22 replies to this topic

[glorius&victorius]

question:
besides Kimi and Fernando, which other drivers have won on their Ferrari debut?

[Mansell's 'tash]

question:
besides Kimi and Fernando, which other drivers have won on their Ferrari debut?

Mansell. Not sure if he had number 5 that year.

[Rob]

Giancarlo Baghetti

[thiscocks]

Mario Andretti

[taran]

Mansell. Not sure if he had number 5 that year.

Mansell in 1989. He drove with #27 as he replaced Michele Alboreto. As it was Gilles' last number, it seemed fitting as Mansell had an equal driving style.

[buzatlas]

Fangio/Musso (same race/same car - Fangio won taking Musso's car) 1956
Baghetti 1961
Mario Andretti 1971
Nigel Mansell 1989
Kimi Raikkonen 2007
Alonso 2010

Edited by buzatlas, 24 March 2010 - 10:11.

[Tenmantaylor]

Good thread. So Alonso has matched Kimi so far. Will his career go the same way?

[Rob]

Actually, I have to retract my Baghetti suggestion. He drove a Ferrari, but it was a FISA entered Ferrari, not a works effort.

[TecnoRacing]

Baghetti 1961 (non championship race)

No need to qualify Baghetti's victory
He did also win in his championship round debut with Ferrari...

[RodrigoL]

Good thread. So Alonso has matched Kimi so far.

Not quite, KR got the hat trick in his first race (no pole for Alonso)..

Edited by RodrigoL, 23 March 2010 - 16:23.

[aditya-now]

No need to qualify Baghetti's victory
He did also win in his championship round debut with Ferrari...

In the famous sharknose Ferrari...

[Captain Tightpants]

Good thread. So Alonso has matched Kimi so far. Will his career go the same way?

What, win a championship, disappoint for a year and then accept a pay-out to leave the team?

[rko281]

What, win a championship, disappoint for a year and then accept a pay-out to leave the team?

since you brought this out.... I think the part with the pay-out he might also have it in common since when he left Mclaren after the first year, I'm sure he also had a pay-out to leave the team

[2ms]

What, win a championship, disappoint for a year and then accept a pay-out to leave the team?

Pole and win of first race + WDC +WCC all in his first year.
3rd in WDC second year + WCC
Most fastest laps every season except the one where Ferrari didn't even bother developing car it was so bad in first place that there was (according to them) no hope.
6th in WDC despite driving said abandoned car missing 5th by one point and 95% more points (ie just shy of twice as many) as Alonso

Alonso's certainly going to have to step way up from the 10th place etc he's been last few years basically since he had the Michelin + mass damper advantage (though he did get 3rd in 2007 to his credit). Looks like he's got Schumacher-era type superiority of equipment though so he's got better starting advantage than anyone in at least 6 years. Looks like Ferrari might be back as far as their cars are concerned. Alonso being as good as Kimi -- well you can't do better than Kimi in Kimi's first year but certainly it's possible he'll do better than 3rd in WDC next year.

Edited by 2ms, 24 March 2010 - 08:34.

[2ms]

since you brought this out.... I think the part with the pay-out he might also have it in common since when he left Mclaren after the first year, I'm sure he also had a pay-out to leave the team

Whether or not he get's to leave with full pay to go do something he's been wanting to do more for years anyway depends on two things:
(1)Whether or not Alonso has anything in his life that would prefer more than the F1 circus
(2)Will some company flush with gov't bailout money and dying to put driver of particular nationality into seat at Ferrari come in and offer to take entire burden of salary off of Ferrari's hands and replace with their pay driver. This one is very unlikely because Santander is giving Alonso to Ferrari for free, so unless they take him away it would take another free driver who is better than Alonso for them to switch -- not likely since Santander kind of wealth (not to mention nationality/race orientation with all the "Latin team" emphasis) quite anomalous these days

Edited by 2ms, 24 March 2010 - 08:36.

[bourbon]

What, win a championship, disappoint for a year and then accept a pay-out to leave the team?

That is an unfair assssment and you are missing a year. You write "winning a championship" as if it was like something one does on a whim. The truth was, it was one of the more difficult WDC battles. Early that year, the F2007 was giving Kimi problems as everyone in the business was pointing out (even making comparisons to his move to McLaren where similar reliability issues arose when he arrived as if he were a bad luck charm - and culminating in Kimi's line in my signature - that luck relative to reliability is nothing he can change). But Kimi remained very consistent himself that year, winning 6 GPs and otherwise making podiums. That year there were four burning hot contenders for the crown - and 2 of them (Alonso & Hamilton) were ahead of Kimi in points, although he was able to close the gap. Hamilton had a sweet year in terms of reliability and Alonso just behind him in that regard. Massa, like Kimi had it a bit worse in the end. Additionally, except for Spain and Finland, the world was excited about a driver making WDC in their rookie year and Hamilton was drawing in a lot of attention and publicity to F1 - with a shift in the whole circus atmosphere. The Alonso v. Hamilton battle would also affect the circus. So it was not a WDC for the taking, but a hard fought battle, where Kimi was never really given proper attention as a contender until about 15 minutes before becoming champion in Brazil - understandable as Hamilton was novel and absolutely brilliant that year and Alonso similarly brilliant - but most felt it would be 2003/2005 for Kimi all over again, and his probably ending up in 3rd place. Do you even remember all the things that had to happen for him to win in '07? He didn't just have to win Brazil, Alonso had to be 3rd, Hamilton had to be 5th, and in race, Rosberg's unreliable car had to be reliable and he and Kubica could not knock eachother out in their never ending battle during the race (and that nearly happened twice) - and Heidfeld had to remain ahead of Hamilton to make it definitive. Plus of course, the Ferraris had to hold position in front and Massa would have to restrain himself from challenging for the win in the last few laps - in his home town - where he was being cheered on like crazy. It was madness! The odds disfavored Raikkonen and to this day he has to thank the stars that Alonso wanted Hamilton to lose at all costs and took advantage of Massa and Raikkonen's strategic start and little go ahead 'gift'.

So it wasn't just pole/1st win and Championship (WDC/WCC) - it was actually a brilliant year all considered, but with the spotlight elsewhere for most of it. Note that Massa was also trying to win in 07 and nearly did it in 08 - would you characterize him as dissappointing for 2 years - or 2.5 until he was injured? I wouldn't. I wouldn't classify Kimi's 3rd in WDC and WCC with the team in '08 as disappointing either - any more than I would classify Alonso's 3rd in WDC in 2007 following his championship a 'disappointment'. Kimi would likely agree with you (he is firmly among the 2nd place = first loser group), but I think in terms of F1, it would be a complete mischaracterization.

2009 we had the F60 which both Massa and Raikkonen had problems with. Although they managed points and a podium early in the year (Massa more), neither was able to reach their performance of the previous year. Some in the media rather unfairly went after Raikkonen saying he was unmotivated, but after Massa's injury, he began coping better with the car, bringing in 5 podiums and a win - closing down some of the accusatory remarks. Massa returned to support his teammate, declaring that the F60 was very difficult to drive and Fisi confirmed this with his performance. In the backround, rumors about Alonso coming to Ferrari grew stronger, MS almost came back on board, RBR and Vettel were starting their roll, Jensen was wowing the crowds and both McLaren and Ferrari were suffering. 2008 was disastrous for Ferrari (according to their terms), but that is only because they have arrogantly formed a ridiculously absurd opinion of their value and worth based on their MS run - completely forgetting their less than stellar past. The year wasn't THAT bad - considering they had a crap car they stopped developing and left if up to the drivers and crew to make it through - and their driver was 6th in WDC.

We don't know the reason why Ferrari bought out Kimi's contract and replaced him with Fernando. There are many rumored reasons - some of them good - that have been proposed and hinted at. But Neither Raikkonen or anyone in the Ferrari organization empowered to speak for them has given a definitive reason. Although both Kimi and Ferrari have said it had nothing to do with his actual driving, Dom did say that he felt Alonso would be able to work with th crew in developing the car more effectively. We don't know why he thinks this is true - Alonso's "development work" didn't seem to help Renault during the last two years But in any case, both sides were happy enough to end the contract. Ferrari ended up with Alonso and Santander, and Kimi, after what appeared to be an obligatory contracting session with McLaren, instead accepted a fully sponsored and facilitated opportunity to participate in the world rally championship. Dressed in Red Bull Blue - Raikkonen looked more joyous than ever as he waved goodbye to F1 for at least a season - but that is understandable; how many drivers have their dream offered to them on a platter?



Unlike Raikkonen, Alonso is a double WDC coming into Ferrari. He is an excellent driver and a definite top contender for the WDC this year. But he really doesn't have anything to prove. Kimi had everything to prove - he was often noted as the fastest driver, and the unlucky 2nd, but he had no WDC and there were numerous drivers, young and old, ready to ensure he never got it. Unlike Raikkonen, Alonso didn't sit pole, but he did win his first GP with Ferrari. Perhaps Alonso's win was not as commanding because of Vettel's strong position before his problem arose - but it is a win. The unfortunate part is that he doesn't have to battle Raikkonen. That is the biggest pity on the year; Kimi is not among those Alonso must fight for the title, seated in a competitive car. Like it or not, that made the whole thing all the more exciting over the years. This thread names the maiden driver winners for Ferrari - but those wins are most sweet and meaningful when their famous contenders are on the tarmac in hot pursuit. Maybe next year...

Nonetheless, Alonso may have a good go in his maiden voyage - assuming everything works out with the new rules and what not. MS may come around, Vettel is certainly going to provide a hellish challenge and so will the McLaren kids if their development brings them into contention. Rosberg may surprise as well - and as always there is the "mystery of Massa". Plus there are other outside contenders as well. So we'll see - Kimi's participation would have made an Alonso-Ferarri WCD/WCC win a crowning event, but that is no longer possible. In any case, it is too soon to consider that - I'm still favoring Vettel.

In any case, I'll tell you this: if Alonso fails to win the WDC, it won't mean anything at all. Alonso is already a double WDC, he's already a great driver - and doing it in a Ferrari won't make him any better. I am not an Alonso fan at all - not anymore since I feel he participated in dishonest events in F1 - but that has nothing to do with recognition of him as a stellar driver that doesn't need the likes of Ferrari or any other company to prove it. It also won't mean anything for Ferrari either way. We already know they've managed to produce a better car, having worked on it for so long - so their job is pretty much done outside of development (and of course, that assumes they really did get it right - if not, Alonso might have to deal with some hardship as Raikkonen did his first year).

Edited by bourbon, 24 March 2010 - 10:49.

[buzatlas]

No need to qualify Baghetti's victory
He did also win in his championship round debut with Ferrari...

You are right! Thanks.

[Tenmantaylor]

What, win a championship, disappoint for a year and then accept a pay-out to leave the team?

My post made no judgement on either driver... sounds pretty awesome when you put it like that!

[rko281]

My post made no judgement on either driver... sounds pretty awesome when you put it like that!

don't worry, these kind of threads always end up like this....bashing and fighting over the same things over and over again

[buzatlas]

bourbon, some guys don't really race to prove anything they just like to win in a competitive field.

[bourbon]

I Agree buza - many race for the passion of racing...that is what I said in a long winded way, and with pictures too.

[buzatlas]

Hopefully both Alonso and Kimi will do well this year.

[rko281]

Hopefully both Alonso and Kimi will do well this year.

the funny thing is that they have the same car no ....8 (one in F1, the other in WRC)