42 replies to this topic

[99cent]

I was recently reading a biography on Ross Brawn and I was amazed to find that he doesn't even have a bachelors degree in engineering?! On the other hand, Michael Schumacher's current race engineer Andrew Shovlin has a PHD in Vehicle Dynamics and Control.

Ross Brawn has had to work his way up ladder in Formula 1. He began his career as milling machine operator. Now he is arguably the most talented technical directors in formula 1.

Is it even possible to make it through formula 1 this day and age without any formal post secondary education? Or does work experience matter more?

Ross Brawn working for Haas Team in 1986

Edited by 99cent, 16 March 2010 - 07:19.

[Ross Stonefeld]

These days I'd say no. Not when other engineers have PhD's in racing specialties. Things that wouldn't have really existed, at least not to the extent they do now, when Brawn/Newey/Anderson/etc started out.

In the same way that a long time ago you could kinda drive anything and if you were good end up F1. Now it takes you almost a decade if you include karting.

[mey3059]

I was recently reading a biography on Ross Brawn and I was amazing to find that he doesn't even have a bachelors degree in engineering?! Where as Michael Schumacher's current race engineer Andrew Shovlin has a PHD in Vehicle Dynamics and Control.

Ross Brawn has seemed to work his way up ladder in Formula 1. He began his career as milling machine operator. Now he is arguably the most talented technical directors in formula 1.

Is it even possible to make it through formula 1 this day and age without any formal post secondary education? Or does work experience matter more?

I guess skill is what matters more ... u arent as good as your degree, rather you are as good as your work . He knows his work .

[99cent]

I guess skill is what matters more ... u arent as good as your degree, rather you are as good as your work . He knows his work .

How did he even learn all the technical aspects of thermal-dynamics, aerodynamics, and calculus that may be involved? He must of spent a lot personal time learning everything

[Madras]

I see him more as an organiser than an engineer - remember he doesn't actually design the car.

[Ross Stonefeld]

He may not have a bachelor's degree in engineering, but even before racing he had an engineering background/apprenticeship. So it's not like he went from being a short-order cook to being an F1 designer.

[99cent]

I see him more as an organiser than an engineer - remember he doesn't actually design the car.

Thats True but...

"Brawn was hired by Sir Frank Williams in 1978 as a machinist for the newly formed Williams team. He quickly moved up through the ranks, working in the R&D department and as an aerodynamicist in the team's wind tunnel.
After brief stints with the now-defunct Haas Lola and Arrows F1 teams Brawn's efforts caught the attention of Jaguar, who hired him in 1989. He began work in their sports car racing division, bringing as much F1 technological experience as he could, and succeeded in designing the Jaguar XJR-14 cars which won the 1991 World Sportscar Championship."

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Ross_Brawn

[Speed_Racer]

I see him more as an organiser than an engineer - remember he doesn't actually design the car.

[Burai]

How did he even learn all the technical aspects of thermal-dynamics, aerodynamics, and calculus that may be involved? He must of spent a lot personal time learning everything

He didn't. He employs people that do. Ross is from a time where you used a pencil and ruler to design a racing car. As technology has moved on, so he's employed people that do understand this stuff and removed himself from the nitty gritty of designing a car.

[99cent]

He didn't. He employs people that do. Ross is from a time where you used a pencil and ruler to design a racing car. As technology has moved on, so he's employed people that do understand this stuff and removed himself from the nitty gritty of designing a car.

Yes, thats correct. But I assumed that he needed at least a basic understanding of the car.


Ross Brawn working for Haas Team in 1986

[Anamihamilton]

I was recently reading a biography on Ross Brawn and I was amazed to find that he doesn't even have a bachelors degree in engineering?! On the other hand, Michael Schumacher's current race engineer Andrew Shovlin has a PHD in Vehicle Dynamics and Control.

Ross Brawn has had to work his way up ladder in Formula 1. He began his career as milling machine operator. Now he is arguably the most talented technical directors in formula 1.

Is it even possible to make it through formula 1 this day and age without any formal post secondary education? Or does work experience matter more?

You would find that there are a few people left in F1 without that so called engineering PhD, Todt who merely started out as a racer, Stefano has an education purely in business yet he is leading one of the greatest F1 teams and then take Ron Dennis (I would doubt there is anyone on Ron's level in F1) he began working in F1 at 18 years of age.

These people at the pinnacle of F1 motoring racing learnt about the sport inside the sport, their education, knowledge and sport was/is the actual sport itself, I would call them natural old school learners.

Do I think it is possible for others to followsuit, maybe, but I think it is likely to be a driver we see on a grid today who has not had time to go to University and is once again learning the fabric of F1 whilst being in the sport, the most.

Saying that, Brawn, Todt, Stefano, and Dennis should have been awarded Honorary degree's in engineering by now, surely they have? These special people are as good as professors!

Edited by Anamihamilton, 16 March 2010 - 07:25.

[Burai]

Yes, thats correct. But I assumed that he needed at least a basic understanding of the car.


Ross Brawn working for Haas Team in 1986

He does have a basic understanding of the car. Basic means knowing what things are without actually knowing them.

[Lights]

He sounds like he understands enough of it to do his job of aerodynamicist back then.

Funny how his voice and the way he talks did not change at all.

[stevewf1]

Well, I've known "degreed" people who didn't have much "real world" sense... Good at theory, but lacking the skills to get the job done when it needs to be done.

[Peat]

Funnily enough, Brawn took his apprentiship on the very site i am working at now. And even funnier, one of our senior engineers here bought a mini clubman from Brawn after Ross had won a Mazda by winning a big slotcar tornument.

[taran]

I am a bit surprised this is is considered news. Before F1 became "professional", it was relatively easy for enthusiasts to become involved. An engineering background was an advantage but many people joined as a dogsbody/gofer and worked their way up, usually by nagging team managers for a job until they gave in. In those days, these were poor paying jobs so you needed people who wanted to be in F1 because they could earn more in a regular job.

There were also very few academically trained engineers involved in F1, just as many road cars were built with little scientific research or understanding. It was still an evolving era of automotive engineering in which mavericks could thrive.

These days, F1 (and much of racing) is a closed shop with entry only awarded to people with the right degrees. Much like business in fact. You might still have the odd senior manager who got there by joining as a junior clerk and working his way up but most managers need the necessary degrees.

I believe it was Adrian Reynard (who went to University but never graduated) who said that it was sad but these days people like him (who just built their own racing cars in lower categories and gained their experience the hard way) would not be able to enter racing anymore because most categories where single-manufacturer and teams only hired engineers with degrees.

[Anamihamilton]

Don't think it is news, I just think it is a little discussion. With the rest of your post, you are right Taran.

[DaleCooper]

Ross Brawn is obviously a talented individual. Degrees did not matter as much in the past, hands-on was so much more uselful then, as everything was basically a trial by fire, not a concept born on a computer and researched to death before implementation, as it is done today. Almost every facet of the sport is a science today, from the design of every infinitesimal component of the cars to the regimented diet and exercise program of the drivers. Hence, very specificaly educated individuals are hired to fill a specific niche in a team comprising of hundreds of other focused employees. The past featured small teams with multi-talented jack-of-all-trades people that were depended on to do many often unrelated tasks. It's really the difference between a small business employee and a corporate employee.


Cooper

[glorius&victorius]

I think when he started working on these racing cars he just fell in love... and that passion made him to want to learn every little bit about the dynamics of the car. I am sure he's been reading books etc to gain knowledge.

[Stormsky68]

Its not all about needing engineering degrees (& I have one myself) a degree just gets you an interview.

I've worked with and for some truly terrific (degree-less) engineers who can just see and feel when something is right and when something is wrong, the first Chief Engineer I ever worked for always used to say "if it looks right it generally is".

Skill, feeling, common sense, real world knowledge, experience, passion are all far more valuable.

Edited by Stormsky68, 16 March 2010 - 09:16.

[One]

No news indeed.


Ross is an exceptionally matched person to the formula one racing.

If you have the same quality, then you will make it to the top with the condition that you give everything up for it.

phD does not mean that with it you understand the all aspect of racing. it says that your are very specialized in one subject. So even phD must learn everything about everything if he is the become the top of the heap racing car engineer, director or ...

Ross knows how to practice the knowledge so what more do you want?

[djned]

Ross Brawn working for Haas Team in 1986

love it! thanks!

[Anamihamilton]

The education system was very practical back then, many of them had full mechanical engineering hands on lessons at school, and had jobs in a garage very early in life. I think this is what the edcuation system is missing today.

[MTC]

I would say "who cares". Education, whilst essential, is not the be all indicator of an individual's success. That comes down other factors such a shard work, determination, dedication, intuitiveness, etc. Ross Brawns achievements speaks for itself, and I really couldn't care less if he did a Phd or dropped out of high school.

If anyone has read books by Robert Kiyosaki, he has a saying "the A students end up working for the C students"

[BrendanMcF]

Very few of the "old school" had exceptional academic careers.

Colin Chapman, John Barnard, Gordon Murray, Pat Fry, Eric Broadley, Rory Byrne and many others did not have degree level education relevant to motor racing (Broadley was a quantity surveyor...) Dr. Harvey Postlethwaite, Patrick Head and Robin Herd were the exceptions in having mechanical and physics backgrounds.

Ross Brawn is an exceptional man manager and organiser, and possesses a special ability to provide strategic technical leadership and pick the optimum development direction, that few of his peers can imitate. These are skills that are not learnt from textbooks...

[Dolph]

I'm ashamed to admit that I too have not finished my Bachelors degree. However, that does not mean I do not have any education in my field. In fact I have passed all the courses etc in the university and haven't only completed the thesis - therefore no degree but I do have an education. Furhtermore, I have rised in the corporate ladder very rapidly passing many people with degrees and lots more of experience (I have been promoted three times during less than five years of work). You see, having a university paper is not so important in the end. I'm a good example of it.

[One]

I'm ashamed to admit that I too have not finished my Bachelors degree. However, that does not mean I do not have any education in my field. In fact I have passed all the courses etc in the university and haven't only completed the thesis - therefore no degree but I do have an education. Furhtermore, I have rised in the corporate ladder very rapidly passing many people with degrees and lots more of experience (I have been promoted three times during less than five years of work). You see, having a university paper is not so important in the end. I'm a good example of it.

[pgj]

I was recently reading a biography on Ross Brawn and I was amazed to find that he doesn't even have a bachelors degree in engineering?! On the other hand, Michael Schumacher's current race engineer Andrew Shovlin has a PHD in Vehicle Dynamics and Control.

Ross Brawn has had to work his way up ladder in Formula 1. He began his career as milling machine operator. Now he is arguably the most talented technical directors in formula 1.

Is it even possible to make it through formula 1 this day and age without any formal post secondary education? Or does work experience matter more?

Ross Brawn working for Haas Team in 1986

Interesting. Although it used to be the case that vocational training was the equal of of higher education qualifications. Even a highly qualified person has to be trained to do the job. No-one is qualified to go from the examination room to the F1 design studio without some degree of coaching or grooming. Perhaps F1 has become a little sterile in that respect as Ross is one of the very best there is.

[dgduris]

How did he even learn all the technical aspects of thermal-dynamics, aerodynamics, and calculus that may be involved? He must of spent a lot personal time learning everything

I'm not an engineer and I have a basic understanding of all of those areas. Who says you have to be a degreed engineer?

[V8 Fireworks]

I'm not an engineer and I have a basic understanding of all of those areas. Who says you have to be a degreed engineer?

Exactly, degree has nothing to do with top f1 engineer who knows what's right and what's wrong and how to improve the car ASAP.

99% of the tests in the low-level "degree" are irrelevant and/or extremely basic as Mechanical Engineering is very wide field with everything from composites, metallurgy, manufacturing, control, robotics, suspension, aerodynamics, vibrations, air conditioning, thermodynamics, heat transfer, machine dynamics, acoustics, combustion, mathematics and of course CFD & FEA (i.e. computer science) blah blah blah. Whilst the PhD is liable to be on some super specialised topic that no one cares about, although they may well a super expert in composites or CFD etc in the process may which make them a top performer in Williams composite devision immediately but the degree is not going to help them at all to be the next Patrick Head...

[alfiebengal]

If Flavio Briatore can sucessfully run an F1 team then I'd say that, if anything, Ross is over qualified.

Apart from, perhaps, in the trouser department

[martinfjord]

Ross Brawn working for Haas Team in 1986

Nice one finger typing by Ross in that video Some people just born to do certain jobs and they will be good regardless their education as their brain is 100% focused on becoming what they want to be and absorbing all the relevant knowledge like a sponge.

[FenderJaguar]

I'd say you can teach and educate almost anyone, but SKILL and experience goes way beyond that when it comes to the big picture.

[pingu666]

chad knaus doesnt have much education either....

[Dolph]

What?

[Peat]

Ross on his education

[phil1993]

I went to a Ross Brawn Q&A (he went to my school) and one interesting point I picked up was that when he applied for the job with Frank Williams, he was the second option and only got in because the first guy turned it down. Funny old world.

[99cent]

Ross on his education

great video...but the guy at the start sounds like a robot

[Tenmantaylor]

My dad left school at 14 and started an apprenticeship, I still havnt met anyone in my whole time at university/professional life in design and engineering with his broadness of electric and mechanical engineering skills. Ok hes no Ross Brawn but experience counts for so much. Academia is there to allow the mind to explore areas that the real world of experience can often inhibit but nothing beats being at the coal face both commercially and technically.

[ex Rhodie racer 2]

Sics mumpfs ago I couldn´t even spell engineer, now I are one.

[David M. Kane]

There is substitute for common sense. I met him once in the Customs line at Montreal and he was very nice and very humble.

[ff1600]

Brawn started at the British Atomic Energy Administration or what ever it is called as an engineer trainee. But he did not finish the program. I think some of the very top guys in F1 have degrees in engineering or physics. I know Mansell, Fabi and Donahue were engineers.

[maccaFTW]

He does have a basic understanding of the car. Basic means knowing what things are without actually knowing them.

In other words, Ross is a "generalist." He knows a lot of things, but isn't an expert in those lots of things that he knows.

Being a generalist and good people manager is very useful when, for instance, Ross reads the regulations and finds a loophole that can be exploited, i.e. the DDD. He then hands it off to the Ph.Ds to put the information to work.