9757 replies to this topic

[Disgrace]

You never know. Everyone, and especially McLaren were so nervous at cocking up they left their drivers out on inters. Honda changed to full wets and Rubens got a podium as a result. Who's to say Raikkonen, in contention for the win, wouldn't have gambled on the full wets when the heavens opened? Oh well, a debate for another day.

[MortenF1]

No-one would've I think (yes, I understand you're asking a leading question to Zava, Dunder ), and Hamilton both said, and showed to, that he even drove within his limits.

[LiJu914]

Honest question. Suppose Raikkonen did change to fresh intermediates at that first pitstop, do you believe he would have beaten Hamilton that day?

I doubt it. But i´m pretty sure he would have given Lewis a good run for his money instead of being lapped and finishing in 4th position...

Edited by LiJu914, 30 June 2011 - 19:26.

[Zava]

Honest question. Suppose Raikkonen did change to fresh intermediates at that first pitstop, do you believe he would have beaten Hamilton that day?

no, I don't think so. but would have finished <10 seconds down on him, not 1:45 down... or would have taken the gamble with the full wets as Disgrace said.

Edited by Zava, 30 June 2011 - 15:39.

[Tardis40]

The 07/08 Mclaren was exceptional in wet conditions. Far superior to any other car.

[DanardiF1]

The 07/08 Mclaren was exceptional in wet conditions. Far superior to any other car.

but Monza required many of the teams to change brake manufacturers and materials for heavy braking in wet conditions. Toro Rosso made the right choice. They also had a good Monza package that clearly gave them good scope for adding wing in wet conditions. Their Ferrari engine had enough poke, but also their chassis was more than good enough to run at the front in that package, as Webber showed by lining up 3rd...

Look this 'myth' that Vettel was far and above the class of the car that weekend is pish. He, and Bourdais, Webber and Coulthard, had a great car under them, with the Toro Rosso's making the better choice on brake materials and having the advantage of the Ferrari engine. Why did Vettel not show such form in wet conditions anywhere else? Because all the elements that make a win came together for him and the team at Monza.

Not flamebaiting by mentioning his name, but on race day had Hamilton been starting where Heikki was, we'd have seen a different winner..

[Bunchies]

I wonder how his finger got injured?

Celebration injury perhaps?

I refuse to believe that you've been around since 08 and don't know this

[Bunchies]

Bourdais' engine stalled on the warmup lap, so that 18th was not a true reflection of his pace ( Bourdais won a lot of CART titles by the way not a poor driver by any means.)

So of course, because his engine stalled and his car was actually capable of 2nd, he was second.

What the ****!?

[Zava]

but Monza required many of the teams to change brake manufacturers and materials for heavy braking in wet conditions. Toro Rosso made the right choice. They also had a good Monza package that clearly gave them good scope for adding wing in wet conditions. Their Ferrari engine had enough poke, but also their chassis was more than good enough to run at the front in that package, as Webber showed by lining up 3rd...

Look this 'myth' that Vettel was far and above the class of the car that weekend is pish. He, and Bourdais, Webber and Coulthard, had a great car under them, with the Toro Rosso's making the better choice on brake materials and having the advantage of the Ferrari engine. Why did Vettel not show such form in wet conditions anywhere else? Because all the elements that make a win came together for him and the team at Monza.

Not flamebaiting by mentioning his name, but on race day had Hamilton been starting where Heikki was, we'd have seen a different winner..

uhm... fuji 2007? shanghai 2007? monaco 2008? sao paulo 2008?

[Johnrambo]

Not even almost lapping the whole field and finishing 68 seconds in front of 2nd place and 82 seconds in front of third? The only guys he didn't lap were 2nd and third, remember that? In the wet?

McLaren was the WDC winning car in 2008. Not comparable to fricken Toro Rosso.

[LiJu914]

The 07/08 Mclaren was exceptional in wet conditions. Far superior to any other car.

That´s a little bit strong.
But it´s right that it was easier to heat up the tyres in a McL. So they had an advantage on intermediates, if the track was quite wet. However it was quite the opposite in damp/drying conditions.... The Ferrari was relatively kind to the tyres so they didn´t have much problems with overheating in these scenarios.

[DanardiF1]

uhm... fuji 2007? shanghai 2007? monaco 2008? sao paulo 2008?

Not race winning though was it....

That's my point. The Toro Rosso was a cracking car that year, in ALL conditions.

[DanardiF1]

McLaren was the WDC winning car in 2008. Not comparable to fricken Toro Rosso.

But comparable to a Monza-spec Toro Rosso....

[Unbiased]

This really has become the "bitter McLaren fans praising Hamilton" thread, hasn't it?

[DanardiF1]

This really has become the "bitter McLaren fans praising Hamilton" thread, hasn't it?

In a way it has, but Monza definitely is a win that is too lauded, without considering the specific circumstances. It's been (wrongly in my opinion) elevated from a good win in a car that on balance was probably the 2nd best that weekend, to a great one that was impossible but for Vettel.

[LiJu914]

That's my point. The Toro Rosso was a cracking car that year, in ALL conditions.

I´m curios. What do you define as a "cracking car"? Or in other words, which cars were better than the Toro Rosso THAT YEAR in your opinion?

Edited by LiJu914, 30 June 2011 - 20:12.

[Zava]

Not race winning though was it....

That's my point. The Toro Rosso was a cracking car that year, in ALL conditions.

who knows what could have happened. in fuji 2007, he was actually faster than Hamilton before the fatal safety car period.

[hammibal]

I take it this was a different Bourdais to the one who finished a lap down in 18th

You mean Bourdais who ultimately wasnt quite good enough for F1 but managed to qualify 4th in such a dog of a car?

[Group B]

You mean Bourdais who ultimately wasnt quite good enough for F1 but managed to qualify 4th in such a dog of a car?

I mean the Bourdais who fernandofan2001 claimed finished second in a race where he actually finished 18th. How good he was or wasn't is beside the point.

[Zava]

You mean Bourdais who ultimately wasnt quite good enough for F1 but managed to qualify 4th in such a dog of a car?

you mean Bourdais who qualified 1 second off the pace of Vettel when it mattered, but the standard was put so high he still got the 4th place?

[DILLIGAF]

I doubt that Vettel really cares that Di Resta beat him in a junior formula 5 years ago. Formula 1 is a completely different beast so performance at a lower level is only a guide to how good a guy is, some flourish at the top, other's don't. Time will tell for Di Resta if he gets his hands on a better car, until then any comparisons with Vettel don't hold much weight reallly.

Seb has developed & matured a hell of a lot just in the last 12 months. Trying to downplay Seb's ability by comparing him to Di Resta in a lower series 5 frickin years ago is just ridiculous imo.

[bourbon]

In a way it has, but Monza definitely is a win that is too lauded, without considering the specific circumstances. It's been (wrongly in my opinion) elevated from a good win in a car that on balance was probably the 2nd best that weekend, to a great one that was impossible but for Vettel.

Once the specific circumstances are considered - all of them - it is one of the 'great' wins in F1 history. Vettel was a part of it - as was his (increasingly better performing during the season) STRF. But that was just the tip of the iceberg. There are so many firsts associated with that drive/driver/car/team, and so many props going out to the many connected to the drive - and so many in F1 lauding it all before, during and after, it is rather disingenious of you to discount it as 'just another good win' among the many in F1. But perhaps you are serious, and everyone is truly welcome to their Honest opinion. I would have to disagree with you though, and I believe 99.9% of the world of F1 would too (if they were being honest). That would be like calling Suzuka 2005, 'just another race'... lol

Edited by bourbon, 30 June 2011 - 20:43.

[DanardiF1]

I´m curios. What do you define as a "cracking car"? Or in other words, which cars were better than the Toro Rosso THAT YEAR in your opinion?

Ferrari
McLaren
BMW Sauber
Renault

If Toro Rosso had better reliability, and didn't have to start the year with the inferior 2007 model (a car that Vettel didn't look too great in in early 2008...), they'd have cleared Toyota's points easily.

[LiJu914]

Ferrari
McLaren
BMW Sauber
Renault

If Toro Rosso had better reliability, and didn't have to start the year with the inferior 2007 model (a car that Vettel didn't look too great in in early 2008...), they'd have cleared Toyota's points easily.

So the 5th best car out of 11.

I would call that rather a midfield-car than a "cracking car".....

[DanardiF1]

Once the specific circumstances are considered - all of them - it is one of the 'great' wins in F1 history. Vettel was a part of it - as was his (increasingly better performing during the season) STRF. But that was just the tip of the iceberg. There are so many firsts associated with that drive/driver/car/team, and so many props going out to the many connected to the drive - and so many in F1 lauding it all before, during and after, it is rather ingenious of you to discount it as 'just another good win' among the many in F1. But perhaps you are serious, and everyone is truly welcome to their Honest opinion. I would have to disagree with you though, and I believe 99.9% of the world of F1 would too (if they were honest).

You misunderstand me. I'm not doubting it was a fantastic win, but many people are of the opinion (like you say everyone is entitled to it) that there was no way the Toro Rosso could've won a race, but for Vettel. My point is that at Monza, it definitely was either the best or 2nd best car on the grid.

Of course Vettel was a part of it, but it was only 'against the odds' because of the team's history, not because of it's present (2008 of course) form. This wasn't a win in a Minardi, this was a win in an Adrian Newey-designed, Ferrari-powered full 'works' (in that it had the same developments as up at RBR) car that was run by old Minardi guys, a team who always ran their cars, however good they were, impeccably. The historical image of the team was no more, yet that is what makes up the bulk of the 'myth'... 'Vettel wins in Minardi' etc etc etc.

[DanardiF1]

So the 5th best car out of 11.

I would call that rather a midfield-car than a "cracking car".....

In normal circumstances, yes, but in Monza-spec it was much much better.

[Afterburner]

Seb has developed & matured a hell of a lot just in the last 12 months. Trying to downplay Seb's ability by comparing him to Di Resta in a lower series 5 frickin years ago is just ridiculous imo.

Arguing with haters is like arguing with computers--they're programmed to give you the same response until you input a suggestion they want to hear. Best to just let it go, in my opinion--the people who don't know how to have a rational argument are easy to spot if you know what to look for.

Once the specific circumstances are considered - all of them - it is one of the 'great' wins in F1 history. Vettel was a part of it - as was his (increasingly better performing during the season) STRF. But that was just the tip of the iceberg. There are so many firsts associated with that drive/driver/car/team, and so many props going out to the many connected to the drive - and so many in F1 lauding it all before, during and after, it is rather disingenious of you to discount it as 'just another good win' among the many in F1. But perhaps you are serious, and everyone is truly welcome to their Honest opinion. I would have to disagree with you though, and I believe 99.9% of the world of F1 would too (if they were being honest). That would be like calling Suzuka 2005, 'just another race'... lol

I will never, ever forget that race. It was that moment that I felt Vettel was destined to achieve big things in the future. For all intents and purposes, Vettel essentially scored a win for Minardi that day. Circumstances or not, I think a win in a car that was perceived to be that far down the grid would be regarded as something special. I don't think the STR was that slow--it obviously had potential in the wet if it put both drivers in the top five in quali. But at the same token, the race isn't won only on Sunday, as Raikkonen and Hamilton demonstrated that weekend--Vettel had the better all-around race that weekend, and that's why he won.

Ferrari
McLaren
BMW Sauber
Renault

If Toro Rosso had better reliability, and didn't have to start the year with the inferior 2007 model (a car that Vettel didn't look too great in in early 2008...), they'd have cleared Toyota's points easily.

I might add Toyota to that list as well. The STR was a lower-midfield car for most of 2008, in my opinion. Vettel usually helped it to places it shouldn't have been whenever it rained, though, and that's what made his talent obvious--much like Schumacher was able to do with the Mercedes in Canada this year.

[LiJu914]

In normal circumstances, yes, but in Monza-spec it was much much better.

I didn´t underline the part, where you wrote "that year" for nothing...

But anyway i would basically agree that it was round about the 5th best car in 2008 (Fer, McL-Top 2 / BMW-best of the rest/ Renault-"upper midfield" / STR,RB,Toy,Williams-Midfield / Hon, FI, Super Aguri- backmarkers)

Edited by LiJu914, 30 June 2011 - 21:06.

[Wi000]

I will never, ever forget that race. It was that moment that I felt Vettel was destined to achieve big things in the future.

Same here I was so impressed when he pulled that off and seeing him progress after that made me realise the successor to Schumi would come from Germany again.

I think it's like Bernie said; the Vettel era is imminent

[DarthWillie]

In normal circumstances, yes, but in Monza-spec it was much much better.

Sure it was a good car in Monza, but in my humble opinion, the great drivers only need that little bit extra to take the win. Just like Schumacher in Spain 96 or Alonso in Singapore and Japan 2008 (YES even Singapore, he still had to bring it home) In a bad car no driver wins, it's just the way they grab the smallest opportunity that makes the difference.

[DanardiF1]

Sure it was a good car in Monza, but in my humble opinion, the great drivers only need that little bit extra to take the win. Just like Schumacher in Spain 96 or Alonso in Singapore and Japan 2008 (YES even Singapore, he still had to bring it home) In a bad car no driver wins, it's just the way they grab the smallest opportunity that makes the difference.

And he showed us what he could do in a good car. But it wasn't a win in a Minardi, like many people try and twist it into.

[DarthWillie]

And he showed us what he could do in a good car. But it wasn't a win in a Minardi, like many people try and twist it into.

Neither was it the most superior car, nobody wins in a Minardi, great driver made it the best that day.

[joshb]

To be fair, it was the one chance he had had that year to win (someone will argue he was in with a shout at Fuji 07 so i won't say it was his one chance ever) and he took it, like alonso in singapore (albeit with a lot of help), kubica in montreal and later on in 09 with Hamilton in hungary.
Such drivers can grasp these opportunites as soon as they arise, even when they're not in the best car. thats impressive.

[DanardiF1]

Neither was it the most superior car, nobody wins in a Minardi, great driver made it the best that day.

Yes, Vettel made that car a winner. But the Monza-spec was good enough for it, it just needed a winner to drive it.

[Alarcon]

Toro Rosso finished 6th on the WC... with 39 points, 35 achieved by Seb.

Obviously it wasn´t a win in a Minardi, but was one of the best wins on history. Brundle said something like "one of the most amazing things I´ve ever seen in my life"...

I´m also agree with Bernie, who also said to Vettel: "...don´t worry Hamilton joins RBR, because you´re a the best"...;)

[Zava]

you mean this?

"and you know what Martin, there are some moments that come along, that just completeli rejuvenate your love and passion for F1. and I'm feeling it right here. this has been one of the most impressive things I've ever seen in almost 20 years in F1. a toro rosso with minardi DNA forcing (?) through its veins, driven by a 21 year old hotshoot, with a great sense of humor who just makes you love formula one all over again, is about to take his first GP victory, and become the youngest winner ever"
-James Allen

[joshb]

you mean this?

"and you know what Martin, there are some moments that come along, that just completeli rejuvenate your love and passion for F1. and I'm feeling it right here. this has been one of the most impressive things I've ever seen in almost 20 years in F1. a toro rosso with minardi DNA forcing (?) through its veins, driven by a 21 year old hotshoot, with a great sense of humor who just makes you love formula one all over again, is about to take his first GP victory, and become the youngest winner ever"
-James Allen

i was cricketing that day so i taped the race. Still got it, don't get bored of watching it, no-one is recording anything over that! (not that you would now with Sky+ around)

"I tell you what the kids gotta change his attitude with the media; he's happy, he's friendly, he answers your questions, shakes hands with the soundman, and the cameraman, and thanks you for the interview- he'll give grand prix drivers a bad name!"
One of my faves by Brundle

[Alarcon]

Yes, just that Zava !

Thank you ;)

[HAM]

You say that, but its a shame the toro rosso was magic in the wet. Otherwise, bourdais wouldnt have been second...

The STR3 was one of the best cars during the second part of 2008, believe it was the 3rd fastest car in the 2nd part of the season: from then faster than Sauber BMW and STR was mighty fast in the rain. Still a wonderful race by Sebi.

Edited by HAM, 30 June 2011 - 23:13.

[HP]

I will never, ever forget that race. It was that moment that I felt Vettel was destined to achieve big things in the future.

To me that race was just a confiirmation what I had seen so far. OK. Vettel until this season made some silly mistakes, but he has ironed them out it seems. It was evident to me in Suzuka 2007 that he will get far. One of his strongest points is that he has a positive attitude, even when things don't go his way. That's a strength that sets him apart and serves him well.

[halbvoll]

This really has become the "bitter McLaren fans praising Hamilton" thread, hasn't it?

Let the poor Brits have their moment of joy.

[BennyJohnson]

Yes, Vettel made that car a winner. But the Monza-spec was good enough for it, it just needed a winner to drive it.

I don't think anyone is doubting that the car was 'capable of winning'.

But he didn't have the strongest car that day, and he was able to win. It's a great victory, it was his first victory and it came in circumstances that not many people expected. Honestly, I can't think of any Hamilton win that has impressed me as much as that win. It's one of the best win's I've seen in my years, and that's about the size of it. Why try to take anything away from an all around good victory by saying that people think it was 'all Vettel'. Who gives a crap.

Further more, This stuff about him being beaten by Di Resta is a complete load. If you want to argue about his Junior Formula performances, did all of you magically forget this is the same kid that took 18 out of 20 victories in Formula BMW?

So he goes into a new team, performs well by everyones standards, even though beaten by Di Resta and get's rookie of the year... Right, terrible form from Vettel. May as well write off his F1 Career now...

[bourbon]

You misunderstand me. I'm not doubting it was a fantastic win, but many people are of the opinion (like you say everyone is entitled to it) that there was no way the Toro Rosso could've won a race, but for Vettel. My point is that at Monza, it definitely was either the best or 2nd best car on the grid.

Well they may be saying the STRF couldn't have won but for Vettel, but you are saying that Vettel couldn't have won but for the STRF. What's the difference? To me, both arguments are disingenious.

It was clearly the combination of Vettel and the STRF that got the job done that day. But you can't discount the artistry and aptitude of either.

Of course Vettel was a part of it, but it was only 'against the odds' because of the team's history, not because of it's present (2008 of course) form. This wasn't a win in a Minardi, this was a win in an Adrian Newey-designed, Ferrari-powered full 'works' (in that it had the same developments as up at RBR) car that was run by old Minardi guys, a team who always ran their cars, however good they were, impeccably. The historical image of the team was no more, yet that is what makes up the bulk of the 'myth'... 'Vettel wins in Minardi' etc etc etc.

Well I see what you are saying - and looking at it from that perspective, you likely expected Vettel to pole and win - thus there was no excitement for you except that you ended up being right.

But most people were not as perceptive as you and were shocked at the pole. And even after the pole, they felt that the STRF wouldn't be first to the checkered flag. "A podium would be fantastic" claimed the BBC commentator, and as a fan of Vettel, I agreed and hoped he'd do it. However, I fully expected some of the better running cars to take and keep the lead during the race. As the race progressed, that didn't happen, and it was with growing excitement that everyone started to realize that he might not only get a podium, but if he kept it up, 1st. That was what was against the odds. Not the ability of the car which was clearly running fantastic on the day - but Vettel's performance as a rookie (he was still in his 1st full season behind the wheel), and the continued performance of the car (it was running well, but it was - alas - a midgridder, which means that everything could go completely wrong at any moment. If you need proof of that, check out what happened to his teammate in that STRF running great on the day.)

To add to the excitement and against all odds ideology:

-It was raining and drivers were having problems - good drivers. Vettel drove well, but his car had a few excursions during the race as well, yet he managed to keep it on track in first.

-It was the very first win for any of the Red Bull backed teams - building on the Minardi sure, but that is the whole point - they had to build on it and they did it. It was a great win for RBR and Minardi lovers could also celebrate from a historical standpoint. More importantly, the whole team and crew could celebrate as well - it was a stellar accomplishment in every aspect that went into race day from crew, to team, to company to driver, etc.

-It was Vettel's first win and pole and he happened to be the youngest ever driver doing so - in a mid grid car that was having the day of its life right along with him.

-It was Ferrari powered - and it was Monza - the crowd was insane. The car with italian roots; the italian engine; the italian anthem being played (in error, lol) - it was fantastic.

So that is a small snapshot of why it was a fantastic F1 moment to many (there are other reasons of course). Seb's onboard lap following the race evidences what most on the grid thought about it too. You should check it out if Youtube still has a copy.

Edited by bourbon, 01 July 2011 - 03:25.

[Afterburner]

Well they may be saying the STRF couldn't have won but for Vettel, but you are saying that Vettel couldn't have won but for the STRF. What's the difference? To me, both arguments are disingenious.

It was clearly the combination of Vettel and the STRF that got the job done that day. But you can't discount the artistry and aptitude of either.

Why more people can't understand this is beyond me. It's never "all the team" or "all the driver" or even "a little of both, but some more than the other"--it's a combination, and because every combination of driver/team is different right down to an immeasurable and unfathomable level, there's no realistic point in trying to discern how much one helps the other.

Excellent summary of Monza '08, by the way, too. It brought back all the memories I had of watching the race that day--and it also reminded me that I don't have a recorded copy of that race anywhere to watch again, unfortunately. It'll be a long time until we see a win like that again--we may see more spectacularly-driven races from top-level drivers, but the sheer feeling of miracle that came from little STR and rookie Vettel flat-out earning a race win is what made that weekend (and I hesitate to use a word like this lightly) magical.

[klyster]

Let the poor Brits have their moment of joy.

Hey, I'm not British, and I'm not too biased (for a Ham fan), but this is a thread to discuss, not just praise, Sebastian Vettel.

Just like the other driver threads on this board, dealing with criticism is part of life, and you can choose to ignore

If people take every criticism of their favourite driver as a personal stab, then it's their problem really, as long as they are not trolling or abusing people, anything goes really.

Just look at the Hamilton/Alonso thread/s ;)

My post was aimed at John Rambo, who said:

Vettel winning Monza 2008 in that POS Toro Rosso is better than anything Hamilton has ever achieved behind the steering wheel.

I countered what he said (I know probably won't change his opinion, and I don't want to really), but he singled out Lewis and claimed the Toro Rosso was a piece of shite, so I offered a drive from Lewis that would be hard to call anything but an amazing achievement (Nothing similar since 1995), and I didn't even bother harking back to the era where he was wiping the floor of older , more experienced kart drivers, in the rain, GP2 etc...

These examples probably exist for Seb too, I just haven't seen them, but to discount all Hamilton has achieved by one drive by Seb, is something I thought was worth commenting about.

You may argue that the Monza specced Toro Rosso was a POS, like John Rambo did, but most know that wasn't the case. Also, the McLaren might have won the WDC by a hair that year, but at that point in time, neither cars were WDC winners.

Not to take away at all from the brilliant results Sebastian achieved that day, and has been doing since, but hey, that's the beauty of this forum, it's not a Sebastian love in, just the same as any other drivers thread isn't immune from other peoples opinions.

They are only opinions and no-one has to agree with them, but insults and snarky remarks don't make anyone any more correct.

Edited by klyster, 01 July 2011 - 06:35.

[Alarcon]

Otherwise what Seb achieved by the moment with 23 years (soon 24) on all categories you can describe with only one word: RECORD.

-Formula BMW: Record of victories and poles ever.
-F1 (the most important): youngest WC ever, youngest pole ever, youngest podium ever, youngest fined ever, first victory TR, first pole TR, first victory RBR, first pole RBR, record of points achieved for Toro Rosso in history (even including last year with changement of points), youngest driver to set fastest time at a GP, youngest driver to score a "double", youngest driver to score a "triple", youngest driver score points of F1... and continue!

Also by the moment he achieved 1 more pole position than Senna with the same numbers of races (70), then we are witnesses of an historical talent on F1. Sure one day will arrive another driver, younger and destroying again records... but the moment is now.

Edited by Alarcon, 01 July 2011 - 08:35.

[BennyJohnson]

Hey, I'm not British, and I'm not too biased (for a Ham fan), but this is a thread to discuss, not just praise, Sebastian Vettel.
Just like the other driver threads on this board, dealing with criticism is part of life, and you can choose to ignore
If people take every criticism of their favourite driver as a personal stab, then it's their problem really, as long as they are not trolling or abusing people, anything goes really.
Just look at the Hamilton/Alonso thread/s ;)
My post was aimed at John Rambo, who said:
I countered what he said (I know probably won't change his opinion, and I don't want to really), but he singled out Lewis and claimed the Toro Rosso was a piece of shite, so I offered a drive from Lewis that would be hard to call anything but an amazing achievement (Nothing similar since 1995), and I didn't even bother harking back to the era where he was wiping the floor of older , more experienced kart drivers, in the rain, GP2 etc...
These examples probably exist for Seb too, I just haven't seen them, but to discount all Hamilton has achieved by one drive by Seb, is something I thought was worth commenting about.
You may argue that the Monza specced Toro Rosso was a POS, like John Rambo did, but most know that wasn't the case. Also, the McLaren might have won the WDC by a hair that year, but at that point in time, neither cars were WDC winners.
Not to take away at all from the brilliant results Sebastian achieved that day, and has been doing since, but hey, that's the beauty of this forum, it's not a Sebastian love in, just the same as any other drivers thread isn't immune from other peoples opinions.
They are only opinions and no-one has to agree with them, but insults and snarky remarks don't make anyone any more correct.

I agree, some of things people say in the heat of the argument make me cringe. Logically, the STR was a decent car, it had to be to take the win. You can't just apply magic and drive a car that's crap to victory. Physics, unfortunately, doesn't have rules you can bend, but the fact is that Monza in the wet would be difficult enough, and he wasn't in a flattering car like he is now, so to lead every lap of the race was just impressive.

I don't think it's as impressive as Hamilton winning his first title at the last corner. That was unbelievable, and I don't think many Vettel fans will say that his one win is better than everything Hamilton has done, but I can't remember a specific win that impressed me as much as Vettel's 08 Monza victory. It was an unexpected and totally deserved victory, and the commentary backs that up. James Allen said it all when he was calling that race. a 21 year old hot shoot with a great sense of humour driving a car with Minardi DNA to his first victory. It was just a great, emotional scene.

You're totally correct, this isn't a Sebastian Love in, nor should it be, I just dislike how it always comes down to the fact that he's driving a good car and that's why he's winning. That annoys me more than anything. Sure, it's true, he's winning mostly because of his car, but to say that anyone of the drivers could do what he's doing now is hardly a legitimate reason to say he's not one of, if not, the best in Formula 1 right now.

[BRK]

A good question to ask at this stage of his career would be whether fans of rival teams would want him to drive for their team, putting aside their biases. Suppose he was on the market and your favourite team had a free seat, would you want him on your side of the fence?;)

[Concorde]

Otherwise what Seb achieved by the moment with 23 years (soon 24) on all categories you can describe with only one word: RECORD.

-Formula BMW: Record of victories and poles ever.
-F1 (the most important): youngest WC ever, youngest pole ever, youngest podium ever, youngest fined ever, first victory TR, first pole TR, first victory RBR, first pole RBR, record of points achieved for Toro Rosso in history (even including last year with changement of points), youngest driver to set fastest time at a GP, youngest driver to score a "double", youngest driver to score a "triple", youngest driver score points of F1... and continue!

Also by the moment he achieved 1 more pole position than Senna with the same numbers of races (70), then we are witnesses of an historical talent on F1. Sure one day will arrive another driver, younger and destroying again records... but the moment is now.

Yes unbelievable isn't it

I wouldn't be surprised if he's the one who will take some of Michael's amazing records.
F1 history in the making.

[Zava]

Hey, I'm not British, and I'm not too biased (for a Ham fan), but this is a thread to discuss, not just praise, Sebastian Vettel.

but nowadays what can you do? only praise (or hate), because he's giving us stellar performances