19 replies to this topic

[FucF1]

OK You smart people can settle an argument for me.

Whats the best method for braking when racing?

A mate of mine swears by Cadence braking and another says double declutching as well as other terms what do they mean?

Personally I just brake gently then progressivly hard changing down the gears and using engine revs to slow.

But whats the best?

[DangerMouse]

You only tend to use Cadence braking if you've fekked it up in the first place!

Hard (but progressively) on the brakes holding them at the point just before the wheel is about to lock theoretically gives the best retardation.

But Braking on it’s own doesn’t make you quick. Schumacher doesn’t brake particularly hard or late (Herbert was the latest and hardest braker in F1) but Schumi’s style is very effective and is what most F1 drivers do. That is brake less but carry the brakes to the apex letting them off as the tyre load goes from braking to cornering – The idea is to be using maximum tyre grip right up to the apex and not have the ‘down time’ between letting the brakes off and hitting maximum corner speed.

Herbert just jumped on the brakes in a straight line and then got off and hurled the car into the bend (and is why he could not drive a tail happy car) Herbert used that method thanks to smashing his legs up big time in a mammoth F3000 crash and losing feel.

So the latest braker in F1 wasn’t necessarily the best on the brakes!

[david_martin]

A classic example of different braking techniques between team mates cropped up in 1986 at Mclaren when Alain Prost and Keke Rosberg were paired. Rosberg was a classic hard braker and liked to fling the car into corners and take a very late apex. Prost, on the other hand, used a much more progressive braking style and liked to take an early apex. In the turbo era with "laggy" engines, and an ever increasing dependence on aerodynamic downforce, Prost generally left Rosberg for dead - except perhaps on street circuits where Rosberg's style seemed to work extremely well. In another era (say 1975 rather than 1985) things may have been very different.

[Jaxs]

Cadence braking is the human version of ABS, on off braking bring the wheel to lock and release, needs very cool nerves and a belief in what you are doing.Especially in the wet or snow.... Double declutching, clutch down, into neutral, clutch up, rev engine, clutch down and select gear..double the clutch action.. very old hat....with modern syncromesh , not necessary.... snatched gear changes are that much quicker and cleaner. The modern method of heel and toe works best in production vehicles, brake with the ball of the foot (toe) and use the heel to operate the throttle, whilst operating the clutch and gear change at the same time. If you get the sync right, double declutching is second nature.....with heel and toe.

[desmo]

An interesting aside relating to differences between team-mates and braking is the fact that Mika is so much "smoother" on braking that he can often use smaller cooling ducts for his brakes than David. This can give him a tangible aero edge as it frees up some air for downforce! It also suggests to me that Mika is likely easier on his tires than David.

[Amadeus]

Just one other small point - engine braking is fine in a road environment but on a race track with a highly stressed engine it can cause failures (it was one of the reasons why Buttons car quit more frequently than RS's at the start of the season - RS was smooth on the brakes JB used engine braking and the additional stress caused more terminal failures). It's also not great from a fuel effeciency point of view - drivers blip the throttle to match revs to roadspeed when downshifting, not to use engine internals to scrub off speed.

[Spot]

I can remember watching a race at Adelaide, when MS was at Benetton. He had an on-board camera. It sounded very much to me as if he was changing down into the gear required for the corner very early, e.g. 5th to 2nd, and then slipping the clutch as he brought it back in. This would have created engine braking without the need for constant gear changing as he approached the corner.

I may have this wrong, but certainly the engine seemed to be screaming at high revs from the beginning of the braking zone until he was pretty much into the corner.

[palmas]

Braking depends alot of what you need at the time:
if you need enter or exit a curve correctly, if you need to save the tires, if you need to... and obviously you should suit your driving stile. In hardbraking the engine is not used to brake some more, but to avoid traction weels to block (if you over do it, it will work the wrong way).

[ferrarifan2000]

Wasnt braking one of zanardi's troubles with driving an f1 car when he switched over to the series. I know that he complained with lack of feel, but i thought that a commentator stated that the f1 cars need to be thrown into a corner more than a champ car because its lighter. Where as the champ car with 300 or so more pounds and slick tires responds better to a smoother input. I thought if you threw an f1 car into a corner you would lose massive amounts of downforce and spin. But i read that Michael schumcher throws his car into corners like it's rag doll also. And now i read on this thread that hakkinen is a very smooth driver, yet is incredibly fast. I know that i have written some contradictory things, but that is the info i received from other sources. So what is it? Smooth and precise, or hard and late? Does anyone have any other examples of the different brakers in racing?

[tak]

Generally a driver only pitches a car if it is behaving poorly. Note that for drivers who brake in a straight line only tend to turn in with the car heavily weighted on the front end. Getting a car to turn in that way and NOT have excessive oversteer on throttle exiting the corner is VERY difficult.
Also, do not confuse bringing the rear out under trail braking and picking the car up on throttle as "tossing" the car--it requires very fine feel on the brakes and on the gas (traction control?!). It also works best with left foot braking--there is no 'dead' time moving the foot from brake to gas. The car does move around alot (and it's fun!...very easy to spin though).
Lastly, keep in mind that different types of corners require different lines, and different braking to make them work! A corner that leads onto a long straigt requires earlier and more braking so the driver can be back on the gas as early as possible to make the straight as long as possible. Similarly, if a corner is at the end of a straight, the driver should brake very late, and trail brake while turning in--again, maximizing the length of the straight. There is an excellent description of this in a "Driving in Competition" by Alan Johnson.

[FucF1]

OK Whats trail braking?

Interesting posts

[david_martin]

Keeping some brake pressure on while turning in to wash off the last bit of speed before the apex - helps keep the speed through the corner up.

[Amadeus]

I can remember watching a race at Adelaide, when MS was at Benetton. He had an on-board camera. It sounded very much to me as if he was changing down into the gear required for the corner very early, e.g. 5th to 2nd, and then slipping the clutch as he brought it back in. This would have created engine braking without the need for constant gear changing as he approached the corner.

I may have this wrong, but certainly the engine seemed to be screaming at high revs from the beginning of the braking zone until he was pretty much into the corner.

I hate to disagree (yeah, right!!!! ) but I would have thought that what you heard was just MS shifting down rather than activly slipping the clutch and engine braking, as you describe. Behaviour like that is impossible in a modern F1 car, and I believe in MS's Bennetton, because of semi-auto sequential shifts. It's simplest to think of the car as having 2 different ways of controlling the clutch - 1) Manually, by hand at the start to prevent wheelspin from a standing start or 2)Using the paddles to shift gear activates a computer controlled clutch to change gear.
In essesnce if the clutch is even part depressed you are wasting power and the reason F1 cars have computer opertated clutches is to spend as little time as possible slipping it.

The essence of engine braking is to reverse the direction of force. In normal use the engine, through the transmission, provides power to the back wheels to overcome friction and drive the car forward. In engine braking the power is sent back from the wheels, through the transmission where it increases the engine revs. It is the friction caused by this increase in revs that provides the resistance to the driven wheels, which slows the car.

The problem is, in a race engine where tolerances are fine the difference between engine breaking or not can be the difference between a failure or not. Simplisticaly if you are spending 10% of the lap time braking then you should have the power down for the other 90%, which means the engine is, in effect 'unloaded' (or at least running at less than max) for 10% of the circuit. You start engine braking and you have an engine at full stress maybe 95% of the time - the equivalent of adding 3.5 laps of wear over a 70 lap race. Think about the fine tolerances in an F1 car and you can see why this may be a problem. You also, of course add 5% more fuel consumption.

Neither of these problems are enough to stop a driver engine braking if that is there style, or as tak says, if a corner demands it - it's just that it's not the best way of using your resources - remember brakes to go slow, enginue to go fast!

[david_martin]

You are most probably right, but the original poster did not say which year he watched Schumacher in Adelaide. IIRC Benetton only introduced a semi-automatic gearbox on the B193B, which appeared at Donnington Park in 1993, so if it happened to be either the 1991 or 1992 Australian Grand Prix when the observations were made, he would have been shifting gears manually with a 3 pedal cockpit.

[confucius]

Originally posted by ferrarifan2000
Wasnt braking one of zanardi's troubles with driving an f1 car when he switched over to the series. I know that he complained with lack of feel, but i thought that a commentator stated that the f1 cars need to be thrown into a corner more than a champ car because its lighter.... i read that Michael schumcher throws his car into corners like it's rag doll also. And now i read on this thread that hakkinen is a very smooth driver, yet is incredibly fast. I know that i have written some contradictory things, but that is the info i received from other sources. So what is it? Smooth and precise, or hard and late? Does anyone have any other examples of the different brakers in racing?

Zanardi even tried steel brakes as per champcars because they give the driver a lot more "feel", but he still struggled. I think this shows his desparation to try whatever he could to find some pace. Yes Hakkinen is a very smooth driver if compared to say Villeneuve or even Schumacher. He is one of the latest brakers (maybe even the latest braker, along with Alesi) out of the current drivers. Remember their battle in France last year? As both Schumacher and Hakkinen have shown, you can be smooth and fast or more aggressive and also be fast. Hakkinen has been compared to Jackie Stewart in terms of his smoothness of driving style. He brakes very late and takes a later apex than Schuey and DC. Probably why he cannot stand the dreaded understeer. Jax is also another example of a driver who brakes very late.

In reference to cadence braking, Schuey is a good example of using this when he gets it wrong. In Japan 98 where he was pushing extremely hard to get back from last place, he locked up many times at the Triangle. Watch the tyre smoke and you see individual puffs of smoke as he brakes gets some grip, and brakes again, on-off, on-off. It worked most times but he still cut the chicane once i think.

[Jaxs]

The description of the individuals braking methods will also reflect how the front end is set up and corner weights, MS like a kart type drive, slightly twitchy but 'digs' in, indicative of both increased camber setting and tyre wear. MH prefers a more neutral setting, smoother into the corner and more controlled power out. The style or type of braking will reflect the suspension seting and the driver's own preferences.

[silver]

Niki Lauda once said that Hakkinen' s braking style differs from other drivers style a bit. When other drivers after starting braking gradually increase the pressure Mika slams the brakes all the way immediately.
This is why he is able to start braking so late even though he uses late-turn-in style.

This also one reason why MH is in trouble when the conditions are constantly changing. If it is constantly wet or constantly dry he is vey fast and extremely good under brakes but for example when it starts to rain and he is on slicks he is in trouble since he doesnt leave himself any room for error.
Classic example being this years Nurburgring GP. When it was dry Mika and Michael were on par..when it started raining Mika let Michael through.
And when it was raining cats and dogs they were on par again.

Mika is also said to be silky smooth driver but is only half of the truth.
He likes cars which turn-in rapibly and he doesnt mind oversteer. Since he has the fastest reactions and hands currently in F1 he makes it look so very smooth.

[Powersteer]

If you have lots of downforce, press very very hard and decrease as speed decreases to get full effect of downforce. Relate your braking with your steering, meaning as you turn the wheel, release the brake porpotionally. Hold the steering wheel harder than normal when doing it because the uneven surface of tyre contact patch with the road will disturb the steering.

[ferrarifan2000]

I remember Irvine saying that he tried driving more like schumacher and that some of it worked and some of it didn't. It just depended on who the driver was. I thought that that was interesting.

[Ross Stonefeld]

You almost never brake at the absolute maximum. If you were to brake as late as the car would allow, it would involve carrying the brakes well into the corner, slowing down all the way to and past the apex; screwing up the entire corner. It's not keen for a quick lap, but if you're in a braking duel it just might work