14 replies to this topic

[Michael Ferner]

I'm trying to find specs about aircraft engines that were used in Big Car/Sprint Car racing in the USofA, 1920s to 50s - I have a good library of automotive books, but no knowledge at all about aviation, and these days it is very difficult finding info on the web, most links only lead to useless wikipedia stuff. So, perhaps some of the posters here are knowledgable about aircraft engines? Let's party!

1) best known of all was/is perhaps the "Hisso", originally a WW1 surplus V8 engine designed by Hispano-Suiza, and built in licence (and some quantities) by several US companies. It was a shaft-driven SOHC with two valves per cylinder in line, measuring 120*130 mm (11.8 litres), and apart from a very few early examples it was mostly used as "half an engine", meaning one 4-cylinder block with the original crankcase patched up, or with a custom made one. Actually, I have quite a bit data on this one, but one thing that bugs me is that I cannot find a reliable source telling me the type designation of the original engine! Some say it's the type (or model) "A", others "H", "E", "L" or "I" Until today I believed "H" to be the most likely, but then I found a google-book link to an old book about aeroplane engines in which the "H" was described as an 18.5-litre version of the same basic design as the "E", which matched the data I know about the engine used in racing.

So, as an hors d'ouevre (it will become more difficult!), who knows the type designation of the original WW1 "Hisso" engine?

Edited by Michael Ferner, 15 April 2010 - 19:02.

[Michael Ferner]

2) In 1938, AAA took over the new 4.5-litre Grand Prix formula, and the Hissos were relegated to the independent ("outlaw") racing clubs, but it seems that a very few raced on in the premier league! I have read somehwere that it was a "later design" engine, allegedly type "E4", but nothing else about it. For the original Hisso to be eligible for AAA racing, it would have to have been scaled down, perhaps with a new block and a destroker shaft, but there seems to be little gain in that - in fact, the only reason the Hisso was so popular was that it was not only cheap, but also considerably bigger than pur sang racing engines or Ford conversions, and a lot more powerful than passenger car engines of the same size. But a scaled down Hisso doesn't make sense, because of the cost involved and because it was no bigger than the largest Offies now. So, what engine could it have been? Anyone ever heard of a Hispano-Suiza "E4" engine?

[Michael Ferner]

3) Next in line regarding its popularity was probably the Ranger engine, many of them ran post-WW2 in independent racing clubs such as IMCA, CSRA etc. All pictures of Ranger-powered cars I've seen show 6 exhaust ports, and some were described as "inverted" and even as air-cooled, so from what I can gather it simply has to be the type "6-440C". I couldn't find much more than some basic specs: SOHC, 4 1/8*5 1/2 inches (7.2 litres), 200 hp, CR 7.5, apparently two valves per cylinder and shaft-drive, too. Basically, I'm quite happy with that, but could do with some more (size and angle of valves, number and type of bearings etc.), and perhaps some info on its gestation (e.g. designed and built in the "mid-thirties" - what year, and by whom etc.). Thanks for any help!

[Michael Ferner]

4) Many know about Soichiro Honda's first special, powered by an OX-5 Curtiss engine, but other more modern Curtiss engines were used for a number of years in the US. A Southern gentleman by the name of Buddy Callaway raced a Curtiss Special for many years, and I've seen it described as a "K6" type, and later also as "half an aviation engine". Now, I've found out that there was a Curtiss "K6", and also a "K12" that was apparently a V12 version of the six-cylinder "K6", so both descriptions may refer to the same engine, in fact. Anyway, pictures of the Callaway car clearly show 12 exhaust ports, which ties in nicely with the 4-valve-per-cylinder design of the "K6"/"K12". What else do I know? Apparently designed in 1919 by a bloke named Charles Kirkham, 4 1/2*6 inches (9.4 litres), it had a somewhat unique cylinder block design with liners, produced about 180 hp at 2,000 rpm, weighed about 400 lbs and had an odd valve gear: DOHC, but parallel valves (1 5/8 inches diameter), i.e. a flat combustion chamber!! That true?

[ray b]

E-2 and E-4 were built in the USA by wright [brothers]

http://www.pilotfrie.../aero_hissi.htm

maybe the letters are for makers not different models
and the numbers are the model/type running changes

OX-5's were built in vast numbers and dirt cheap war surplus
http://www.pilotfrie...es/aero_ox5.htm

Edited by ray b, 15 April 2010 - 20:28.

[Michael Ferner]

5) Another Curtiss engine was raced by Ben Shaw from New Jersey, first in AAA competition (1937) and later IMCA. It was described as a four-cylinder, built from a six-cylinder aircraft engine! That obviously doesn't describe an engine like the "K6" for a couple of reasons: a) four cylinders of 4 1/2*6 inches makes 6.3 litres, too much for the 6-litre AAA limit on displacement, and b) the "K6" had one single block for all its six cylinders. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that Shaw may have had a new block cast, with a suitably reduced bore, but add to that another casting for the seperate head, the grinding of new camshafts and a new crank - that's a heck of a lot of work for a bitza engine! Not to mention his car looked very much "second-hand" as well - obviously, it wasn't a "money operation"! So, any ideas on this engine?

[Michael Ferner]

6) Curtiss engine number 3 was raced by a gentleman from Kentucky, with the colourful name of Engelbert Hellmueller (I kid you not!). Again, it was described as an aviation engine (no surprise here!), but apart from that the info is scarce - one note about the displacement being 580 cubic inches (9.5 litres), but that bit has to be taken with a grain of salt. Apparently, Mr. Hellmueller ran two cars with Curtiss engines (one was even described as a Maserati chassis!), and substituted both of them with Rangers in the early fifties, so there's already enough confusion, but I've also seen the Curtiss engine in his car described as a "Condor" model - but wasn't that a radial engine??? Anyway, one picture of what I feel sure is his Curtiss special shows eight exhaust ports, with a slight centre bearing gap in the middle, and the carb on the other side - btw, all engines described here exhaust to the right - the oil pan/crankcase has a uniform surface and a straight lower edge, and that's all I can say. What can it be?

[ray b]

nice pictures of a custom cased H-s race motor
http://winfield.50me...HissoEngine.htm

nice links to racecars useing h-s motors on the bottom of that page too

Edited by ray b, 15 April 2010 - 20:50.

[Michael Ferner]

7) Finally (at least for now, until I can think of anything I might have forgotten), there was a Hall-Scott engine used in at least one car in the late twenties. Very little info on this one, just that it had four cylinders, and a very grainy picture that appears to show a right-hand exhaust and DOHC?!? Googling brought about a 4-cylinder Hall-Scott type "L4", circa 1918, 5*7 inches (9 litres) and about 125 hp. That's all I can find, anyone with more info or a better idea?

[ray b]

original V8 H-S aircraft motor was the A then an Aa and Ab followed by a Ba improved version then a Bb all H-S built

se-5 and later spads used the Bb

as per this link

http://www.absolutea...Hispano-Suiza_8

the 18.5 bigger version was a ''F''

Edited by ray b, 15 April 2010 - 21:09.

[Michael Ferner]

E-2 and E-4 were built in the USA by wright [brothers]

http://www.pilotfrie.../aero_hissi.htm

maybe the letters are for makers not different models
and the numbers are the model/type running changes

OX-5's were built in vast numbers and dirt cheap war surplus
http://www.pilotfrie...es/aero_ox5.htm

Well, thanks for that! Makes sense, if you think about it: "E" was probably the correct type designation for the original V8, and the numbers refered to the US manufacturers. Still, what to make of the "later design"/4.5-litre version of that Hisso...

As for OX-5s, I don't think they were much used in racing, certainly not past the first post-WW1 years.

nice pictures of a custom cased H-s race motor
http://winfield.50me...HissoEngine.htm

nice links to racecars useing h-s motors on the bottom of that page too

I know that site, and it's very good - gave me lots of info! Still, I'm not sure of that designation, "Model A" - doesn't ring true.

[ray b]

I donot think any french motors made it to the USA in any numbers
with the stacks of war surplus local built motors around and cheap too
so wright built ''E'' motors were the racemotors used in our races
but those are later then the 1915 originals made in france and used up in the war effort

[dosco]

I'm trying to find specs about aircraft engines that were used in Big Car/Sprint Car racing in the USofA, 1920s to 50s - I have a good library of automotive books, but no knowledge at all about aviation, and these days it is very difficult finding info on the web, most links only lead to useless wikipedia stuff. So, perhaps some of the posters here are knowledgable about aircraft engines? Let's party!

1) best known of all was/is perhaps the "Hisso", originally a WW1 surplus V8 engine designed by Hispano-Suiza, and built in licence (and some quantities) by several US companies. It was a shaft-driven SOHC with two valves per cylinder in line, measuring 120*130 mm (11.8 litres), and apart from a very few early examples it was mostly used as "half an engine", meaning one 4-cylinder block with the original crankcase patched up, or with a custom made one. Actually, I have quite a bit data on this one, but one thing that bugs me is that I cannot find a reliable source telling me the type designation of the original engine! Some say it's the type (or model) "A", others "H", "E", "L" or "I" Until today I believed "H" to be the most likely, but then I found a google-book link to an old book about aeroplane engines in which the "H" was described as an 18.5-litre version of the same basic design as the "E", which matched the data I know about the engine used in racing.

So, as an hors d'ouevre (it will become more difficult!), who knows the type designation of the original WW1 "Hisso" engine?

Michael:
I have reviewed the entry in Bill Gunston's "World Encyclopaedia of Aero Engines," 4th Edition. There is nothing specific about your question of "which engine was used in motor racing" but there is quite a bit about the development of the engine.

Original 1914 engine, Type A, water cooled V-8 with cyliders of 120mmx130mm (11.76 L), 202kg, 140hp.

Type B ... inline 4 cylinder, 143kg, 75hp.

Type 8Aa ... 175hp.

Type 8Ab ... 200 - 205hp.

Type 8Ba ... 220hp.

December 1916, Model "H", cylinders of 140mmx150mm (18.47 L), 270kg, 308hp.

Hardly authoratative, but interesting information nonetheless.

Edited by dosco, 16 April 2010 - 12:29.

[dosco]

7) Finally (at least for now, until I can think of anything I might have forgotten), there was a Hall-Scott engine used in at least one car in the late twenties. Very little info on this one, just that it had four cylinders, and a very grainy picture that appears to show a right-hand exhaust and DOHC?!? Googling brought about a 4-cylinder Hall-Scott type "L4", circa 1918, 5*7 inches (9 litres) and about 125 hp. That's all I can find, anyone with more info or a better idea?

There is an entry regarding this type in the Gunston book.

"With Curtiss, this San Francisco companywas the US leader in water-cooled engines prior to World War I. The first (pre-1908) engine was a 4-in-line supposed to give 30hp, with cylinders 4 in square. Subsequent engines were mainly 6-in-lines or V-8s, one of the latter (designated an A-2) rated at 60hp at 1,100rpm flying at the 1910 Belmont Park meet.
...
...
Smaller numbers of the 4-in-line 100hp A-7 and the corresponding 200hp V-8. The big 5 x 7 in cylinder was the starting point of the Liberty."

[Charles E Taylor]

Aircraft Engine Information

While this site may not have the explicit information sought here, it offers a wealth of interest.



http://www.enginehis...org/engines.htm


I'm sure you will find some interesting information.



I hope this helps.



Charlie