9757 replies to this topic

[KavB]

some funny statistic, between 1999 and 2010 NO Newey car delivered a championship. Drivers in those cars: Mika Hakkinen, David Coulthard, Kimi Raikkonen, Juan Pablo Montoya, Pedro de La Rosa, Mark Webber, Christijan Klien.
Another funny statistic: Between 9/10/2005 (Raikkonen Japan) and 14/9/2008 (Vettel Monza) no Newey car won a single race (although to be honest he didn't design a car in 2006. But fielded 4 in 2008)

one could conclude that even a Newey designed car is no guarantee for succes. (I will admit the RB7 is a great car, but it is no way near as good as the championship standings suggest.)

Some people assume a Newey car guarantees success.

[gillesthegenius]

If it would be so easy - just a better car than rest of them - then AN could sit in, drive it, and win as well. There would not need for Sebastian. Horner would be sitting in the second one. A lot of money would be saved that way.

One of the best posts Ive read in this forum.

[gillesthegenius]

some funny statistic, between 1999 and 2010 NO Newey car delivered a championship. Drivers in those cars: Mika Hakkinen, David Coulthard, Kimi Raikkonen, Juan Pablo Montoya, Pedro de La Rosa, Mark Webber, Christijan Klien.
Another funny statistic: Between 9/10/2005 (Raikkonen Japan) and 14/9/2008 (Vettel Monza) no Newey car won a single race (although to be honest he didn't design a car in 2006. But fielded 4 in 2008)

one could conclude that even a Newey designed car is no guarantee for succes. (I will admit the RB7 is a great car, but it is no way near as good as the championship standings suggest.)

[joshb]

Five races left. Will Vettel/RBR take every pole this season?

Vettel said in the press conference he is keen to beat Mansells pole record. It would be nice enough if he got the 13 Senna got in 88 and 89 (seing as he's the qualifying benchmark)
I think there will be a rain interrupted qualy at some point (possibly Brazil or Japan) but he'll never get a better chance to do it.
and if Webber can maintain a good run like he did at Singapore (2nd attempt) he'll be there or thereabouts if Seb doesn't make it.

btw has Seb actually driven in anything other than a Newey car (apart from Indy 07 in the BMW)??? So how can he prove he can win in other cars. Its as silly as saying Schumacher won everything (or almost everything) in a Brawn/Byrne car

[WhiteBlue]

Five races left. Will Vettel/RBR take every pole this season?

They will definitely go for it and for as many race wins as possible as well. I think they have the capability to make it a clean swipe if you remember Vettel's record of those five races last year. He dominated them all and the qualifying in Brazil only went way because it was a lottery. Luck may interfere this year again, but from the pure capability point I would not bet any money against Vettel/Red Bull.

[Unbiased]

You should win awards for always writing complete nonsense. I guess we should not expect better from someone who thinks Kobayashi is one of the best drivers of the grid, and highest rated in the paddock.

And who are you?

Oh right, the guy who trolls every day for hours in the thread of a driver he dislikes, using irrational arguments while drunk on sour grapes

See, I can do that too, not respond to the content but take silly shots at the poster. Cool, huh? Grow up

[Alarcon]

some funny statistic, between 1999 and 2010 NO Newey car delivered a championship. Drivers in those cars: Mika Hakkinen, David Coulthard, Kimi Raikkonen, Juan Pablo Montoya, Pedro de La Rosa, Mark Webber, Christijan Klien.
Another funny statistic: Between 9/10/2005 (Raikkonen Japan) and 14/9/2008 (Vettel Monza) no Newey car won a single race (although to be honest he didn't design a car in 2006. But fielded 4 in 2008)

one could conclude that even a Newey designed car is no guarantee for succes. (I will admit the RB7 is a great car, but it is no way near as good as the championship standings suggest.)

The RBR on Webber hand´s is a similar car as McLaren this year. On Vettel hands... it´s one of the best cars. Easy. Even Jenson Button recognized.

Edited by Alarcon, 27 September 2011 - 20:18.

[Alarcon]

Vettel said in the press conference he is keen to beat Mansells pole record. It would be nice enough if he got the 13 Senna got in 88 and 89 (seing as he's the qualifying benchmark)
I think there will be a rain interrupted qualy at some point (possibly Brazil or Japan) but he'll never get a better chance to do it.
and if Webber can maintain a good run like he did at Singapore (2nd attempt) he'll be there or thereabouts if Seb doesn't make it.

He did a pole with rain driving a crab car... I´m not worried about

Edited by Alarcon, 27 September 2011 - 20:25.

[puxanando]

This thread is so "boring"....sorry I will go out for a while!!

[Racer3]

This thread is so "boring"....sorry I will go out for a while!!

Adiós, pupsernando, and don't let the door hit you on the way out

[Tifosi4ever]

He did a pole with rain driving a crab car... I´m not worried about

Would that be a car that goes sideways?

[Concorde]

This thread is so "boring"....

Ahh that's so sad, you know what we'll have a bit of a laugh.
The other day while looking for something I found this gem of a post from 1 year ago about Seb:

I think quite a few important people must be disappointed with Vettel's low popularity. Dietrich for one. Bernie for another, hoping for another great F1 rivalry but not really getting it.

LOL what a difference a year makes doesn't it.

Bernie has gone on record that he would like Sebastian as his son-in-law, Mateschitz is gift-wrapping a 2nd WDC winning car to present to him and every publication is full of perfect Sebi ready to wrap-up his second WDC 4 races before the end of the season.

Yes bitterly disappointing.......... for non Seb vettel fans that is.

[gillesthegenius]

Ahh that's so sad, you know what we'll have a bit of a laugh.
The other day while looking for something I found this gem of a post from 1 year ago about Seb:


LOL what a difference a year makes doesn't it.

Bernie has gone on record that he would like Sebastian as his son-in-law, Mateschitz is gift-wrapping a 2nd WDC winning car to present to him and every publication is full of perfect Sebi ready to wrap-up his second WDC 4 races before the end of the season.

Yes bitterly disappointing.......... for non Seb vettel fans that is.

[joshb]

LOL what a difference a year makes doesn't it.

Its interesting and quite amusing to go back and see what people wrote this time in 2010/2009/2008.

[Alarcon]

Would that be a car that goes sideways?

I want to be "polite" but you understood and that´s the important thing, isn´it?

[Alarcon]

Just as info.

Pedro de la Rosa said Mark Webber recog. that Vettel is much faster than him on the slow corners and looking his driving style Pedro was amazed the way Seb slides the rear, he said Seb is the driver who slides the rear the most, but he did in a way that allows him to conserve as much the tyres. That style talks about an amazing control of the car, sliding the just to arrive straight on the apex and accelerate very eary. (Ascari this year was a clear example or the pole position on Australia 2010)

http://www.theracedr...es-him-so-fast/

Casually it seem similar to what Windsor said.

Edited by Alarcon, 28 September 2011 - 10:32.

[iotar]

Just as info.

http://www.theracedr...es-him-so-fast/

Casually it seem similar to what Windsor said.

Oh dear, usual babbling and purple prose from Windsor. Does anyone take him seriously? I mean: "I was stunned by the suppleness of his car control over a couple of milliseconds of rapid correction at Degner"; "Vettel is a superbly-equipped, reactive driver". Romance novels language and similar level of expertise. I understand he's praising your favourite driver but let's be real it's a complete nonsense (leaving Vettel aside).

Could you provide links/quotes for De la Rosa's claims? I understand this style "advantage" suddenly appeared this season or was it also present in 2008, 2009 and 2010? Numbers disagree but who knows.

[Alarcon]

Oh dear, usual babbling and purple prose from Windsor. Does anyone take him seriously? I mean: "I was stunned by the suppleness of his car control over a couple of milliseconds of rapid correction at Degner"; "Vettel is a superbly-equipped, reactive driver". Romance novels language and similar level of expertise. I understand he's praising your favourite driver but let's be real it's a complete nonsense (leaving Vettel aside).

Could you provide links/quotes for De la Rosa's claims? I understand this style "advantage" suddenly appeared this season or was it also present in 2008, 2009 and 2010? Numbers disagree but who knows.

Was during last time on Singapore GP. Let me some minutes I´ll check it.

Maybe you know more about F1 drivers-style than Windsor. If you have something better I´ll be glad to read it. If not Windsor words and theory will stay much better than all you can say.

[Alarcon]

Oh dear, usual babbling and purple prose from Windsor. Does anyone take him seriously? I mean: "I was stunned by the suppleness of his car control over a couple of milliseconds of rapid correction at Degner"; "Vettel is a superbly-equipped, reactive driver". Romance novels language and similar level of expertise. I understand he's praising your favourite driver but let's be real it's a complete nonsense (leaving Vettel aside).

Could you provide links/quotes for De la Rosa's claims? I understand this style "advantage" suddenly appeared this season or was it also present in 2008, 2009 and 2010? Numbers disagree but who knows.

http://www.lasexta.c...singapur/487913

Check the final part over 1:58:30(podium) and... and enjoy Pedro la Rosa words... or maybe De la Rosa uses also romance novel language too???

Edited by Alarcon, 28 September 2011 - 11:55.

[BenettonB192]

Oh dear, usual babbling and purple prose from Windsor. Does anyone take him seriously? I mean: "I was stunned by the suppleness of his car control over a couple of milliseconds of rapid correction at Degner"; "Vettel is a superbly-equipped, reactive driver". Romance novels language and similar level of expertise. I understand he's praising your favourite driver but let's be real it's a complete nonsense (leaving Vettel aside).

Could you provide links/quotes for De la Rosa's claims? I understand this style "advantage" suddenly appeared this season or was it also present in 2008, 2009 and 2010? Numbers disagree but who knows.

What is wrong with the highlighted? It's a driving style very obvious when looking at his onboards. Compare Vettels 2011 Monaco pole with Webbers 2010 Monaco pole. Very different driving styles. This is also the same thing people noticed about Schumis and Sennas driving. So it's not wrong to assume this is where at least a part of his speed comes from.

[TheBunk]

He has a point about Windsor. Its a bit over the top. Having said that I think Vettel is a driving God too ;)

Moss was quoted saying how impressed he was with how precise Vettel is. Inch perfect corrections.

[Crossmax]

Does anyone know if Vettel has been running the same chassis since Melbourne?

[gillesthegenius]

Does anyone know if Vettel has been running the same chassis since Melbourne?

As far as I know, its been kinky kylie (chassis #03) all the way.

Edited by gillesthegenius, 28 September 2011 - 20:08.

[gillesthegenius]

Just as info.

Pedro de la Rosa said Mark Webber recog. that Vettel is much faster than him on the slow corners and looking his driving style Pedro was amazed the way Seb slides the rear, he said Seb is the driver who slides the rear the most, but he did in a way that allows him to conserve as much the tyres. That style talks about an amazing control of the car, sliding the just to arrive straight on the apex and accelerate very eary. (Ascari this year was a clear example or the pole position on Australia 2010)

http://www.theracedr...es-him-so-fast/

Casually it seem similar to what Windsor said.

Even Martin Brundell mentioned about Seb having a special driving style that reduced the lateral load on the tyres.

Would be very intersting if he indeed does acheive that by letting the rear slide, because I, with my limited knowledge, have always thought that such an oversteery driving style would only harm one's tyres faster.

Could anyone with in depth knowledge of how it works care to explain?

[mrmusicman]

Lets see how this 'special' driving style works in a non newey car that is super glued to the track. He was slower than bourdais until torro rosso got the updated newey chassis.

[Zava]

Lets see how this 'special' driving style works in a non newey car that is super glued to the track. He was slower than bourdais until torro rosso got the updated newey chassis.

and how did you get to that conclusion?
I remember he was punted off in like every single first corner in the first 4 races, not really a good chance to show his superior racecraft...

[gillesthegenius]

Lets see how this 'special' driving style works in a non newey car that is super glued to the track. He was slower than bourdais until torro rosso got the updated newey chassis.

Yea, yea... We shall wait... and wait... and wait... and see how he answers all the questions that you ask...

But wait a minute... Didnt he come into f1 with the aspiration of winning races and championships???

and boy is he doing that in style!!!

Who bothers about the questions that armchair experts like you put forward.

Edited by gillesthegenius, 29 September 2011 - 08:07.

[gillesthegenius]

and how did you get to that conclusion?
I remember he was punted off in like every single first corner in the first 4 races, not really a good chance to show his superior racecraft...

Maybe the same way one can come to a conclusion that Alonso was slower than Marquez.;)

[Dusty]

Vettel said in the press conference he is keen to beat Mansells pole record.

That's the problem with Vettel, his mind is on records. Fair play and he's doing the job with the car but it's nothing for the fans to get excited about. I'd like to see Vettel having to duke it out with the other top drivers before I appreciate him as a driver.

At the minute it seems more like the other drivers are trying to catch Vettel in a Concorde while they're flying 747's.

[FlashMaster]

That's the problem with Vettel, his mind is on records. Fair play and he's doing the job with the car but it's nothing for the fans to get excited about. I'd like to see Vettel having to duke it out with the other top drivers before I appreciate him as a driver.

At the minute it seems more like the other drivers are trying to catch Vettel in a Concorde while they're flying 747's.

[DarthWillie]

Lets see how this 'special' driving style works in a non newey car that is super glued to the track. He was slower than bourdais until torro rosso got the updated newey chassis.

some funny statistic, between 1999 and 2010 NO Newey car delivered a championship. Drivers in those cars: Mika Hakkinen, David Coulthard, Kimi Raikkonen, Juan Pablo Montoya, Pedro de La Rosa, Mark Webber, Christijan Klien.
Another funny statistic: Between 9/10/2005 (Raikkonen Japan) and 14/9/2008 (Vettel Monza) no Newey car won a single race (although to be honest he didn't design a car in 2006. But fielded 4 in 2008)

one could conclude that even a Newey designed car is no guarantee for succes. (I will admit the RB7 is a great car, but it is no way near as good as the championship standings suggest.)

His special driving style would probably work just as well in any other car. It's about understanding the tyres. I dare to say he would not have te problems Alonso has at the moments. I don't doubt Vettel would get the harder tyres working on the Ferrari. He would probably score more points in the Ferrari than it has now.

[gillesthegenius]

That's the problem with Vettel, his mind is on records. Fair play and he's doing the job with the car but it's nothing for the fans to get excited about. I'd like to see Vettel having to duke it out with the other top drivers before I appreciate him as a driver.

At the minute it seems more like the other drivers are trying to catch Vettel in a Concorde while they're flying 747's.

You sure you really watched Barcelona, Monaco, Spa and Monza???

[One]

I like Bernie, but his comments published on this autosport.com site somehow send me to the wrong direction.

[F.M.]

I like Bernie, but his comments published on this autosport.com site somehow send me to the wrong direction.

Ecclestone on whether Vettel should join Ferrari: "Well, seeing the situation as it is now it would be an appropriate means to slow him down..."

[gillesthegenius]

here an excerpt from an interview with di Grassi [current Pirelli tester]
the "advantage" Vettel seems to have at the moment, is due to an specific characteristic of the tyres.
it seems, according to di Grassi, that the tyres don´t cope well with combined conditions. (braking while turning, accelerating while still turning)
they seem to be good at providing either lateral or longitunal grip, but not both at the same time (e.g. trailbraking), and most of all they seem to be
very sensitive against overheating/ loadings for extented periods of time.
So a style, which can a.) live with some rear instability and b.) cut short the duration of loading the tyres seems to be an advantage.
If Vettel can use the instability to turn the car (yaw) around quicker at the appex, he has the car pointing straight out of the corner, so can use all the available
grip for accelerating, while others may still have sideload (lateral load) on the tyre. This additional lateral load, will put more "stress" on the tyre, and make the tyre
heat up more, which in turn will mean the tyre degrades more (quickly).
I think the key is, to just have the correct amount of rotation, as to much will mean, that you need to correct (the OS), which means again additional load for longer
on the tyres, especially the front tyres.



hope it helps to may clear this up a bit.
someone else used the expession "tron like" driving (as in the movie), basicly describing a style, which cuts short the transition phase between braking -> cornering -> accelerating.
keep in mind, that if we talk about heating up of the tyres, we talk about energy, so the time component is important, as longer a load (lateral &/or longitudinal) as more energy goes into the tyre

Hmmm... Makes a lot of sense.
Thanks alot.

Explains the troubles that Schumi and Hamilton have had with these tyres too.

Seb does seem to have a very unique style that combines smoothness with aggression. Explains why he can look like he is on the edge and still be easy on his tyres.

Besides, the amazing reflexes that Peter Windsor claims to see in Seb might be what helps him to cut short that transition between braking, cornering and accelerating. Looking at Jim Clark's onboards makes me wonder whether he also had a similar driving style. But my untrained eye cannot say for sure.

[gillesthegenius]

Ecclestone on whether Vettel should join Ferrari: "Well, seeing the situation as it is now it would be an appropriate means to slow him down..."

No offence, but the look on Luca's face when he hears that would be priceless!!!

[joshb]

Not sure about non-Vettel supporters but for me if he wraps the title up early, him going for some of these records adds a bit of excitement/something to look forwards to for the rest of the season

[sosidge]

Not sure about non-Vettel supporters but for me if he wraps the title up early, him going for some of these records adds a bit of excitement/something to look forwards to for the rest of the season

I think records are a distraction. The ultimate prize in an F1 season is the drivers championship, and a driver should focus all his efforts on acheiving that. It doesn't really matter how many races previous WDCs won - all that matters is outscoring the rest in 2011.

Last season Vettel wasted energy on trying to set fastest laps at the end of a Grand Prix - that's where mistakes start to creep in. This year he has been a much more complete racing driver, and I have a lot more respect for him because of it. He has maximised his results this season and it shows in the points table.

[Sakae]

Ecclestone on whether Vettel should join Ferrari: "Well, seeing the situation as it is now it would be an appropriate means to slow him down..."

Nevermind LDM, but BE's words might be hard to swallow for the other drivers (except MS, who without doubt, really doesn't care).

[Alarcon]

Lets see how this 'special' driving style works in a non newey car that is super glued to the track. He was slower than bourdais until torro rosso got the updated newey chassis.

Mmm can I smell the troll envy...

However let´s see the 2 first qualy of the 2008 at Australia (when Bourdais was "faster")


Q1 Q2 Q3

Vettel: 1:26.702 / 1:25.842 / no time
Bourdais: 1:27.446 / Not qualified / Not qualified


Q1 Q2 Q3

Vettel: 1:36.111 / 1:35.648 / Not qualified
Bourdais: 1:36.677 / Not qualified / Not qualified


Bourdais was outqualified 5-13. As Webber is being outqualified right now 12-38... maybe Newey is the responsible...


Casually Seb scored more points than RBR drivers...

Edited by Alarcon, 29 September 2011 - 10:59.

[Jordana]

Lets see how this 'special' driving style works in a non newey car that is super glued to the track. He was slower than bourdais until torro rosso got the updated newey chassis.

I feel sorry for you because you have to be having a hell of a time watching on tv every two weeks how Vettel shows the finger, first on Saturday and then on Sunday... Well, it looks like it could last for a while so be patient and keep cool...

[Afterburner]

Crybabies will be crybabies, I suppose. It's not Vettel and Newey's fault that the rest of the field is just too slow to keep up with them.

At least Alonso and Hamilton aren't beyond showing a little respect when they get beaten.

Edited by Afterburner, 29 September 2011 - 15:03.

[Group B]

Lets see how this 'special' driving style works in a non newey car that is super glued to the track. He was slower than bourdais until torro rosso got the updated newey chassis.

With song a long season you'll have ground your teeth down to stumps by December

[gillesthegenius]

Crybabies will be crybabies, I suppose. It's not Vettel and Newey's fault that the rest of the field is just too slow to keep up with them.;)

At least Alonso and Hamilton aren't beyond showing a little respect when they get beaten.

Exactly.

[flyer121]

Even Martin Brundell mentioned about Seb having a special driving style that reduced the lateral load on the tyres.

Would be very intersting if he indeed does acheive that by letting the rear slide, because I, with my limited knowledge, have always thought that such an oversteery driving style would only harm one's tyres faster.

Could anyone with in depth knowledge of how it works care to explain?

Thats what I would think as well. Sliding is a no no and makes you slower.
And I m not sure Vettel conserves tyres anymore than the rest altho he is much faster than the rest so that may explain it.

And I always thought that you only start turning at the very end of the braking zone. If you brake and turn one of these cars - its very hard to control.
Maybe Vettel has "invented" a driving approach which defies conventional logic - I wouldnt be surprised.

[gillesthegenius]

Thats what I would think as well. Sliding is a no no and makes you slower.
And I m not sure Vettel conserves tyres anymore than the rest altho he is much faster than the rest so that may explain it.

And I always thought that you only start turning at the very end of the braking zone. If you brake and turn one of these cars - its very hard to control.
Maybe Vettel has "invented" a driving approach which defies conventional logic - I wouldnt be surprised.

Neither would I.

[Bunchies]

Thats what I would think as well. Sliding is a no no and makes you slower.

This depends. There is an ideal cornering slip angle (5-6 degrees of slip IIRC) that makes it so that you are in a 4 wheel slide while maintaining maximum traction and corner exit. If the rear didn't slide that tiny bit, the front would likely wash out off track.

[Dusty]

You sure you really watched Barcelona, Monaco, Spa and Monza???

It wasn't literal but either Vettels Redbull is the class of the field or he really does deserve the fullest admiration. Unfortunately we know Webber is a second driver and we don't know whether he is getting as good a car as Vettel is. Remember Webber was able to put Vettel under proper pressure and yet this year seemingly not. When he did in Silverstone he was told to back off. I don't trust Redbull.

[Dusty]

Maybe Vettel has "invented" a driving approach which defies conventional logic - I wouldnt be surprised.

No he hasn't. Vettel seems to be able to get that extra half second in qualli leaving him on pole where it's much easier for a good car to win. How he gets that time is down to the car or how he sets it up compared to mark and as we see mark runs into problems because he isn't starting from pole.

Why Vettel gets that time over Mark is curious but the team won't be complaining about that.

[Higli]

Why Vettel gets that time over Mark is curious but the team won't be complaining about that.

Ach, another conspiracy theory, that's what we all have been waiting for.

Do you have any facts to back your suspicion?