9757 replies to this topic

[Alarcon]

You don't get it.

All that became because I said that the fastest laps are not the absolutely truth. And like I proved, I´m right.

Vettel was on the front and didn´t risked pushing, because he didn´t need. It´s logical and not too difficult to understand, a sign of maturity of the WC that became some years after Monza.

Vettel achieved the récord of points in Toro Rosso by so far. He did on 2008. Just 39 points, he achieved 35 for the team.

When he left TR the team achieved 8 points. And even with the new change of points in 2010... he still keeps the record.
(It´s normal Giorgio compared him with Senna not only qualyfing)

But we all know that Toro Rosso in 2008 was the fastest car and he needs a Newey car...

Very easy

Edited by Alarcon, 27 July 2011 - 08:30.

[Alarcon]

His overtaking is questionable. Vettel has done much better this year in that department, but the fact is, he sat behind Massa for 40 laps and couldn't get past. He made mistakes in Germany that LH and FA wouldn't make. Everytime we were onboard with him, he locked his breaks. That's not the Vettel I've seen this year.

Almost 100% agree with you, but Alonso made a mistake on Germany, as Vettel did, the difference was the "lucky". Alonso go out I think was on third turn (not sure) but didn´t spin and Vettel did fast and spin. Vettel lost about 7 seconds on second sector but that mistake didn´t cost him podium but the setup of the car (and the management of the tyres).

Vettel not use to locke his brakes (I think never on race) but on qualyfing laps at Monaco or Australia (only this year) he did and got amazing times. When he do that it´s because he´s driving on the limit.

[Higli]

Because as soon as Vettel is stuck behind other fast cars he looks average. Hence the last two races. His overtaking skills are lacklustre at best.

Oh dear, everyone can see that the Red Bull lacks top speed and is impeded heavily when driving in dirty air behind another car. So overtaking cars of the same speed potentional is only possible with a fresh tire advantage. Same for Webber and Vettel and has nothing to do with their overtaking skills.

[DarthWillie]

I'm failing to see why people are trying so hard to argue with Fieraku. He seems like one of the few people who have come to this thread and expressed an honest feeling without being obtuse about it.

They are the type of discussions I want to have on this forum, I don't know about you guys.

It is the use of double standards I don't like. What bothers me is argument like he isn't as good as hamilton if not in front. This is utter nonsens. This is the same Hamilton I saw go off track 3 times in Silverstone. The same Hamilton who has hit Massa/Maldonado/Webber/Button/Massa in the last couple of races and could not overtake Vettel in Barcelona.

I won't argue Vettel had a poor race in Germany, because he had. I will argue if the judgement is different.

Seb best be praying every night that Newey continues to give him a huge performance advantage. Because as soon as Vettel is stuck behind other fast cars he looks average. Hence the last two races. His overtaking skills are lacklustre at best.

I send him a link of hamilton overtaking Webber and Button in Montreal and Maldonado in Monaco. He should now understand how it should be done.

[gillesthegenius]

Oh dear, everyone can see that the Red Bull lacks top speed and is impeded heavily when driving in dirty air behind another car. So overtaking cars of the same speed potentional is only possible with a fresh tire advantage. Same for Webber and Vettel and has nothing to do with their overtaking skills.

[SK99]

Oh dear, everyone can see that the Red Bull lacks top speed and is impeded heavily when driving in dirty air behind another car. So overtaking cars of the same speed potentional is only possible with a fresh tire advantage. Same for Webber and Vettel and has nothing to do with their overtaking skills.

That's not very accurate at all.

More often than not MW gets past when he is given the task with a decent chance, whilst SV more often than not with a decent chance cannot get it done.

The case that sums up the difference in quality perfectly IMO is Monza last year.

SV from the start was stuck behind Hulkenberg, I recall watching him now being as he usually is - erratic in his driving and not pressurising adequately - not getting good corner exits and entries consistently - losing more and more raw tyre performance in the dirty air - etc.

MW was textbook, he would more consistently get good exits to minimize the straight line speed disadvantage yet not taking too much out of his tyres, and he got past Schumacher, Kubica - and Hulkenberg, who in the end had to resort to cheating to stay ahead until he was still beaten.

There was no significant difference in wing, no significant difference in set-up, just a significant difference in brain power.

To add to that to further my point, I cannot recall a single instance whilst SV has been in a Red Bull or a Toro Rosso of him after being close behind a driver for more than a lap or two finding his way past with a clean move (he did it v Sutil at Silvo '10 but it was a barge), nor can I recall an instance where in that situation he has worked a chance bar Silvo this year v Hamilton.

MW on the other hand has done that too, on more than the one occasion v Hulkenberg.

Edited by SK99, 27 July 2011 - 10:34.

[f1fastestlap]

The man knows how to win races

Only from the front row it seems...

[f1fastestlap]

I send him a link of hamilton overtaking Webber and Button in Montreal and Maldonado in Monaco. He should now understand how it should be done.

While you're at it, send him also a link of hamilton overtaking alonso and webber from the last GP... Maybe it would teach him how he could do it to massa next time...

[Sakae]

Only from the front row it seems...

The very best way, IMHO, because the race starts with Quali on Saturday. If you think it doesn't, than why bother, and we could have a beer in nearest pub instead.

[Alarcon]

Last year (and on 2008) the man knew how to win races... now he knows how to win WC´s.


A clue... not doing bad overtakes like Hamilton did on Monaco or Canadá

Edited by Alarcon, 27 July 2011 - 10:46.

[Group B]

While you're at it, send him also a link of hamilton overtaking alonso and webber from the last GP... Maybe it would teach him how he could do it to massa next time...

Lets hope he gets the right link, given how several of Hamilton's recent manoeuvres have ended up

[Group B]

Oh dear, everyone can see that the Red Bull lacks top speed and is impeded heavily when driving in dirty air behind another car. So overtaking cars of the same speed potentional is only possible with a fresh tire advantage. Same for Webber and Vettel and has nothing to do with their overtaking skills.

Not everyone, actually, some people don't want to see it, just as they don't want to consider the bigger picture of Vettel's apparent 'failure' to overtake Massa.

[gillesthegenius]

Only from the front row it seems...

Senna won 19 of his first 20 from the front row (and 31 of his first 33 from the front row).
Now Seb has won 15 out of his 16 from the front row.
Not bad company to be in.

PS: now dont these facts put Ascanelli's Vettel- Senna comparisons in perspective?

Edited by gillesthegenius, 27 July 2011 - 11:19.

[ForzaGTR]

I send him a link of hamilton overtaking Webber and Button in Montreal and Maldonado in Monaco. He should now understand how it should be done.

Why not send him a link of Hamilton in Germany and China 2011?

Webber seems to manage overtaking in the RB6 & RB7 just fine, he overtakes Ferrari's and Mclarens. But it would seem Vettel struggles to do the same. Being stuck behind a much slower Mclaren in Silverstone was very telling!

Hamilton proved his overtaking skills after just 1 race in his F1 career. We are what 5-6 years into Seb's F1 career and the question is being asked even by people in the paddock. No smoke with out fire

[flyer121]

That's not very accurate at all.

More often than not MW gets past when he is given the task with a decent chance, whilst SV more often than not with a decent chance cannot get it done.

The case that sums up the difference in quality perfectly IMO is Monza last year.

SV from the start was stuck behind Hulkenberg, I recall watching him now being as he usually is - erratic in his driving and not pressurising adequately - not getting good corner exits and entries consistently - losing more and more raw tyre performance in the dirty air - etc.

MW was textbook, he would more consistently get good exits to minimize the straight line speed disadvantage yet not taking too much out of his tyres, and he got past Schumacher, Kubica - and Hulkenberg, who in the end had to resort to cheating to stay ahead until he was still beaten.

There was no significant difference in wing, no significant difference in set-up, just a significant difference in brain power.

To add to that to further my point, I cannot recall a single instance whilst SV has been in a Red Bull or a Toro Rosso of him after being close behind a driver for more than a lap or two finding his way past with a clean move (he did it v Sutil at Silvo '10 but it was a barge), nor can I recall an instance where in that situation he has worked a chance bar Silvo this year v Hamilton.

MW on the other hand has done that too, on more than the one occasion v Hulkenberg.

Generally I agree that Webber is better at wheel to wheel combat due to his experience and driving (fighting) mediocre cars..
Although if you take last race - Webber was only able to get past Hamilton due to a mistake and was prompty overtaken back..

This simply shows that RB7 is at a considerable disadvantage when it comes to Wheel to Wheel racing , plus the car wasnt fast enough to maintain a position even if you go banzai and overtake !
Now given Webber's better pace , he probably would have taken Massa and even maintained his position - but a Vettel struggling to match pace - dont think so.

[ForzaGTR]

Last year (and on 2008) the man knew how to win races... now he knows how to win WC´s.


A clue... not doing bad overtakes like Hamilton did on Monaco or Canadá

Vettel's attempted overtake of Button in Spa 2010 is 10x worse than any failed LH overtake.

[MrFondue]

Vettel's attempted overtake of Button in Spa 2010 is 10x worse than any failed LH overtake.

Yeah, too bad Lewis has failed overtakes every two races. He could have easily won last years WDC, but no, crashing into Massa at Monza is much more fun.

Edited by MrFondue, 27 July 2011 - 12:24.

[flyer121]

Vettel's attempted overtake of Button in Spa 2010 is 10x worse than any failed LH overtake.

That I agree with !! Still LOL thinking about it and JB's comment afterwards - "How can you T-Bone someone when you are going in the same direction ?"

But this incident was epic - isnt it? Every driver should have some of those ...... In time both Turkey 2010 and Spa 2010 will go down as legendary incidents !

[Kvothe]

Yeah, too bad Lewis has failed overtakes every two races. He could have easily won last years WDC, but no, crashing into Massa at Monza is much more fun.

Well when you don't have the luxuary of the fastest car or even the second fastest car you have to take risks.
Funnily enough had his wheel rim not gone in Barcelona 2010 he would have been WDC.

[FTATRWeSaluteYou]

Well when you don't have the luxuary of the fastest car or even the second fastest car you have to take risks.
Funnily enough had his wheel rim not gone in Barcelona 2010 he would have been WDC.

And had Vettel not had all those failures while leading races he still would have been WDC.

The notion that some "evil" wheel rim prevented him from the WDC is absurd.

If anyone had a claim to feel hard done by because of Reliability it was Vettel. By far.

[Crossmax]

Vettel's attempted overtake of Button in Spa 2010 is 10x worse than any failed LH overtake.

Why? He lost it under braking, which is hardly as bad as diving for a gap that doesn't exist. In fact, it's not even comparable.

[SCUDmissile]

Vettel's attempted overtake of Button in Spa 2010 is 10x worse than any failed LH overtake.

but then Lewis has Canada 2008. as a general fail, that is up there, im sorry to say.

[Kvothe]

It is the use of double standards I don't like. What bothers me is argument like he isn't as good as hamilton if not in front. This is utter nonsens. This is the same Hamilton I saw go off track 3 times in Silverstone. The same Hamilton who has hit Massa/Maldonado/Webber/Button/Massa in the last couple of races and could not overtake Vettel in Barcelona.

I won't argue Vettel had a poor race in Germany, because he had. I will argue if the judgement is different.



ilton overtaking Webber and Button in Montreal and Maldonado in Monaco. He should now understand how it should be done.

Lewis went off 3 times? He went off twice, attempting to overtake Massa by outbreaking him into Brooks. The fact that he only did it there and that he knew there was a tarmac run off area which meant little risk if he got it wrong, seems to have escaped some people.

Vettel twice has got too wide and ended up spinning off, and not because he was trying to overtake.

Massa and Maldonalo were at a track where overtaking is nigh on impossible without the compliance of the defender. yes both moves were optomistic, but video and photographic evidence shows that both Massa and Maldonaldo turned in earlier, with Sam Michaels stating the latter was a racing incident. The Massa one was merely a rubbing of sidepods and a bit of damage to Lewis' front wing, not as bad as Vettel and Liuzzi in Spa which gave Vettel a puncture.

Webber, was Lewis' fault however he understeered in the wet on a kerb, and I think most drivers can be forgiven for overestimating grip in wet conditions.

Button, Lewis had the run, did the same move which he pulled on Webber in Germany, the only difference being Jenson did not look in his mirrors, hard to see how it was Lewis' fault.

Massa/Silverstone: Massa tried to outbrake on the outside and was always risking contact, last corner of the last lap, so minor damage and contactdidn't matter.

Vettel, two overtakes on a straight in the dry on tracks which you can overtake on. Two collisions.


Edit: I though we had already discussed Barcelona......

Edited by Kvothe, 27 July 2011 - 12:58.

[SK99]

Generally I agree that Webber is better at wheel to wheel combat due to his experience and driving (fighting) mediocre cars..

I don't think that has much to do with it, but saying that SV showed a fair bit more savviness in junior formulae so its in there somewhere, I think the biggest problem is like Sir Stirling Moss said a while ago in that he gets frustrated and loses focus instead of knuckling down and concentrating on the task at hand.

Although if you take last race - Webber was only able to get past Hamilton due to a mistake and was prompty overtaken back..

That's why I said a decent chance, occasions like that where the guy in-front is arguable at a slightly stronger pace, at least not very much slower at all, and occasions like SV behind Massa in Catalunya '09 and v Alonso last year at Hungary are more understandable IMO - but there have been a fair few occasions where overtaking has been possible for SV and he hasn't done it.

This simply shows that RB7 is at a considerable disadvantage when it comes to Wheel to Wheel racing , plus the car wasnt fast enough to maintain a position even if you go banzai and overtake !
Now given Webber's better pace , he probably would have taken Massa and even maintained his position - but a Vettel struggling to match pace - dont think so.

SV IMO was not at that stage really struggling - as Horner says he had got back into some sort of rhythm, and prior to the stop was closing on Massa rapidly - though I agree that he wasn't at his absolute best, but there was still enough in the raw pace to get past with a bit more savviness IMO, and I think had MW been in that situation of having struggled through the weekend yet capable of going quicker than the guy in-front he would have had the savviness to get past - as I have seen it in the past, like at Monaco for example where he wasn't his usual self this year in terms of raw pace, but he still pulled off a great move on Kobayashi - just that raw battling quality is there.

[Kvothe]

but then Lewis has Canada 2008. as a general fail, that is up there, im sorry to say.

Only if you forget that four drivers in previous years have also missed the red lights (due to their positioning) or conveniently forget that Rosberg was guilty of the same thing implying that it was a simple mistake as opposed to Driver error.

[RoutariEnjinu]

Every ****ing thread, Hamilton.

[Kvothe]

And had Vettel not had all those failures while leading races he still would have been WDC.

The notion that some "evil" wheel rim prevented him from the WDC is absurd.

If anyone had a claim to feel hard done by because of Reliability it was Vettel. By far.

Yes but one could argue that is a weakness of having the most dominant car which only missed out on pole position four times. It is often a trademark of Newey that while his cars are fast they are also unreliable, with 2005 being a good example.
The fact that despite all those racing incidents and mechanical failures, Seb was still able to win, shows not only how good of a driver he was (in comparison to Webber) but also how fast the Red Bull car is. No other car could have recovered from that many incidents to still win.

the wheel rim failure was because of the badly fitted rim in a pit stop and so was independant of the design of the car, and so is a valid point.

[Zava]

the wheel rim failure was because of the badly fitted rim in a pit stop and so was independant of the design of the car, and so is a valid point.

the same applies to Vettel@australia.

[goldenboy]

Wow! How in the hell did he even get into F1 if he can't overtake! Is it like male models not being able to turn left or something!?

He can overtake, just not as good as hamilton or alonso and probs webber who's had some crackers the last 2 years, but it's been blown WAY out of proportion. He's also had less opportunities, and if you take the last race as an example, you know for a fact he had points on his mind more than taking that place - the team told him on the radio, which was broadcast.

[GerhardBerger]

Generally I agree that Webber is better at wheel to wheel combat due to his experience and driving (fighting) mediocre cars..
Although if you take last race - Webber was only able to get past Hamilton due to a mistake and was prompty overtaken back..

This simply shows that RB7 is at a considerable disadvantage when it comes to Wheel to Wheel racing , plus the car wasnt fast enough to maintain a position even if you go banzai and overtake !
Now given Webber's better pace , he probably would have taken Massa and even maintained his position - but a Vettel struggling to match pace - dont think so.

In Germany they were at a disadvantage when it came to overtaking, they were severely lacking in top speed compared to the Mclarens. However, this was due to setup rather than the actual design of the RB7. They were fine when it came to straight line speed in Silverstone and Montreal.

[GerhardBerger]

And had Vettel not had all those failures while leading races he still would have been WDC.

The notion that some "evil" wheel rim prevented him from the WDC is absurd.

If anyone had a claim to feel hard done by because of Reliability it was Vettel. By far.

Always found it strange how Vettel had so many failures whilst Webber had barely any...

[Kvothe]

the same applies to Vettel@australia.

I can't remember Australia as much so correct me if I'm wrong, but did'nt Vettel have a problem with is brakes.

Regardless my point was that you can't solely point to his racing incidents and say they cost him the championship.

A lot of it was luck, for example with the two collisions in Monza and Singapore, both were incidents that would not normally be race ending (Webber front, against the stronger Hamilton rear)

[Zava]

I can't remember Australia as much so correct me if I'm wrong, but did'nt Vettel have a problem with is brakes.

Regardless my point was that you can't solely point to his racing incidents and say they cost him the championship.

A lot of it was luck, for example with the two collisions in Monza and Singapore, both were incidents that would not normally be race ending (Webber front, against the stronger Hamilton rear)

no, it was a wheelnut failure.

[Kvothe]

no, it was a wheelnut failure.

ah ok fair enough.

[flyer121]

Only if you forget that four drivers in previous years have also missed the red lights (due to their positioning) or conveniently forget that Rosberg was guilty of the same thing implying that it was a simple mistake as opposed to Driver error.

No but Canada 08 was totally on another level !
Other drivers may have missed a red light but no one ran into the back of a standing car , including Rosberg who was following Lewis and not looking at Raikkonen.

This is also a LOL worthy incident and almost looked liek Lewis was confused if he is allowed to use the brakes in the pitlane ! If I was not so pissed off with him ruining Kimi's race and as it turned out his career, I would LOL at this video too.
Maybe in the coming years, we all will look at these videos and have a laugh !

[Kvothe]

No but Canada 08 was totally on another level !
Other drivers may have missed a red light but no one ran into the back of a standing car , including Rosberg who was following Lewis and not looking at Raikkonen.

This is also a LOL worthy incident and almost looked liek Lewis was confused if he is allowed to use the brakes in the pitlane ! If I was not so pissed off with him ruining Kimi's race and as it turned out his career, I would LOL at this video too.
Maybe in the coming years, we all will look at these videos and have a laugh !

I don't think so thats because for all the others that had missed the red light there had been no standing cars.
Rosberg hit into the back of Lewis, and got the same grid Penalty that Lewis received.

I get you're overall point however which is that these moments are just outliers in their overall careers.
The thing is until enough time has passed they will be used as evidence (right or wrong) of a drivers weakness:

Lewis: poor judgement, red mist.
Vettel: inability to overtake

Lets hope both have enough fantastic races to make these incidents truly laughable

[flyer121]

Lewis: poor judgement, red mist.
Vettel: inability to overtake

Lets hope both have enough fantastic races to make these incidents truly laughable

Dont quite agree with this bit but yes I m sure both will put together some stunning drives to make these incidents trivial !

[Kvothe]

Dont quite agree with this bit but yes I m sure both will put together some stunning drives to make these incidents trivial !

Read the proceeding line:

The thing is until enough time has passed they will be used as evidence (right or wrong) of a drivers weakness.

Lets hope both have enough fantastic races to make these incidents truly laughable

By that I mean to suit the agendas of others.

[Afterburner]

Dont quite agree with this bit but yes I m sure both will put together some stunning drives to make these incidents trivial !

I think Kvothe means Vettel's inability to overtake relative to other top drivers. I think Vettel is better at overtaking than most of the field, to be honest, but perhaps not yet on the level of, say, Hamilton when he's rocking the track and not making mistakes--see his overtake on Alonso just this last race for an example. I would add Schumacher, Alonso, and Kobayashi to the list of good overtakers, as well--I don't think he's entirely near the top of that club yet despite some good moves, but I'd certainly put him above the rest of the field.

EDIT: Well, now I know what Kvothe means, so never mind.

Edited by Afterburner, 27 July 2011 - 13:47.

[Kvothe]

I think Kvothe means Vettel's inability to overtake relative to other top drivers. I think Vettel is better at overtaking than most of the field, to be honest, but perhaps not yet on the level of, say, Hamilton when he's rocking the track and not making mistakes--see his overtake on Alonso just this last race for an example. I would add Schumacher, Alonso, and Kobayashi to the list of good overtakers, as well--I don't think he's entirely near the top of that club yet despite some good moves, but I'd certainly put him above the rest of the field.

EDIT: Well, now I know what Kvothe means, so never mind.

TBH in regards to Vettels overtaking ability, I think the perceived weakness is more to do with the car, and a lack of confidence resulting from that and the fallout from some of the mentioned incidents.
What Vettel needs is a red mist charge, from a seemingly hopeless position to snap him out of it, but with the inevitability of him going into championship mode for the rest of the season, we'll probably have to wait until next year.

Edited by Kvothe, 27 July 2011 - 13:55.

[joshb]

TBH in regards to Vettels overtaking ability, I think the perceived weakness is more to do with the car, and a lack of confidence resulting from that and the fallout from some of the mentioned incidents.
What Vettel needs is a red mist charge, from a seemingly hopeless position to snap him out of it, but with the inevitability of him going into championship mode for the rest of the season, we'll probably have to wait until next year.

or if he manages to get it done early, to end up low down (on the grid or early on in the race) at say brazil, Abu dhabi with pressure off and just enjoy trying to get through the pack without thinking about the percentage game.

[flyer121]

or if he manages to get it done early, to end up low down (on the grid or early on in the race) at say brazil, Abu dhabi with pressure off and just enjoy trying to get through the pack without thinking about the percentage game.

Yes - if the title is sewn up already with 2 -3 races to go.
He should skip Q2 & Q3 altogether - save some tires & try kamikaze moves ..

[gillesthegenius]

TBH in regards to Vettels overtaking ability, I think the perceived weakness is more to do with the car, and a lack of confidence resulting from that and the fallout from some of the mentioned incidents.
What Vettel needs is a red mist charge, from a seemingly hopeless position to snap him out of it, but with the inevitability of him going into championship mode for the rest of the season, we'll probably have to wait until next year.

I admire how balanced your posts are mate.

[Wi000]

Yes - if the title is sewn up already with 2 -3 races to go.
He should skip Q2 & Q3 altogether - save some tires & try kamikaze moves ..

If it's sewn up he then better sit out those races and give Ricciardo a taste of the car.
Won't happen but it would be the ultimate FU to the opposition to not take part and let the rest fight for 2nd place.

[Kvothe]

I admire how balanced your posts are mate.

Thanks mate, but I'm sure some of the Jenson fans would line up to disagree with you.
I am biased, we all are, but I try to not let it blind me to the obvious.

Edited by Kvothe, 27 July 2011 - 14:32.

[Alarcon]

Ok, now a question: what´s the problem about Seb´s overtaking? He´s not as perfect in the middle as on the front. Ok. Dou you know JIM CLARK ? For me the best and fastest ever driver (everyone has his drivers), who Stirling Moss compared with Sebastian...

And like him, he usually got problems "in the middle of the group" (i don´t know how to say exactly in english). Then, if he´s not Mansell or Gilles overtaking, doesn´t matter, he can become the greatest with the time. At least for people like me

Also we must say something about him, when he broke one break at Barcelona last year... with only 3 brakes he was the fastest on 2nd sector and then team say to him to leave or to slow... he was driving absolutely stunning using the motor brake. Genius and not only fast lapper.

Edited by Alarcon, 27 July 2011 - 15:19.

[EdwardCullen]

Ok, now a question: what´s the problem about Seb´s overtaking? He´s not as perfect in the middle as on the front. Ok. Dou you know JIM CLARK ? For me the best and fastest ever driver (everyone has his drivers), who Stirling Moss compared with Sebastian...

And like him, he usually got problems "in the middle of the group" (i don´t know how to say exactly in english). Then, if he´s not Mansell or Gilles overtaking, doesn´t matter, he can become the greatest with the time. At least for people like me

Also we must say something about him, when he broke one break at Barcelona last year... with only 3 brakes he was the fastest on 2nd sector and then team say to him to leave or to slow... he was driving absolutely stunning using the motor brake. Genius and not only fast lapper.

its not him its the car, same case with Weber
The RBR loses tons of downforce when following soneone

[Group B]

TBH in regards to Vettels overtaking ability, I think the perceived weakness is more to do with the car, and a lack of confidence resulting from that and the fallout from some of the mentioned incidents.
What Vettel needs is a red mist charge, from a seemingly hopeless position to snap him out of it, but with the inevitability of him going into championship mode for the rest of the season, we'll probably have to wait until next year.

As I've said before Vettel may or may not be a poor overtaker, but while he has much more to lose than gain by trying it's impossible to objectively judge.

[fed up]

its not him its the car, same case with Weber
The RBR loses tons of downforce when following soneone

It seems the downforce is equalised (when following) compared to the rest, but is significantly higher than the rest when travelling in clear air. It is therefore difficult to quantify performance attributed to the car vs performance attributed to the driver.

Vettel wins most of his races from pole, so it is fair to assume that the car is the star.

[Alarcon]

It seems the downforce is equalised (when following) compared to the rest, but is significantly higher than the rest when travelling in clear air. It is therefore difficult to quantify performance attributed to the car vs performance attributed to the driver.

Vettel wins most of his races from pole, so it is fair to assume that the car is the star.

How many races won the other RB, Mark Webber?

It´s always a question of car and driver. Not just a car, not just a driver. And like Lotus + Clark, the combination it´s just amazing.