20 replies to this topic

[D-Type]

I've just purchased Chris Ellard's Long Forgotten Races which covers non-championship Formula 1 races from 1954 to 1964. Much of the book comprises reprints of race reports from The Autocar or The Motor. These reports are fully detailed including grids, full race results etc - they also cover the supporting races. Can anyone say how accurate these reports were compared to Autosport or Motor Sport? I get the impression the reports are of comparable quality.

Nowadays I think of Autocar (is it still officially Autocar and Motor?) as the sort of magazine you read in the doctor's waiting room and focussing almost entirely on road cars. When did they stop providing extensive race reports?

[bradbury west]

or Motor Sport?

A very stylish, and loyal, touch there, Duncan
RL

[MCS]

A very stylish, and loyal, touch there, Duncan
RL

An interesting topic. I rarely bought either publication simply because there was so much focus on road cars and road car testing - simply not my cup of tea. Road cars have always bored me.

Occasionally though, I would buy a copy and, yes, the Grand Prix reports were always pretty good. Nowhere near the level of detail to be found in either Autosport or Motoring News admittedly and certainly with nothing even approaching the expert perspective provided by Motor Sport's Continental Correspondent, but nonetheless a different view of a Grand Prix. And let's not forget, we rarely had even a dozen Grands Prix most seasons until 1973 and nothing like the blanket/saturation coverage we have these days.

Every now and then one would be cajoled into buying it because they would be including a short series of Michael Turner prints or a selection of coloured line drawings of Grand Prix cars, but I always felt it left me wanting more.

I can remember in 1971 they covered the opening Rothmans F5000 round at Mallory Park, but I'm not sure they ever properly re-visited the series again that season. Maybe they had been short of copy that week...

I found a handful of stray copies of both Motor and Autocar the other week and simply put them out for recycling.

Just back to Duncan's original post regarding "Long Forgotten Races" for a moment: does the book also cover the supporting races?

[D-Type]

It doesn't consciously set out to cover the supporting races. But, as it reproduces whole magazine pages as facsimiles rather than reprints the text and many reports covered the complete meeting it does frequently include all the support races for the British meetings..

[Odseybod]

Think it's worth remembering that both "The Motor" and "The Autocar" were working to quite tight deadlines for their Grand Prix reports. With a publication date on the Wednesday of each week, "The Motor" in particular was really up against it, with the photographer usually having to leave a continental GP before the end of the race, in order to get the films into the London darkroom on the Sunday night, while the journalist had to write the report and dictate it over the phone that evening - much cursing if there was a late amendment to the official results! "The Autocar"'s Friday publication date gave them a slightly easier life.

I don't think they should be judged on the strength of their race reports alone - there was usually some follow-up comment in the following week's "Sporting Side" (M) or "The Sport" (A) sections that put some flesh on the bones. Bear in mind that they were also giving the major rallies (particularly the Monte) similar coverage. And I'd even dare to suggest their Le Mans reports were more detailed than "Motor Sport"'s, often spread over three issues that covered the entry list/scrutineering/practice, the actual race and the retrospective reflections on it.

I may be slightly biassed in singing their praises. Still, I do think it's amazing what both regularly achieved without the aid of digital feeds, laptops, WiFi links and digital cameras.

[sterling49]

I took both periodicals in the '60s and thought the races they covered, were actually very good, with some excellent photos too. They just spread themselves too thinly because they were a general motoring magazine, rather than a specialist publication. As Mark has said about Oulton, they covered an International meeting at Brands ( I cannot remember which) but had great photos of some of the Gp5 saloons too.

Edited by sterling49, 03 April 2010 - 22:07.

[Doug Nye]

I have vivid - and not altogether comfortable - memories of sitting on the floor of the tiny telephone cubicle in Spa's Hotel Rosette dictating 1,000Km race reports to Beryl, back in 'Motor's London offices - "The Huron, yes that is H-U-R-O-N became a non-starter, much to the embarrassment of its sponsors, Camel, yes that is C-A-M-E-L...hello, hello? Can you hear me? HELLO? Oh for crying out loud..." etc. 'Motor' reports during the 1950s by Rodney Walkerly were excellent, and Philip Turner who followed him as Sports Editor was also very good. 'Autocar's sports editor Peter Garnier - ex-wartime MTB/coastal forces officer - was the secretary of the Grand Prix Drivers' Association for a long period, and offered excellent insider perspective and detail. 'Motor' was Temple Press and 'Autocar' Iliffe, until I believe both were absorbed by the Reed Group. Having two rival publications in house was nuts, so 'Motor' was subsumed into 'Autocar', whereas many of us found 'Motor' the better publication, and generally its staffers tended to be more colourful and were more fun. But these things are all relative, of course. Haymarket then took over the 'Autocar' title, and continues to produce it today... In their heyday these weeklies sold at best some 200,000 each, every week. Times change.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 03 April 2010 - 23:03.

[raceannouncer2003]

I have vivid - and not altogether comfortable - memories of sitting on the floor of the tiny telephone cubicle in Spa's Hotel Rosette dictating 1,000Km race reports to Beryl, back in 'Motor's London offices

In the 60s, I reported to Competition Press on Westwood races. I would go from our home in White Rock, British Columbia, Canada, across the border to Blaine, Washington, U.S.A., and, from a phone booth, dictate my reports to Leon Mandel.

Vince H.

[wenoopy]

'Motor' reports during the 1950s by Rodney Walkerly were excellent, and Philip Turner who followed him as Sports Editor was also very good. 'Motor' was Temple Press

Mention of Rodney Walkerley calls to mind a passage in Mike Hawthorn's "Champion Year". After the 1958 Belgian GP he accepted a ride from Walkerley, along with artist Roy Nockolds, from Spa to Paris, whence he was heading to Le Mans. Setting off after lunch, they journeyed in leisurely and circuitous fashion, with more than a few refreshment stops, and made Dinant, a mere 50 miles from Spa, by nightfall, and booked in for the night. The following day, in similar mode, they made Reims, where the two passengers decided to continue to Paris by train, leaving Walkerley to motor on at 40 mph.

Mention of Temple Press brings up a printing peculiarity. In most books, the name on the spine reads downwards. However, in my motoring collection, I see that the French, Monaco, German GP books of their 'Classic Motor Races' series, and 'My 20 years of Motor Racing' - Fangio, and a couple of 'Motor Cycling' annuals from the same period run upwards. Likewise Edita S.A.'s 'Automobile Year'.
English eccentricity maybe, but Swiss?

[Joe Nix]

The Autocar holds a very special place in my education on motorsports. Being a "yank" I "discovered" it and subscribed when stationed in Eritrea in 1954. There was no depth to any other race reports available to us there. It remained somewhat my bible for another 15 yrs, then it held such a warm nostalgia spot with me that I only let go my my third collection when moving in the late 80's. Over those years I owned 7 British vehicles and ordered parts via the classifieds. It was a relaxing publication, tours of the countryside, camping, etc.

[Roger Clark]

A particular strength of The Motor was its Technical Editors: Laurence Pomeroy and later Joseph Lowrey. The wrote serious articles about racing and road cars, frankly far better than anything John Bolster wrote for Autosport. I would love to see some of those articles republished.

They were men of character too. Many will be familiar with Pomeroy's style from The Grand Prix Car and (with Moss) Design and Behaviour of the Racing Car. His interest in racing was mainly technical. Drivers were an inconvenience. He once wrote an article proposing a grand prix car with two 750cc engines: one in front and one behind the driver. He argued the case with typical Pomeroy logic but thenreality seemd to strike: where would the driver put his legs? His answer was that he wouldn't have any! These drivers were so dedicated to success that amputation would be a a small price to pay. Anthoer time he proved that running a vintage Rolls-Royce was cheaper - by £1 a year! - than running a modern car. Lowrey once wrote an article on the year's road cars. He rated them according to a formula he didn't reveal; instead he offerred a competition to readers to guess the formula. A few weeks later, having published numerous entries, he had to confess that he had forgotten it.

Other writers I remember, apart from those already mentioned, were Roanld Barker and Edward Eves of The Autocar, Richard Bensted-smith and D B Tubbs of The Motor. They were all grounded in motors and motor racing and it showed in their writing.

In 1964, both magazines dropped the definitive article from their titles and changed style; most of these people left soon after. The first edition of Motor had a picture of a woman in a swimming costume on the cover. A letter the next week said: "no wonder you have to resort to sex to sell it". Even as a 14 year-old, I knew what he meant.

[MCS]

It doesn't consciously set out to cover the supporting races. But, as it reproduces whole magazine pages as facsimiles rather than reprints the text and many reports covered the complete meeting it does frequently include all the support races for the British meetings..

I've not seen a copy of the book, although I've tried without success to get it on eBay a couple of times.

However, I'm intrigued that it uses reproduced magazine pages. Rather unusual.

I shall increase my efforts to get in now in light of D-Type's note!

[P. Dron]

'Motor' was Temple Press and 'Autocar' Iliffe, until I believe both were absorbed by the Reed Group. Having two rival publications in house was nuts, so 'Motor' was subsumed into 'Autocar', whereas many of us found 'Motor' the better publication, and generally its staffers tended to be more colourful and were more fun. But these things are all relative, of course. Haymarket then took over the 'Autocar' title, and continues to produce it today... In their heyday these weeklies sold at best some 200,000 each, every week. Times change.

DCN

Not quite right, Doug. Autocar was sold by IPC to Haymarket, which most of us at the time (early 1984 if memory serves) regarded as a bad business decision, to put it mildly. At the time, Motor was the stronger-selling title and it made substantial profits, even though the circulation was steadily diminishing, while Autocar, also losing readers, just about broke even. A Publishing Director of Autocar who had made some intelligent recommendations, a couple of years before, for changing the magazine (either making it monthly or else turning it into an inexpensive weekly newspaper) was sacked, probably for being too clever compared with his superiors on the IPC Board. As another Publishing Director, Graham Sheath, once said, 'Things are so tough in this company, you can even be stabbed in the chest.'

As soon as Autocar had been sold, IPC and Haymarket were locked into a war for circulation and advertising, and it was merely a question of who would blink first. Those of us employed by IPC were not surprised by the outcome. Motor was sold to Haymarket and then effectively folded as the two titles were merged, and IPC had scuttled its strong position in the motoring market.

[CNE]

I've not seen a copy of the book, although I've tried without success to get it on eBay a couple of times.

However, I'm intrigued that it uses reproduced magazine pages. Rather unusual.

I shall increase my efforts to get in now in light of D-Type's note!

Apologies for hijacking this thread but perhaps I could just answer a couple of points/questions posed by MCS.

I agree it is an unusual format but it is one that the likes of Brookland Books and Unique Motor Books have adopted in the past. We took the general concept to Haymarket who - I have to say - could not have been more helpful, or supportive, throughout our dealings with them.

Rather than re-hash the race reports we felt it better to leave them in their contemporary setting. Let us be honest the nature of the average report then was so different from today in that they oozed their own charm as well as placing them firmly in their own era. To get a feel for these events as a whole we elected to include the supporting acts as well rather than just the Formula One races.

I should just say that the book is not entirely made up of reports as it is interspersed with race results and statistics as well as images from the likes of LAT, Suttons, PA Photos, Getty, Klem Coll., MPL, etc.

My good friend, Simon Lewis, is currently selling the book on his website. Not sure about eBay but I believe copies of the previous volume, The Forgotten Races, turn up on there from time to time. I am afraid I have no idea what they sell for. Probably better not to know!!

Sorry to interrupt.

Chris E

Edited by CNE, 04 April 2010 - 11:57.

[D-Type]

~

Mention of Temple Press brings up a printing peculiarity. In most books, the name on the spine reads downwards. However, in my motoring collection, I see that the French, Monaco, German GP books of their 'Classic Motor Races' series, and 'My 20 years of Motor Racing' - Fangio, and a couple of 'Motor Cycling' annuals from the same period run upwards. Likewise Edita S.A.'s 'Automobile Year'.
English eccentricity maybe, but Swiss?

I've just had a look at my 100-odd motoring library on the bookshelf (the ubiquitous "Billy" from Ikea for those who are interested in that sort of thing). There are a mere half dozen whose titles read downhill:
David Hodges's Le Mans 24-Hour race (Temple Press)
David Hodges's Monaco Grand Prix (Temple Press)
Innes Ireland's Motor Racing today (Arthur Barker)
Denis Jenkinson's A story of Formula 1 (Grenville)
Denis Jenkinson's Racing Car Pocket Book (Batsford)
Bill Boddy's Sports Car Pocket Book (Batsford)

There's no logical reason why these six should buck the trend.

Looking at my bookshelf a second time, I now realise why the spine normally reads downwards: if you lay a book flat with its cover uppermost, which is the logical way, then the title on the spine is the right way up.

MCS/ CNE, - I bought my copy from www.SimonLewis.com. Highly efficient - I ordered on a Sunday and the book arrived the following Thursday well packed so it was in pristine condition.

[MCS]

Apologies for hijacking this thread but perhaps I could just answer a couple of points/questions posed by MCS.

I agree it is an unusual format but it is one that the likes of Brookland Books and Unique Motor Books have adopted in the past. We took the general concept to Haymarket who - I have to say - could not have been more helpful, or supportive, throughout our dealings with them.

Rather than re-hash the race reports we felt it better to leave them in their contemporary setting. Let us be honest the nature of the average report then was so different from today in that they oozed their own charm as well as placing them firmly in their own era. To get a feel for these events as a whole we elected to include the supporting acts as well rather than just the Formula One races.

I should just say that the book is not entirely made up of reports as it is interspersed with race results and statistics as well as images from the likes of LAT, Suttons, PA Photos, Getty, Klem Coll., MPL, etc.

My good friend, Simon Lewis, is currently selling the book on his website. Not sure about eBay but I believe copies of the previous volume, The Forgotten Races, turn up on there from time to time. I am afraid I have no idea what they sell for. Probably better not to know!!

Sorry to interrupt.

Chris E

Thank you for your note, Chris - didn't realise you were a TNFer!

I will make the necessary arrangements

[CNE]

Thank you for your note, Chris - didn't realise you were a TNFer!

I will make the necessary arrangements

Yep, slowly working towards membership of the Paddock Club. About 2018 at the rate I'm going!

D-Type. Thanks, I'll pass your kind comments on to Simon.

Chris E

[john aston]

Both magazines had some very handy drivers as well as journalists- Roger Bell, Perry McCarthy and more recently both Chris Harris and Steve Sutcliffe can certainly punt a car very quickly around a circuit. I also used to enjoy the articles written by RAB Cook .

[HDonaldCapps]

Well into the Sixties, albeit somewhat limited, the motor racing coverage that both magazines provided for the season's grands prix (to include the non-championship events as well) was better than most would expect. The weekly racing "gossip" columns from that era in the two magazines are often the sources of delightful and invaluable nuggets of information. Between Autocar, Motor, Autosport, Motor Sport, Autocourse, Competition Press, Road & Track, and Sports Car Graphic, one can develop a very good view of the Zeitgeist of a season from the late Fifties until about the end of the Sixties. I was pleasantly surprised to find that both Motor and Autocar proved to be very useful and valuable resources when examining the 1964 season. Initially, I had not planned to use them, but I kept finding them as excellent source material and in the end was very happy that I had change my mind.

[Tim Murray]

He once wrote an article proposing a grand prix car with two 750cc engines: one in front and one behind the driver. He argued the case with typical Pomeroy logic but thenreality seemd to strike: where would the driver put his legs? His answer was that he wouldn't have any!

Alec Issigonis came up with a very similar concept ('After dinner design' from Motor 8-May-65). The Issigonis version - for the new formula coming in 1966 - had two 1500 cc engines as stressed members at each end of a full monocoque chassis, with a conning tower for the driver to see out of. One engine drove the front wheels and the other the rear, with completely separate transmission systems as Issigonis reckoned (citing the twin-engined Moke) that there might be times when the driver might want different drive ratios at front and back.

I also greatly preferred Motor to Autocar, and was sad when it got swallowed up.

[Terry Walker]

RAB Cook emigrated, I recall. Was in Australia for a while. I used to get both papers, here in Australia, until it became ludicrous - TWO weeklies, both UK, both mostly classified ads. I remember when Motor went to offset litho and "perfect" binding, and the square backed glue bindings lasted no longer than the same binding on my book "Around the Houses" - until, roughly, you had opened it twice. Then it would disintegrate.