20 replies to this topic

[Nev]

I am a classic Jaguar enthusiast as well as club-level racer. I am now lucky enough to be able to fulfil a long-standing ambition of building (and hopefully racing) a copy of Jaguar's XJ13 prototype racer.

I have recently acquired an original prototype V12 which is in the process of being repatriated back to the UK. Details of this engine and my project may be seen on my blog at www.xj13.eu

I would welcome any advice, history, comments, observations etc that will help me piece together the early history of this important engine.



Thanks!

Neville

[elansprint72]

The real thing at Le Mans Classic 06.

Edited by elansprint72, 11 March 2010 - 20:15.

[Nev]

The real thing at Le Mans Classic 06.

Excellent image Pete I also enjoyed browsing the other images on your website - thanks for including the link.

[elansprint72]

Excellent image Pete I also enjoyed browsing the other images on your website - thanks for including the link.

Thanks Nev, I think that I must have other shots of this wonderful car from over the years. As an engineer I can't help thinking that the amount of air required by all those inlets on full chat must surely have been seriously restricted by the lack of entry points to the plenum under the perspex and the sheer speed of the wind over the body. Hindsight, eh?

Please keep us posted with your progress.

Edited by elansprint72, 11 March 2010 - 22:12.

[VAR1016]

Congratulations.

I am a Lucas Injection fanatic, and welcomed the opportunity once at a Goodwood Festival to have a good look at the XJ13. The big treat was a bloke turning up, sitting in the car and firing it up. Blaat, Blaat, Blaat! it went.

I was able to have a look at the injection installation and was interested to see that it had the axially-mounted injectors which I coveted severely for my own little project.

[Wirra]

I'm sure those keen on the XJ13 are familiar with this site, but just in case:

http://www.vehicleen...u/xj13/xj13.htm

[Nev]

As an engineer I can't help thinking that the amount of air required by all those inlets on full chat must surely have been seriously restricted by the lack of entry points to the plenum under the perspex and the sheer speed of the wind over the body. Hindsight, eh?

Yes - the same thing occurred to me! It is interesting to note that many of the current replicas have a series of holes cut into the perspex in an attempt (a vain attempt?) to improve airflow. I would imagine, even if sufficient air is available, power could be sacrificed simply because of the inlet air temperature?

[Nev]

I was able to have a look at the injection installation and was interested to see that it had the axially-mounted injectors which I coveted severely for my own little project.

I must admit that the Lucas setup will be a VERY steep learning curve for me! I have already put out feelers for a suitable V12 system but, sadly for me, they all seem firmly attached to Maseratis and Ferraris - with corresponding stratospheric prices ... I will keep looking. Does anyone know of a reliable, UK-based specialist on these systems?

[VAR1016]

I must admit that the Lucas setup will be a VERY steep learning curve for me! I have already put out feelers for a suitable V12 system but, sadly for me, they all seem firmly attached to Maseratis and Ferraris - with corresponding stratospheric prices ... I will keep looking. Does anyone know of a reliable, UK-based specialist on these systems?

For your type of project, I would suggest Bob Blurton - PM me.

Edited by VAR1016, 12 March 2010 - 08:30.

[bradbury west]

... As an engineer I can't help thinking that the amount of air required by all those inlets on full chat must surely have been seriously restricted by the lack of entry points to the plenum under the perspex and the sheer speed of the wind over the body. Hindsight, eh?

Pete, I am not being hostile, and I have not checked the books for the photos of the body/screen spec of the original car, but as a non-engineer could someone reming me just how fast Norman Dewis and David Hobbs lapped MIRA.. wasn't it something like 178mph before ND's crash? Seems like the system worked well enough. There was an article a while back on the recommissioning of the original.
Roger Lund

[Sharman]

Roger
Quite agree with you in the basic premise. However, it was an undeveloped prototype, presumably the progress would have been continual in the light of experimental results, do you recall how pretty and unfussy the protype Lola Gt looked at the Racing Car Show at the Horticultural Hall.
John

[Pullman99]

I am a classic Jaguar enthusiast as well as club-level racer. I am now lucky enough to be able to fulfil a long-standing ambition of building (and hopefully racing) a copy of Jaguar's XJ13 prototype racer. Neville

I know that there have been a few "XJ13"s built using the production V12 Jaguar engine. I do seem to recall one (in Ecosse Blue) that was constructed in the early 1980s and turned up to the Coventry Motoring Festival in 1985. Can't quite remember who built that one but it did have an original twin-cam V12 and some runnign gear presumably left over from the prototype's development. I think it took part in the parade and I remember seeing it in the Paddock (actually the area behind Coventry's Market).

I saw the original car at its public debut (after being rebuilt) at the British Grand Prix at Silverstone in 1973 driven by "Lofty" England. Great sight and sound. OT (but related) Colin Vandervell demonstrated the Ferrair Thinwall Special on the same day (and nearly collected a JPS liveried Asutin Allegro that had strayed onto the track at the wrong time!).

[Nev]

I know that there have been a few "XJ13"s built using the production V12 Jaguar engine. I do seem to recall one (in Ecosse Blue) that was constructed in the early 1980s and turned up to the Coventry Motoring Festival in 1985.

I was interested to read your post. However, to the best of my knowledge, there is only one XJ13 copy in existence that was built around a claimed original V12 quad-cam prototype and that was the copy built by Wingfield for the Jaguar collector Walter Hill - although the body silhouette is incorrect as it was actually partly scaled up from a 1:18 model! His collection has since been dispersed. Does anyone else recall such a car at Coventry in 1985?

[Nev]

I know that there have been a few "XJ13"s built using the production V12 Jaguar engine. I do seem to recall one (in Ecosse Blue) that was constructed in the early 1980s and turned up to the Coventry Motoring Festival in 1985.

Is this the car you saw? It was taken in Coventry in 1985 (it is the original .....) XJ13 in Coventry 1985

[Leigh Trevail]

I was interested to read your post. However, to the best of my knowledge, there is only one XJ13 copy in existence that was built around a claimed original V12 quad-cam prototype and that was the copy built by Wingfield for the Jaguar collector Walter Hill - although the body silhouette is incorrect as it was actually partly scaled up from a 1:18 model! His collection has since been dispersed. Does anyone else recall such a car at Coventry in 1985?

Apparently when Bryan Wingfield started to build his copy of the XJ13; Jaguar were in favour, however after a change of management they were less than cooperative. However one individual was on his side and let him make drawings of the original using a flexy curve, these Bryan still had up until a couple of years ago. After the car had been finished Jaguar realised that they had the car booked to be displayed somewhere in Europe and then America, but did not allow enough time to transport it over there. Cap in hand they came to Bryan and he let his car be taken to the states.

The engine Bryan used was tested in a MK X / 420G by Norman Dewis, somewhere I have the manifolds here that were used on that car but obviously of no use to Bryan!

[Ray Bell]

Fuel injection...

When the late Kevin Carrad decided to put Lucas mechanical injection on his V12 E-type (a project that included Carrillo rods, Cosworth pistons, later model heads and an abundance of other stuff... and which was never completed AFAIK), he set up two sets of 6-cyl injection from Triumph TR5 or TR6 engines.

[VAR1016]

Fuel injection...

When the late Kevin Carrad decided to put Lucas mechanical injection on his V12 E-type (a project that included Carrillo rods, Cosworth pistons, later model heads and an abundance of other stuff... and which was never completed AFAIK), he set up two sets of 6-cyl injection from Triumph TR5 or TR6 engines.

That is one solution of course, but I doubt that the two 6mm systems would actually provide enough fuel for an engine that I suppose was expected to make in excess of 500BHP. I have no data on the system used on the XJ13, but I would imagine that it was an 8mm device - and with twin shuttles too!

Mind you, when I was developing my "special" I used injection that came from a 1600FVA engine. I spoke with Cosworth about the fuel cam and was told that the FVA made 230HP at 10250 rpm (rather more than my 1600 Lancia Fulvia!). However, extrapolating to large-capacity engines never seems to work does it?

Edited by VAR1016, 12 March 2010 - 20:22.

[elansprint72]

Pete, I am not being hostile, and I have not checked the books for the photos of the body/screen spec of the original car, but as a non-engineer could someone reming me just how fast Norman Dewis and David Hobbs lapped MIRA.. wasn't it something like 178mph before ND's crash? Seems like the system worked well enough. There was an article a while back on the recommissioning of the original.
Roger Lund

Roger,
178mph seems small potatoes compared to the on-paper output spec of the motor in that chassis. As far as I could see the only way air could get into to top area of the engine was via those puny louvres on the flanks (I'm assuming that at high speed any under-car apertures would be trying to drag air out of the engine bay). At full chat the front louvre would be catching air but the following ones would progressively be in the wind shadow of the preceding ones. The only way to avoid this is to make each one successively higher, or bin the lot and put a big scoop/Naca duct there.

It's been a long while since I sat with a slide-rule trying to figure this stuff out properly, but often if something looks wrong/right it often is.

[Pullman99]

Is this the car you saw? It was taken in Coventry in 1985 (it is the original .....) XJ13 in Coventry 1985

I'm not sure if this was taken at the same event as I believe that there was more than one "on the streets day". The XJ13 I saw there was, I believe, the Wingfield car built up around an original engine. The finish was of a very high standard and I'm pretty certain it was finished in Ecurie Ecosse blue.

Was there also one of the "C" and "D" Type reproduction companies listing a glassfibre bodied "XJ13" at one stage using the production V-12?

Anyway, despite all of that, I wish you every success with your project and would hope that the Jaguar and Daimler Trust would be able to offer advice and acccess to drawings. Good luck!

Edited by Pullman99, 18 March 2010 - 06:08.

[eagledyno]

Re the injection system: You should try Kinsler in the USA (www.kinsler.com). They do a lot of consant flow/Lucas injection systems. Their catalogue .pdf is well worth downloading for informational purposes.

Colin

[Nev]

Re the injection system: You should try Kinsler in the USA (www.kinsler.com). They do a lot of consant flow/Lucas injection systems. Their catalogue .pdf is well worth downloading for informational purposes.

Colin

Thanks - I have added a few more pics to my blog at www.xj13.eu for anyone interested.