61 replies to this topic

[fines]

I can remember having read a short note in the German magazine "Motorsport aktuell", some time in the very early nineties, stating that Jorge de Bagration was an emigrant prince from either Armenia or Grusinia in the defunct USSR, but for the life of me I have never been able to locate that small note later on. Can any of our Spanish friends shed light on this?

[jarama]

fines,

Jorge de Bagration was from Georgia, but living ,exiled in Spain.

Nowadays, I don't know if he's come back home, after the downfall of the old USSR, but I think he's living still here. Maybe Felix can let us know more...

[fines]

Jarama, thanks!

I think I recall he was returning home, then. Do you remember his real name?

[Hans Etzrodt]

Fines,
When are you sleeping and what are you doing up so late/early?

[fines]

Hans, I am a robot, I don't need no sleep... peep peep - Damn, I'm malfunctioning!

Seriously, I got to go to bed now. Good night!

[jarama]

fines,

Now I can add a few more stuff about Jorge de Bagration, though I don't know nothing about his real name, if this isn't true.

Jorge was born in Roma, Italy, around 1945, though his family moved to Madrid when he was only 6 months old and this would be his residence throughout the exile time, until he went to Georgia once the USSR was dissolved -I don't know if this is the word-, as a heir of the crown.

[jarama]

fines, or someone else of course,

BTW, let me know if you're interested in some kind of info regarding as a racing record or so about Jorge de Bagration.

[fines]

Yes, Jarama, that would be nice since Bagration was an exceptionally versatile racer, competing in F2, Sports Cars and even Rallies, to my knowledge. Should be interesting!

[Rainer Nyberg]

I have only some notes about this man.
I believe his real name was :
Giorgi Bagrationi Mukhrani (descendant of Giorgi XII ?)
If he lives today he is 56.

I believe he returned to Georgia in 1991 during the uprising against communism. Not sure what happenend after that.



Rainer

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by Rainer Nyberg
I believe his real name was : Giorgi Bagrationi Mukhrani. If he lives today he is 56.I believe he returned to Georgia in 1991 during the uprising against communism. Not sure what happenend after that.

OK, sorry to have been away, but as some of you know I have a seven months kid that is now my main priority

Part One : non-racing facts

Prince GEORGE BAGRATION of MOUKHRANI,(the "official" name of Jorge), was born in Rome the 22nd February 1944, son of Prince Irakly. He assumed the Headship of the Royal House of Bagration of Georgia, taking the title Royal Highness in 1977, when his father died in Madrid.

Georgia is a mountainous country of 27,000 square miles and 5 million people, located on the Black Sea at the eastern edge of Europe. It is bordered by Armenia, Turkey and Azerbaijan, and on the north by the Caucasus mountains and Russia.

The Bagrations have had royal status for over one thousand years, having occupied the throne of the independent Kingdom of Georgia until that kingdom was somehow devoured by Russia in the nineteenth century. As such, the Bagrations today are no different legally from other dynasties that remain royal families, despite having lost their thrones in the nineteenth century. Most prominent among such dethroned royal families is the Bourbon dynasty of France (dethroned in 1830), but the list also includes the Bourbon-Sicilies dynasty of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies (dethroned in 1860), the Bourbon-Orleans dynasty of France (dethroned in 1848), and the Bonaparte dynasty (which ruled France twice for short periods, from 1804-1815 and from 1852-1871).

Georgia lost its independence in the nineteenth century, regained it briefly from 1918 to 1921 (when Soviet Russian troops invaded), and became an independent country again in 1991, after the disintegration of the Soviet Union.

The monarchist movement was in the news in 1995 when Jorge de Bagration (as Head of the Georgian Royal Family and pretender to the Georgian throne) made his first visit to Georgia.

The purpose of Jorge’s visit was to escort the remains of his grandfather, also named Price George Bagration, who died in 1957 as an exile in Spain. A solemn funeral mass was sung in Sioni Cathedral in Tblisi by the Patriarch of the Georgian Orthodox Church. President Shevarnadze attended the mass.

Originally posted by Rainer Nyberg
(descendant of Giorgi XII ?)

Yes, Rainer. In the late eighteenth century, King Irakly II of Georgia, an Orthodox Christian, was threatened by the Islamic rulers of Persia and Turkey. He turned to Russia, his Christian neighbor, for protection. In 1783, Empress Catherine the Great of Russia and King Irakly II signed the Treaty of Georgievsk, in which Russia guaranteed the territorial integrity of the Georgian kingdom in return for
control of Georgia’s foreign policy. The treaty also guaranteed the royal status of the Bagratid dynasty.
But then in 1795, the Persian shah, Aga Muhammad, demanded King Irakly to acknowledge Persian sovereignty over Georgia or face the consequences. King Irakly refused and the Persians then invaded. No Russian assistance was provided, but the old King, more than eighty years old, managed
to repulse the invaders three times before he was outnumbered and defeated. Finally, the Russians intervened and pushed out the Persians.

In 1798 Irakly II died and was succeeded by his son, King George XII. Fearing the Persian threat, King George suggested to Empress Catherine’s son and successor Tsar Paul I, that he incorporate Georgia into the Russian Empire
while allowing the Bagrations to continue to bear the title of King. (A similar arrangement existed in Germany in the late nineteenth century, when the German emperor ruled over an empire in which he was the sovereign of the Kings of Bavaria, Wurttenberg, and Saxony.) At first, Emperor Paul agreed, but in the end he simply seized the country, putting an end to the long reign of the Bagrations.

I think Jorge now lives in Marbella, just a couple of kilometers away from here. I have a pending subject to discuss with him (see next message) so it´s not out of the question that I ask him for a meeting sometime in the near future.

Felix

[Felix Muelas]

Part Two (but not last) : Racing facts

This is what we call starting from the end but as it´s not exactly a chronological question, I will allow myself the pleasure of breaking the rules (once again);)

Four years ago, when I took my -well earned, in my humble opinion- sabbatical year to concentrate on investigation about some racing facts & figures, one of the first subjects that I had in my list was Jorge de Bagration. With a reason!

I had been maintaining that Jorge was an entrant on the official list of the Spanish Grand Prix 1974, and that a Surtees decorated in the colours of his sponsors (namely Escudería Calvo Sotelo and El Corte Inglés) had been produced. Well, not only produced, I had seen it!.

Curiously enough, nobody seemed to remember that fact, and to be honest, I had strated to think that the whole story might have been a figment of my imagination. When Paul Sheldon released his Volume 10 at the start of 1996 -I think- and there was no mention in the entry list to Jorge I began to get really upset!

If only because the list included poor Silvio Moser (that of course never made it, because he was dying in a hospital after his accident on the 1000 kms of Monza, I think) and the two "suspected" Bretscher cars, the Brabhams BT42-5 and BT42-6. My friends Racer.Demon and Joao Paulo Cunha probably still remember how I made a "casus belli" about these issues, but that happened after my investigation.

To cut a long story short, and after several visits to the National Library in Madrid and the Real Automovil Club de España (and my beloved friends at Jarama) I came to the following conclussions :

a) Jorge de Bagration had made all steps in order to take part in the Spanish Grand Prix 1974. He had been entered in the race under the rule that we know as "local hero", contacted Surtees for a car, the car was painted, number 29, presented to the press and, in the last very moment-the week prior to the race- the deal with El Corte Inglés fell trough.
Jorge was, at the time, writing a weekly column in the magazine "Autopista" -that were the people contracted to make the official programs, btw- and reading those columns is self-explanatory.

b) So why, if he is included in the official program (to late to modify it, you can imagine) he is not included in any of the books that deal with the Spanish Grand Prix of 1974, not even as DNA?
The story, and I swear this is the result of my personal investigation, is that there was never an official entry list for the Spanish Grand Prix of 1974. So it´s only logical that researchers, after that date, have had to rely on other sources -except the official ones-!

Why was that, one will wonder? Well, the "official" lists of entrants was something that was organised like this : a couple of telex crossed between teams and organisers, stapled together, with a covering note made on a typing machine and some hanwritten notes. A stamp at the end of the covering note made the thing "official".

Now, believe it or not, when the chairman of the Spanish Federation lost the elections (and I will use my lawyer background to avoid mentioning his name now) -those had happened a Friday- he went to the office on Saturday -everything closed- and, with the help of some of his colleagues, he took in boxes every document that he could, specially the ones concerning his years in office. They drove to his weekend house, in the sierra de Madrid, and unloaded the boxes in his garage where, and this is a guess, they might still be lying.

Why the new Chairman never took any action about this is beyond reasonable understanding but, after twenty years in office those facts have remained undusted. The question remains that, within those documents, every single document related to the Spanish Grand Prix 1974 vanished...

A colateral effect of this is that I convinced Mattijs - our Racer.Demon-,the late Dennis Clayton and Darren Galpin that the inclusion of Jorge de Bagration in the entry list (and hence in their websites) of the Spanish Grand Prix 1974 was, if he trusted my investigations, undoubted. They believed me, and included Jorge in their records. As nobody else did that, the said inclusion was good enough for me to trace who was "copying" the Clayton records once poor Dennis died. Again, prudence will guide me, and I will not release any names. What I can assure is that "nobody" noticed the "strange" inclusion of Jorge de Bagration in some of those lists or, if they did, never asked me for an explanation...

Subject closed, Felix irritated -again-.
I will, if jarama doesn´t do it before, collect some racing data about Jorge de Bagration and post it later.

Un abrazo

Felix
[p][Edited by Felix Muelas on 11-25-2000]

[Boniver]

Jorge was (also ?) an entrant on the official list of the Spanish Grand Prix of 1968
With Soler-Roig (Sp) he had the “Escuderia Calvo Sotello Team/Escuderia Nacional” and will start with a Lola 100 Ford car. But the car was not competitive . It was a F2 car

It was the same Lola Ford SL100 that I had drive in 1968 in the F2
Barcelona 9° on 11 r
Pau out
Madrid 6° on 3 r
Crystal Palace out
Monza dnq
Zandvoort 14°in Heat 2 -not in final
Reims out

[fines]

Thank you, Felix, wonderful stories!!

However, one thing still bugs me, and that's my inability to find the original note in the "msa" issue. To be precise, it gets me absolutely ! Reading all this I suppose it appeared there somewhere in 1991, maybe when Georgia became independent. Someone with the exact date of this? Wait a sec... I just found out myself: Apr 9! Maybe that's a clue... ?

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by Boniver
Jorge was (also ?) an entrant on the official list of the Spanish Grand Prix of 1968. With Soler-Roig (Sp) he had the “Escuderia Calvo Sotello Team/Escuderia Nacional” and will start with a Lola 100 Ford car

Boniver,

Excellent research. Thanks.

Whilst reviewing some of my papers about the "Escudería Nacional Calvo Sotelo" (don´t worry, I will not expand on this one, at least not today) it suddenly came to my attention a combination of two factors that might explain the sudden -to put a word to it- withdrawal of the deal that was to see Jorge at the wheel of a F1 car for the Spanish Grand Prix. As this is pure speculation on my part, I will have to check this with him!

First question is that Escuderia Nacional Calvo Sotelo lasted from 1968 to 1973. In that year, with Alex Soler-Roig retiring, the Escudería changed its status, and dissolved the team, maintaining a policy of sponsorship instead. So this element will maybe explain how a member of the Escudería like Jorge de Bagration needed some extra funding for his proposed one-off F1, as the entrant would not have been the Escudería itself (as non existent in 1974).

Second discovery relates to the economics behind the Empresa Nacional Calvo Sotelo, an small state-owned oil company. I found this afternoon that the Calvo Sotelo merged in 1974 with two other minor refinery companies. Maybe, just maybe, Jorge´s need for sponsorship from the company that he had been racing for the previous six years...came in the wrong moment! Another speculation on my part, and another subject to follow.

When (and if) I post details about the Escuderia Nacional Calvo Sotelo I will include Jorge´s racing record previous to 1968, but I am very short of info on his rallying activities (he was a very successful rallyman in the second part of the seventies and into the eighties) so maybe someone else could take over that part...

Un abrazo
Felix

[Don Capps]

Georgia was also the home of a certain Josif Dujisvilli (not exactly as I would usually translate it, but it sounds correct this way) who had something to do with the USSR...

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by Don Capps
Georgia was also the home of a certain Josif Dujisvilli

Gori, to be accurate. You mean of course the Man of the Year 1942 (courtesy of Time magazine), Joseph Vissarionovich Djugashvili (Dzhugashvili) AKA Zakhar Grigoryan Melikyants AKA STALIN...

Don, I jave to reckon that you have a weird sense of humour!
;)

Felix

[Ray Bell]

Permit me, please, to be suitably fascinated. But almost as fascinating is the fact that nobody mentions contemporary reports such as Autosport and Motor Sport. Surely they would have mentioned it as an entry withdrawn?

[Alvega]

Sorry to pop in this way...

I remember seeing Jorge de Bagration racing at the Estoril circuit, circa 1978-1979, in a Lancia Stratos. He lapped everibody in the field, including a Portuguese driver in a much more powerfull De Tomaso Pantera.

[jarama]

Alvega,

Maybe was at 1982. From 1976 to 1981, at the wheel of his Lancia Stratos, Jorge was one of the contenders for the Spanish Rally Championship. Then, for the 1982 season, converted the same car to circuit specifications and went on to win the "Campeonato de España de Velocidad en Circuito", open to Special Touring Cars.

[Alvega]

Jarama,

You are probably right about 1982. Do you know if that particular race was also valid for the Spanish championship ?

[jarama]

Alvega,

Actually, the 1st. and 3rd. meetings were held at Estoril, being the dates 11 of April and 20 of June.

[jarama]

fines,

I'm back to this topic, with the racing record of Jorge de Bagration at a glance, in a shallow and brief way:

1959 to 1963: motorcycling.

'63: first car, Fiat 1600 S, rallying and hillclimbs.

'64: Fiat Abarth 850, rallying and hillclimbs.

'65: Mini Cooper, rallying and hillclimbs.
(two o/a wins in rallying and one in h.c.)
Rallye Bayonne-Côte Basque, first semi-works drive, Alpine Renault A110.

'66: Mini Cooper.
Works Renault 8.

'67: Trofeo Inauguración Circuito del Jarama (New race track-first race ever): 2nd to Mauro Bianchi, both of them at the wheel of works Alpine Renault M67's.
Spanish Rally Championship: 2nd, Lancia Fulvia HF.
Rallye RACE and Rallye Costa del Sol, 7th and 2nd respectively, driving semi-works Lancia Fulvia HF's.
G.P. de Madrid F3, Jarama, debut in single-seater racing.

'68: Jarama, F3, Brabham BT21, 2nd to Reine Wisell.
Euro F2 Championship: Lola T100, no points scored.
Rallye Camino de la Plata, semi-works Lancia Fulvia HF, 3rd.
Occasionally, drives his own Lancia Fulvia HF in Spanish circuit meetings.

'69: Spanish Touring and Specials Championships: 1st, BMW 2002 and Porsche 911.
24 Heures de Spa, Porsche 911 shared with Pianta, DNF.
12 Horas de Barcelona, Porsche 908 shared with Álex Soler-Roig, FL.
Euro Touring Championship, BMW, Budapest and Belgrado races, 2nd and 3rd respectively.

'70: 200 Millas de Buenos Aires, Porsche 908 shared with Carlos Reutemann, 6th.
Carrera en Cuesta al Montseny, Euro Hillclimb Championship, Porsche 908, 1st.
4 Horas del Jarama, ETC, Alfa Romeo GTAm, 3rd.
6 Horas del Jarama, Porsche 908 shared with Reine Wisell, 2nd.
Torneio do Brasil, -Temporada-, four races held, three of them at Sâo Paulo and the remaining at Interlagos, Porsche 908, being 1st, 3rd, 4th and 3rd. Final result, 2nd to Emerson Fittipaldi.
Spanish Hillclimb and Circuits Championship, 1st, Porsche 908.

'71: Spanish Prototypes & Sportscars Championship, 2nd, Porsche 908/1.
Spanish Touring & Specials Championship, 3rd, Alfa Romeo GTAm.
Spanish Hillclimb Championship, 1st, Porsche 908/1.

'72: 1000 Kms de Buenos Aires, Porsche 908/3 shared with Juan Fernández, 6th.
24 Heures du Mans, Lola T290 Ford Cosworth, shared with Hughes de Fierlant and Gérard Larrousse, DNF.
Euro 2-litre Championship, Lola T290 and Abarth Osella PA1, best result being 3rd at the Nürburgring 500 Km. at the wheel of the Lola.

'73: 1000 Km de Dijon, Chevron B23 FVC, DNF.
24 Heures du Mans, Chevron B23 shared with Juncadella, DNF.
20º Circuito de Vila Real, Chevron B23, 3rd.
Euro 2-litre Championship, Chevron B23, best result being 4th at the 400 Km de Barcelona.
Occasionally drives a Ford Capri RS in the Spanish Circuits Championship.

'74: After his vain attempt at the Spanish GP -see upper post by Felix Muelas-, the Prince cuts down his involvement in racing, being his best result achieved at the Misano Euro 2-litre meeting, where he finishes 6th placed at the wheel of an Abarth Osella PA2.

'76: Towards the season's end Jorge comes back to rallying, winning the Rallye de España at the wheel of the all-mighty Lancia Stratos HF.

'77: Jorge is one of the favourites for the Spanish Rally Champìonship. Alas, at half the season, while disputing the Criterium Luis de Baviera, suffers one awful crash claiming the life of his navigator, Manuel Barbeito, and putting nearly an end to his racing activities.

'78: Comeback to the Spanish Rally Championship, again at the wheel of the Lancia Stratos HF, being navigated by Nuria Llopis and finishing in 2nd position behind Antonio Zanini's Fiat Abarth 131 Rally.

'79: Spanish Rally Champion, Lancia Stratos HF, with Nuria Llopis again.

'80: Runner-up in the Spanish Rally Championship at the wheel of his faithful Lancia Stratos HF, behind Antonio Zanini's Porsche 911SC.

'81: Spanish Rally Champion again, this time navigated by Víctor Sabater. Jorge says goodbye to rallying.

'82: In his final season, Jorge comes back to the Spanish Circuits Championship, with his Stratos slightly adapted to the new use and wins a new tittle.

[Felix Muelas]

Jarama,

Olé !

;)

Felix

[fines]

Jarama!

Thanks and, err... Olé!

[cjpani]

Absolutely amazing!!!!
I never imagined I could learn so much...
I have to recognize your (everybody´s) knowledge, passion and research abilities
Thanks for the great history-geography-socio/political-automotive-research you all have done here!!!
Best Regards,
cjpani
p.s. Olé!!!!

[jarama]

cjpani,

very nice "Signature", this one with the 917K and the 512S.

[Felix Muelas]

Jarama

I do somehow suspect that the "signature" (I agree beautiful) might also be related to cjpani´s birthday or birth date...

Am I right?


Felix

[jarama]

Felix, fines, cjpani,

thank you for your kind words about my work regarding Bagration's racing record.

[cjpani]

Jarama: Indeed exclent writing.. , your signature is also excelent!!!!!
Felix: Nada que ver con mi cumpleaños, solo coincidencia, pero gracias (assuming you speak spanish, of course)

Best regards,
cjpani

[Boniver]

Euro F2 Championship: Lola T100, no points scored

de Bagration was 17° in the Euro F2 Championship with 2 points
1968


Hochenheim forfet
Thruxton forfet
Jarama 6
Crystal Palace DNF
Tulln no entry
Zandvoort DNF
Enna no entry
Hochenheim forfet
Vallelunga forfet

Jarama

1 Beltoise Matra 60
2 Rindt Brabham 60 graded driver ineligible for points
3 Ahrens Brabham 60
4 Pescarolo Matra 60
5 Regazzoni Tecno 59
6 de Bagration Lola 57

[jarama]

Thank you, Boniver,

maybe there are a few other mistakes in my research job, so feel free to correct it, please.

[Francis]

Here are some more details of Jorge de Bagration's 1968 Formula 2 season driving a Lola T100-FVA entered by Escuderia Nacional CS.

• 31.03 - Montjuich Park, Gran Premio de Barcelona,(No.18) Finished: 9th
  
• 21.04 - Pau, Grand Prix Automobile de Pau, (No.32) Retired: 16 laps
  
• 28.04 - Jarama, Gran Premio de Madrid, EC Round 3, (No.2) Finished: 6th
  
• 03.06 - Crystal Palace, London Trophy, EC Round 4,(No.24)
  • Heat 2: Retired: 13 laps
  • Final: Did Not Qualify
• 23.06 - Monza, Gran Premio della Lotteria di Monza, (No.5) Did Not Qualify
  
• 28.07 - Zandvoort, Grote Prijs van Zandvoort, EC Round 6,(No.11)
  • Heat 2: Finished: 14th
  • Final: Did Not Qualify
• 09.09 - Reims, Grand Prix de Reims,(No.48) Retired: 6 laps

[p][Edited by Francis on 12-09-2000]

[William Hunt]

Felix , u talked about :

"the two "suspected" Bretscher cars, the Brabhams BT42-5 and BT42-6." (quote)

What do U mean with this ?

[dmj]

24 Heures du Mans, Lola T290 Ford Cosworth, shared with Hughes de Fierlant and Gérard Larrousse, DNF.

Automobile Year for 1972 states different drivers lineup: de Fierlant. de Bagration, de Cabral. Car is stated as Lola T280, they were 9th in practice, led after two hours (!) and retired in 8th hour of the race, no reason given.
So it is possibly that our man Jorge even led most famous race in the world!!!

BTW: Larrousse drove for Matra that year so I believe AY's lineup to be correct.

[Frank de Jong]

Well, since Jorge's F2 career is so nicely illustrated, its my turn to show his ETC career (what else?), as far as I know now. Any additions are, as usual, most welcome.

1968, Jarama, ETC round 11: 8th overall, 6th in class, BMW 2002
1969, Monza, ETC round 1: 6th overall (with Locatelli), 3th in class, BMW 2002
1969, Belgrade, ETC round 3: 3th or 4th overall (divisions 2-3), 3th in class, BMW 2002
1969, Budapest, ETC round 4: 2nd overall, 2nd in class, BMW 2002
1969, Spa 24h, ETC round 8: DNF (with Giorgio Pianta), Porsche 911
1969, Jarama, ETC round 10: 2nd overall, 2nd in class, Porsche 911
1970, Jarama, ETC round 9: 3rd overall, 3rd in class, Alfa Romeo 2000 GTAm
1971, Monza, ETC round 1: DNQ, Ford Capri RS?
1971, Zandvoort, ETC round 9: ?, Ford Capri RS
1972, Monza, ETC round 1: 7th overall, 4th in class (with Raffael Barrios), Alfa Romeo 2000 GTAm
1974, Zandvoort, ETC round 5: ?, (with Emilio de Villota), Ford Capri RS
1975, Zandvoort, ETC round 5: ?, (with Emilio de Villota), Ford Capri RS
1975, Jarama, ETC round 6: 2nd overall, 2nd in class (with Emilio de Villota and Mario Cabral), Ford Capri RS
1977, Estoril, ETC round 11: 8th overall, 1st in class (with Orlandis), Alfa Romeo Alfasud Sprint

So an ETC career spanning some 10 years, some good overall placings and a class win at the end. And I've seen him driving twice...

[Mischa Bijenhof]

As a 'rookie' on this forum I don't want to be a burden to anybody, but I can't find anything on Jorge de Bagrations efforts to start in the 1968 Spanish GP. Could someone help me out?

[Rainer Nyberg]

Check out post #12 and 14 in this thread, they mention the 1968 'entry'.

[Kuwashima]

Actually Rainer, from what I can tell post #14 mainly deals with the '74 entry. It would appear Jorge attempted to enter the Spanish GP twice:

- first in 1968 where he entered alongside Alex Soler-Roig with team 'Escuderia Nacional Calvo Sotelo' but for some unknown reason they didn't attend,

- and in 1974 (about which Felix has written quite a lot in post #11), where Jorge was entered, the car was painted, number 29, presented to the press and, in the last very moment (the week prior to the race) his deal with El Corte Inglés fell trough.

I doubt anyone will be able to shed more light on why the '68 entry failed to materialise, but here's hoping! Anyone?

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Kuwashima
Actually Rainer, from what I can tell post #14 mainly deals with the '74 entry. It would appear Jorge attempted to enter the Spanish GP twice:

- first in 1968 where he entered alongside Alex Soler-Roig with team 'Escuderia Nacional Calvo Sotelo' but for some unknown reason they didn't attend,

- and in 1974 (about which Felix has written quite a lot in post #11), where Jorge was entered, the car was painted, number 29, presented to the press and, in the last very moment (the week prior to the race) his deal with El Corte Inglés fell trough.

I doubt anyone will be able to shed more light on why the '68 entry failed to materialise, but here's hoping! Anyone?

The question of Bagration's '74 entry has cropped up on the Usenet group rec.autos.sport.f1 - does anyone know what TS16 chassis he was going to drive?

Looking at Allen's site, I'd pin my suspicions on TS16/03 or TS16/01, on the basis that the team's regular drivers ran '02 and '04, and '05 didn't make its debut until much later that season... can anyone cast any light on this?

cheers
pete

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by petefenelon
... I'd pin my suspicions on TS16/03 or TS16/01 ...

Pete,

On memory alone I somehow remember TS16/03 as being the answer. But I have to confirm.
Where did that appear? In the original entry list that was published by the weekly Autopista magazine the week prior to the race. Having lost my copy, I went to the National Lybrary six or seven years ago to get a photocopy. Now I do not know where it is...just misplaced in this space/time context

One thing that I have not been able to provide (yet) is a copy of the colour scheme applied to the car. As I have told, there´s only two possible options (well, three) :

a) I saw the drawing on a magazine at the time. Not being Autopista, it might be Velocidad ...
b) I actually saw the car at Jarama being presented to the press (or maybe not exactly to the press, as we have never found a picture of that "presentation"...)
c) I just imagined the aspect of the car based on the comments that, at the time, Jorge de Bagration himself used to write on Autopista...

un abrazo

fm

[dmj]

Maybe someone of our new members can enlighten me on a question I posted earlier in this thread: Automobile Year for 1972 states following Le Mans drivers lineup: de Fierlant. de Bagration, de Cabral. Car is stated as Lola T280, they were 9th in practice, led after two hours (!) and retired in 8th hour of the race, no reason given. So, can anyone confirm if Jorge de Bagration actually led the most famous endurance race in the world?

[Jeremy Jackson]

Not really a new member...

But, according to Autosport and "Time and two Seats", de Fierlant was driving the car when it led, but when it's scheduled stop came round, the "more experienced" Larrousse was put in the car instead of de Bagration or cabral, due to the damp conditions.

So, sorry that Jorge himself didn't actually lead!

Jeremy

[dmj]

How it came that Larousse drove that car while he also drove for Matra that year??? It still puzzles me...

[Jeremy Jackson]

Larrousse drove for Bonnier in all the World Championship races, plus a couple of European 2-litre championship races in 1972, but didn't drive for Matra until 1973 (Apart from a drive at Clermont-Ferrand in 1971).

So although I'm not certain, I assume he was contracted to the Bonnier team throughout 72.

[Vitesse2]

The Motor Sport report says de Fierlant was leading up to the point where he pitted for fuel at 56 minutes into the race. After that the lead was held by one or other of the three remaining Matras. The information about Larrousse is repeated - DSJ says that the two "paying customers" were very bitter about the Swede's handling of the arrangements as Bonnier was sharing his own car with Gijs van Lennep. The car retired from 5th place soon after dark on Saturday evening when de Fierlant spun and stalled. He was unable to restart as the clutch had gone solid and walked back to the pits. Larrousse then walked out to the car, jammed it in second and started it on the starter motor, rolling forward until he freed the clutch and got the engine running healthily again! He got it back to the pits, but had to retire before being disqualified for a driver change outside the pits!

[dmj]

Thank you, Automobile Year then definitely seems to have wrong driver details for Le Mans.

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by petefenelon


The question of Bagration's '74 entry has cropped up on the Usenet group rec.autos.sport.f1 - does anyone know what TS16 chassis he was going to drive?

Looking at Allen's site, I'd pin my suspicions on TS16/03 or TS16/01, on the basis that the team's regular drivers ran '02 and '04, and '05 didn't make its debut until much later that season... can anyone cast any light on this?

cheers
pete

I've just heard back from John Bladon who has asked John Surtees about this. John said he'd never heard of him and doubted that he had any actual deal with Team Surtees. He said there were lots of middle men around in those days and he probably just thought he had a deal.

Does that fit the facts? Was a car really repainted for him?

Allen

[Paul Parker]

In reply to William Hunt's query about Felix's comments on the 'suspected' Bretscher Racing BT42-5 and BT42-6. One car was entered for Silvio Moser (BT42-6) who of course was already fatally injured at the 1974 Monza 1000KM sports car race but later on Gerard Larrouse shows up in the same car at the Belgium GP at Nivelles according to Sheldon/Rabagliati entered under the same Bretscher Racing. However reference to Steve Small's excellent GRANDS PRIX WHO'S WHO under Larrouse has the car entered by Scuderia Finotto. He qualified and raced here but dnqed at Dijon for the French GP again in BT42-6, with both Sheldon and Small now quoting Scuderia Finotto. In Alan Henry's 'BRABHAM THE GRAND PRIX CARS' the author refers to the Finotto-Bretscher team.

Up in my loft I have 40 years worth of Autosport and Motor Sport but I cannot face trawling through all this just now, so somebody more knowledgeable than I will have to explain this properly. I would just caution those interested parties that some entrants according to Sheldon/Rabagliati during this period do not always agree with other quoted sources, depending on whether you take the main sponsor as in Martini Racing or Motor Racing Developments for Brabham in 1975 for instance. As for BT42-5 this would appear to be Wilson Fittipaldi's 1973 works car for the Italian, Canadian and US GPs, but it does not feature in F1 during 1974 or thereafter, at least according to the usual sources, so this presumably was never used by Bretscher/Finotto. Perhaps Bernie knows, but I'm none the wiser and should have minded my own business!

[Jimmy Piget]

What I understood is that the team was headed by Finotto and financed by Bretscher.
It was intended to run both BT 42 for Moser & Wisell, but it ran on a pay-per-drive basis (Larrousse, Nelleman, Facetti, Koinigg...) which often failed to materialize (entries withdrawn for Manfred Mohr, Andy Sutcliffe, etc.)
Incidentally, I remember an article (with photo) in Autosprint in the 1973/1974 inter-season with Claudio Francisci test-driving one of these BT42.

[Allen Brown]

Finotto definitely owned both these BT42s. They appeared from time to time at GPs and later in more minor racing althought BT42/6 was the only one that raced. Both re-emerged from Italy some years later and are now in private collections.

Allen