44 replies to this topic

[Dirty Ol Stard]

.... have cost Raikkonen 2 championships and might cost Vettel this years one. Now, i personally think that Newey is the best overall car engineer on the gird today, but something is lacking in his final design. Maybe his approach towards the car design is one more suited for cars before all the cost cutting measures were introduced i dont know, but it seems like that. Please; discuss.

[mrzimferrari]

.... have cost Raikkonen 2 championships and might cost Vettel this years one. Now, i personally think that Newey is the best overall car engineer on the gird today, but something is lacking in his final design. Maybe his approach towards the car design is one more suited for cars before all the cost cutting measures were introduced i dont know, but it seems like that. Please; discuss.

Alternatively, one can easily say that they put Räikkönen and Vettel in a position to fight for the championships and not cost them the titles. Speed and reliability is a fine balanced compromise. Would Räikkönen be considered a quick driver by judging his Ferrari years instead of taking into account when he had Newey rockets on his disposal? The same may turn out to be true for Vettel.

Edited by mrzimferrari, 28 March 2010 - 09:09.

[RedBaron]

Adrian Newey doesn't sit there all alone with a glue gun and carbon fibre building each car like an Airfix kit. Reliability isn't down to him alone there's a whole team in Red Bull and when he was at McLaren around him...

[Nuvol]

Rory Byrne > Newey

[Dirty Ol Stard]

Adrian Newey doesn't sit there all alone with a glue gun and carbon fibre building each car like an Airfix kit. Reliability isn't down to him alone there's a whole team in Red Bull and when he was at McLaren around him...

Yes, i understand that, but, one can not deny that the philosophy of Newey' design is that cars should fall apart once they cross the finish line. I will admit my fault in approaching this matter in this sort of a way if the problems are caused by faulty assembly of the cars itself and not by the design. But it is simply undeniable that for the most part of the 00s Newey' cars have shown the same symptoms of the same illness; lack of reliability. And i can not accept or believe that every single time his cars had reliability problems the problems were caused by the assembly or manufacturing process' and not the design itself.

[FigJam]

Williams Renault from 1992-1997 weren't too bad from a reliability sense. Oh and they were pretty fast.

I don't think Red Bull and previously McLaren's problems can be all attributed to Newey.

[Massa_f1]

Williams Renault from 1992-1997 weren't too bad from a reliability sense. Oh and they were pretty fast.

I don't think Red Bull and previously McLaren's problems can be all attributed to Newey.

91 was though or had he not joined the team at that point?

[MortenF1]

I don't think Newey can be blamed for an exploding brake-disc or a faulty spark-plug.

...but, yes, his cars have been a bit fragile so it's a relevant discussion, just wanted to put my finger on not every break-down being the result of his tightly-packed race-car designs.

Edited by race addicted, 28 March 2010 - 09:20.

[FigJam]

91 was though or had he not joined the team at that point?

Your right. He was there and they did have issues ongoing. Arguably cost Mansell a real shot at the 1991 title.

However that was all sorted once 1992 came about and they never looked back.

Apart from the odd failure here and there....they were rather solid thereafter.

Edited by FIGJAM, 28 March 2010 - 09:22.

[Menace]

Alternatively, one can easily say that they put Räikkönen and Vettel in a position to fight for the championships and not cost them the titles. Speed and reliability is a fine balanced compromise. Would Räikkönen be considered a quick driver by judging his Ferrari years instead of taking into account when he had Newey rockets on his disposal? The same may turn out to be true for Vettel.

Likewise, should Raikkonen be judged by his time in Ferrari, in a car that was clearly never tailored to his driving style, unlike the oversteering Newey Mclaren's?

[Menace]

I don't think Newey can be blamed for an exploding brake-disc or a faulty spark-plug.

...but, yes, his cars have been a bit fragile so it's a relevant discussion, just wanted to put my finger on not every break-down being the result of his tightly-packed race-car designs.

Of course not. But there is a pattern of very fast, yet fragile, Newey cars.

[Madras]

Of course not. But there is a pattern of very fast, yet fragile, Newey cars.

Eh, they havent been fragile this year - read it again a spark plug and a brake disc.

[Dirty Ol Stard]

Eh, they havent been fragile this year - read it again a spark plug and a brake disc.

O_o

Sense; this has none.

[craftverk]

Likewise, should Raikkonen be judged by his time in Ferrari, in a car that was clearly never tailored to his driving style, unlike the oversteering Newey Mclaren's?

Newey + McLaren + Michelins = very neutral car. McLarens were very good with the Michelins, not so much with the Bridgestones.

[Madras]

O_o

Sense; this has none.

These are consumable parts failures nothing to do with car design.

[Lukin83]

I don't think Newey can be blamed for an exploding brake-disc or a faulty spark-plug.

If the brake exploded because of the heat then a part of blame is on the designer though.

[mrzimferrari]

Likewise, should Raikkonen be judged by his time in Ferrari, in a car that was clearly never tailored to his driving style, unlike the oversteering Newey Mclaren's?

No, he should be judged by both parts of his career. That the same reason I oppose the attitude "unreliability cost them the titles" because it should be matched with "but the speed of the car thus achieved let them fight for the titles in first place".

Edited by mrzimferrari, 28 March 2010 - 10:02.

[Cplus]

I don't think Newey can be blamed for an exploding brake-disc or a faulty spark-plug.

i'm not 100% sold on the brake failure yet. looked more like seb simply stuffed up.

If the brake exploded because of the heat then a part of blame is on the designer though.

or, could be from heat stress due to a driver not correctly warming up his brakes in qualifying/practice.....?

[TURU]

RBR have exceptional car (probably illegal ) and still, they screw things up. I hope they won't achieve WDC nor WCC, because they don't deserve it. BTW do you remember Coulthard's suspension falling apart few years ago (in Melbourne) ??

[Francesc]

Could it have been caused by this, when yesterday at qualifying he went sideways at the fast righthander:

[PassWind]

Those sparks are probably from the front wing, its unlikely to be brake related I think.

This is not the first brake failure for Redbull and its not Adrian Newey's problem.

[Archybald]

If you notice on the replay of his "break failure" there appeared to be sparks coming out of his left wheel it appeared on the outside of the left wheel not the inside like this 1.

[Simon Says]

I think it's his driving rather than the car. Much like Kimi "the carbreaker".

edit: I don't think brake damage occurs from stuff like that, because the suspension and everything that's connected to it never makes contact with the ground.

Edited by Simon Says, 28 March 2010 - 10:33.

[DanardiF1]

I think it's his driving rather than the car. Much like Kimi "the carbreaker".

+1

Like the engine issues only hitting Vettel last year, I think he's very tough on the car...

[ThomFi]

A problem with the wheel nut, hardly vettels fault.

AMuS google translation

[Madras]

+1

Like the engine issues only hitting Vettel last year, I think he's very tough on the car...

Cobblers.

[roger44]

+1

Like the engine issues only hitting Vettel last year, I think he's very tough on the car...

that makes more sense, I couldnt see the usual exploding brake evidence, and thought Vet was using brake failure as an excuse for brain fade.

[roger44]

A problem with the wheel nut, hardly vettels fault.

AMuS google translation

that makes more sense, I couldnt see the usual exploding brake evidence, and thought Vet was using brake failure as an excuse for brain fade.

[DrF]

Cobblers.

+10,000

Can't believe people are starting this car breaker stupidity already.

[mrzimferrari]

+10,000

Can't believe people are starting this car breaker stupidity already.

I think that "car breaker" approach holds much more credibility over the "bad luck" one. Not in 1 or two races and I'm not saying that Vettel broke his car but over a driver's career good and bad luck even out.

[beute]

+1

Like the engine issues only hitting Vettel last year, I think he's very tough on the car...

how can you be tough on the car?
explain it.

He's fast, he drives as he has to drive.
He drives like anyone else, it's not like he drives at 18000rpm in the first gear...
he cant do anything about it, driving style has nothing to do with the engine.

it's just bad luck.

[magisenna]

how can you be tough on the car?
explain it.

He's fast, he drives as he has to drive.
He drives like anyone else, it's not like he drives at 18000rpm in the first gear...
he cant do anything about it, driving style has nothing to do with the engine.

it's just bad luck.

People used to throw the same **** at Montoya at Williams and Kimi at Mclaren. Really uneducated BS. In the old turbo days, yes you could overdrive, its a different formula now. Google Patrick Head's view on the matter..... I'll take his word ta.

[SeanValen]

Who knows how Newey has built this car, so far I've been worried about reliability, and for some reason didn't have confidence Vettel will finish, but it is the first races, and they have pace, so reliability can be sorted unless there is built in issues.

[mrzimferrari]

People used to throw the same **** at Montoya at Williams and Kimi at Mclaren. Really uneducated BS. In the old turbo days, yes you could overdrive, its a different formula now. Google Patrick Head's view on the matter..... I'll take his word ta.

It's not as easy or immediate as it used to be when a missed gear could blow the things up in a second but there are many ways to do it even now: consistently attack a kerb on a particular angle, combine throttle and brakes in a way that doesn't benefit the car, flatspot a tyre and provoke vibration, spend too much time behind another car and therefore raise water/oil temperature a fraction too much, etc. There's no such thing as bad luck over a whole career.

Edited by mrzimferrari, 28 March 2010 - 22:20.

[ApolloBluecat]

Did anyone notice when Webber stopped for tires, the front right wheel area sparked briefly as the wheel was removed, seemed to be coming from the disc area. Maybe a portent of brake problems, overheating perhaps.

Regards

Nic Jackson

Edited by ApolloBluecat, 28 March 2010 - 14:06.

[Paco]

Relability is more to do with Quality Control then design principles... however if Newey is compromising QC for Speed (making parts to light, unstructurely sound design) etc. Then Newey could be to blame.

It's probably a bit of both.. Newey pushing it a bit too far and QC not necessarily as sound a group as it could be. Either way, it's better to be a bit weak at the front of the grid then 100% sound fighting midpack....

Edited by Paco, 28 March 2010 - 14:56.

[slideways]

I think you are being far too harsh on Newey. Ok, perhaps cooling is an issue for the brakes, or packaging on the engine but this is speculation and we really can't tell.

As a side note RB4/5 lost wheels very easily but with the new suspension arms (like Mp4-25) RB6 looks like a tank.

[V8 Fireworks]

.... have cost Raikkonen 2 championships and might cost Vettel this years one. Now, i personally think that Newey is the best overall car engineer on the gird today, but something is lacking in his final design. Maybe his approach towards the car design is one more suited for cars before all the cost cutting measures were introduced i dont know, but it seems like that. Please; discuss.

"Win as a team, lose as a team"

Why did Vettel sign long contract, instead of signing a Ferrari pre-deal!!?? Blame vettel!

[packapoo]

I think you are being far too harsh on Newey. Ok, perhaps cooling is an issue for the brakes, or packaging on the engine but this is speculation and we really can't tell.

As a side note RB4/5 lost wheels very easily but with the new suspension arms (like Mp4-25) RB6 looks like a tank.

Some person name of Chapman designed cars that were at times somewhat failure prone too.
On occasion cost lives.

[Lights]

Webber doesn't seem to have much problems at all with Newey designed cars.

Actually, he had worse 'bad luck' driving for Williams.

[Stormsky68]

Thats a very simplistic view to blame Newey.

Newey will not oversee the design of every little component, nut and bolt on the car, the fault lies more with their testing processes

Besides Vettel does 'seem' to break an awful lot of cars compared with Webber so this is maybe more of an issue? Honda had something similar with Jenson and Sato as I recall...

Red Bull also don't seem particularly fast at fixing issues and developing the car in season in the way McLaren and Ferrari do

Fundamentally I don't think Red Bull know how to win a championship yet, its not just about how fast the car is. Rather than insulting Ron they should maybe study how he, Ross and others have been so successful?

[ViMaMo]

Red Bull is fast because Newey is back.
Hope they sort out the reliability issues.

[PayasYouRace]

I think that "car breaker" approach holds much more credibility over the "bad luck" one. Not in 1 or two races and I'm not saying that Vettel broke his car but over a driver's career good and bad luck even out.

Luck isn't some zero sum effect that magically evens out over a driver's career. It is entirely possible and reasonable to get a career of bad luck (Chris Amon?), or to not have things go wrong very often. (I hesitate to used the term good luck when speaking about any of the WDCs, because then posters here will rip me to shreads for suggesting that "their" favourite driver was "lucky" as if that undermined their skill level)

[CaptainJackSparrow]

I get the feeling the RB cars are right on the edge of how far they can be pushed, in fact they are probably a touch over it. When you mix that with Seb's pretty tough driving style it's not hard for things to start to fail.

I think reliability gets underplayed, people say that performance is what it's all about, and it is to a large part, but you need reliability to convert race wins into championship wins. If that comes at the cost of a bit of performance, well maybe that's something Red Bull should look at because you gotta be in it to win it.

[pgj]

I tend towards the view that Adrian has given opportunities to driver to win championships. The DDD robbed RBR of at least one championship last year, I hope that reliability does not take another championship out of reach. RBR has had the best designed car, overall, in the last two seasons.