480 replies to this topic

[TT6]

After seeing Hamilton-Vettel incident being investigated after the China race today, I was pretty sure the incident was about Hamilton overtaking Vettel cutting the corner just before the pit entry. But it was not, as we've seen.

I also saw Alonso taking the exact same manouvre on Massa (was it even during the safety car period).

Neither move was investigated, reprimanded or punished. I wonder why. Is it ok? And if it is ok, how's that different compared to cutting a chicane to gain a position during a race.

[froggy22]

but they didnt cut the corner....

[BenettonB192]

It's very strange indeed. On the actual track when you leave it and get an advantage from it you are supposed to give the position back or you will face a penalty. At least in the Alonso/Massa incident this seemed like such a situation. Maybe the rules for the pit entry ar less clear?

Edited by BenettonB192, 18 April 2010 - 13:01.

[Brandz07]

and lewis didnt overtake vettel...

[stevvy1986]

but they didnt cut the corner....

Exactly. Simple as that.

[demoing]

the simple fact is lewis was ahead of Vettel when they entered the pit lane and so he did not overtake anyone on the entrance hence why they were not pulled in front of the stewards for that.
However Alonso did overtake Massa hence why they were

[harrows]

and lewis didnt overtake vettel...

Vettel was in front. And on the proper lane. Lewis goes around the white lines and cuts through the apex with part of his car. If that's not overtaking...

the simple fact is lewis was ahead of Vettel when they entered the pit lane and so he did not overtake anyone on the entrance hence why they were not pulled in front of the stewards for that.
However Alonso did overtake Massa hence why they were

Is that a fact?

http://i43.tinypic.com/4rs57l.jpg

Edited by harrows, 18 April 2010 - 13:07.

[TT6]

and lewis didnt overtake vettel...

So what do I see here at the beginning?



I think I see Vettel entering the pit entry, then Hamilton passes him inside, off the track, cutting the last corner before the pitlane.

Edited by TT6, 18 April 2010 - 13:09.

[harrows]

Actually, it's a lot worse than I thought. Hamo goes all 4 wheels off track at the corner too:

http://i42.tinypic.com/nf1yiw.jpg

Alonso probably did the same?

Edited by harrows, 18 April 2010 - 13:13.

[Dragonfly]

So what do I see here at the beginning?

I think I see Vettel entering the pit entry, then Hamilton passes him inside, off the track, cutting the last corner before the pitlane.

Second time in a row.

[otoelpiloto]

the simple fact is lewis was ahead of Vettel when they entered the pit lane and so he did not overtake anyone on the entrance hence why they were not pulled in front of the stewards for that.
However Alonso did overtake Massa hence why they were

alonso was ahead too

[MegaManson]

I don't see the big deal in either incident tbh

Villeneuve overtook Hill on the grass in Hungary 1997 even though it wasn't the pitlane run up

As long as drivers don't act like idiots in the mechanics working area the grass is fair game

[R2D2]

On the replay the BBC showed you could see Lewis gesturing to Vettel that he was going into the pits. He did this because it looked like Vettel was trying to overtake him on the outside of the corner at that point -- there would probably have been an accident if Lewis had simply driven into the pit lane and Vettel had turned in on him. So in fairness Lewis was simply retaking his position that he had compromised by thinking of the safety of both of them. Maybe a poor place to have the pit lane entry?

[MrAerodynamicist]

Vettel was never ahead of Lewis. He had caught Lewis' tow down the straight and was attempting to go around the outside.

[TT6]

I don't see the big deal in either incident tbh

Villeneuve overtook Hill on the grass in Hungary 1997 even though it wasn't the pitlane run up

As long as drivers don't act like idiots in the mechanics working area the grass is fair game

So taking the shorter route off the track to make a pass is allowed in the pit entry even thou it's not allowed in the normal track?

I'd be really intrested in seeing some support for this view from the rule perspective. You mentioned a precedence, but I think that someone getting away without a punishment doesn't necesarily mean there wasn't a violation.

[VoRteX]

Not according to Massa and alonso

don't lie. it looks bad on yourself.

Lewis was very ggresive there, but i dont think he was being a dirty driver.
simply a better and more fighting driver.
good for him.
and good for fernando too.
going before massa was the right thing to do.
great race from both

[Seanspeed]

Vettel was never ahead of Lewis. He had caught Lewis' tow down the straight and was attempting to go around the outside.

Thats what I remember happening.

[Sausage]

There is no official rule that you should hold to the pit-entry lines, it's free for all. The lines are there for the viewers and drivers but they don't have a rule to them.

Lewis and Fernando are simply 2 smart guys and STOP using the word "cutting" here, your being ridiculous if you do.

[BenettonB192]

Now that i've seen the videos i think both situations can be considered as getting an advantage from leaving the track. However i don't know if the pit entry counts as track. But i would think so as it has two white lines on each side. Rule clarification would indeed be interesting if someone knows the paragraphs.

[Katsumi]

but they didnt cut the corner....

Question = answered, close this thread

[Edgar0001]

I believe that Hamilton was wrong to enter the pits the way he did -so was Alonso-, but my main concern was at the exit. It was very dangerous from Hamilton to continue over the blue line alongside Vettel. Vettel had the position and Hamilton had no chance at all to pass him there. Remember that the pit lane has a speed limit. Hamilton could have easiy hurt a mechanic by either running into him or hitting some pit lane equipment and send it hurling away.

To me a penalty should have definitely being handed out.

[TT6]

There is no official rule that you should hold to the pit-entry lines, it's free for all. The lines are there for the viewers and drivers but they don't have a rule to them.

I'm no expert on racing rules, but the outcry of JJ Lehto was quite like "you can't do that". I think he has somekind of gut feeling over racing rules because of his experience. I was just wondering is someone capable of explaining me why the normal overtaking rules wouldn't apply here.

You have a clarification, but without a reference to any rule. So according to you it's no corner, but more like an open field.

Another argument provided here is "Vettel was never ahead of Hamilton" which obviously was not the case since first I see no one in front of Vettel, then I see Hamilton charging pass him on the left. (And likewise with Alonso vs Massa).

[billkaos]

I believe that Hamilton was wrong to enter the pits the way he did -so was Alonso

You may believe whatever you want, but the rules say otherwise. Indeed, the moves are completely legal.

[TT6]

.. but the rules say otherwise. Indeed, the moves are completely legal.

Still waiting for the rules that apply to the situation.

[Victor_RO]

I've said this in another thread and I'll repeat it, the official pit lane entry is about 100-150 m AFTER the left-hander. It might sound odd, but the piece of track where Hamilton and Alonso passed is considered normal racetrack.

[Kooper]

So what do I see here at the beginning?



I think I see Vettel entering the pit entry, then Hamilton passes him inside, off the track, cutting the last corner before the pitlane.

Shows the incident clearly - thanks.

Actually, it's a lot worse than I thought. Hamo goes all 4 wheels off track at the corner too:

http://i42.tinypic.com/nf1yiw.jpg

Alonso probably did the same?

Shows the incident clearly - thanks.

I believe that Hamilton was wrong to enter the pits the way he did -so was Alonso-, but my main concern was at the exit. It was very dangerous from Hamilton to continue over the blue line alongside Vettel. Vettel had the position and Hamilton had no chance at all to pass him there. Remember that the pit lane has a speed limit. Hamilton could have easiy hurt a mechanic by either running into him or hitting some pit lane equipment and send it hurling away.

To me a penalty should have definitely being handed out.

Maybe I'm stupid but Hamilton cutting the pit entrance like this should be a penalty. What are the white lines on the tarmac for? I haven't seen the Alonso incident... but anyways to me a driver shouldn't be able to drive outside like Lewis did w/o penalty.

And Hamilton failing to yield to Vettel leaving the pits was plain wrong. The FIA need to step in w/ clear rules on this because racing side-by-side in the pit lane is gonna see some innocent mechanic(s) hurt or killed if its not stopped now.

[MrAerodynamicist]

For what it's worth, here's the overshot of the line layout from Google earth. Basically, the pitlane tarmac is the same width as the main straight, but the white lines delimit the outermost car width.
http://maps.google.c...3...006866&z=18

[Youichi]

Another argument provided here is "Vettel was never ahead of Hamilton" which obviously was not the case since first I see no one in front of Vettel, then I see Hamilton charging pass him on the left. (And likewise with Alonso vs Massa).

You can't see from the onboard shots whether Hamilton was alongside or behind, from hamiltons camera you can't see Vettel, so Hami was ahead.

What we need for both incidents is an outside shot of when they leave the normal track and enter the sliproad.

[TT6]

Ok, still no rule quotes. I start with these:

International Sporting code Appendix L,
CHAPTER IV - CODE OF DRIVING CONDUCT ON CIRCUITS
2. Overtaking, car control and track limits

c) Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of
doubt:
- the white lines defining the track edges are considered to
be part of the track but the kerbs are not and
- a driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the
car remains in contact with the track.
Should a car leave the track for any reason, and without
prejudice to 2(d) below, the driver may rejoin. However, this
may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining
any advantage.

4. Entrance to the pit lane

a) The section of track leading to the pit lane shall be referred to
as the “pit entry”.

So prove me wrong by pointing me out a rule that says that lane before the pit entry is not considered as track - in contrary to what is stated above. Note: pit entry is a "section of a track" and "white lines define the track edges (being part of the track)".

[Aubwi]

I've noticed the FIA never seems to care about the white lines when entering the pits. They only give penalties for crossing the white line when exiting. I'm not sure why that is, but at least they're consistent about it. There was another pit stop in this race where Hamilton missed the normal pit entry completely and cut across all kinds of markings on the track.

[Henrytheeigth]

I've noticed the FIA never seems to care about the white lines when entering the pits. They only give penalties for crossing the white line when exiting. I'm not sure why that is, but at least they're consistent about it. There was another pit stop in this race where Hamilton missed the normal pit entry completely and cut across all kinds of markings on the track.

Didn't Alonso or someone get a fine for crossing a line at pit entry was it at Singapore? Or Valencia 2008?

[VicR]

In reality. Who cares? The stewards didn't react so it's history. Maybe it will influence future decisions, maybe not. In the end, the bottom line, the results stand. They are carved in stone. Nothing will budge it. Now we move on to Barcelona.

[TT6]

I've noticed the FIA never seems to care about the white lines when entering the pits. They only give penalties for crossing the white line when exiting. I'm not sure why that is...

That is quite a different line there and it has a different function.

First of all it's quite in the middle of the track and therefore it is not defining the track edges. Secondly the line after the pits is there to keep the slower cars coming from the pits off the racing line to make it safer to come back to the race.

In reality. Who cares? The stewards didn't react so it's history. Maybe it will influence future decisions, maybe not. In the end, the bottom line, the results stand. They are carved in stone. Nothing will budge it. Now we move on to Barcelona.

It's always intresting to know what the rules are and how they are implemented. It's beside the point here if these results stand or not.

Edited by TT6, 18 April 2010 - 17:03.

[Risil]

In reality. Who cares? The stewards didn't react so it's history. Maybe it will influence future decisions, maybe not. In the end, the bottom line, the results stand. They are carved in stone. Nothing will budge it. Now we move on to Barcelona.

Hehe, yes. We've learnt that Hamilton and Vettel like a bit of a fight on (and off) the race track, and that Fernando can be a bit ruthless, even with his team mates. You could say we knew all this already, but it's nice to see things conform to expectations sometimes.

[bourbon]

don't lie. it looks bad on yourself.

Lewis was very ggresive there, but i dont think he was being a dirty driver.
simply a better and more fighting driver.
good for him.
and good for fernando too.
going before massa was the right thing to do.
great race from both

I hope all the drivers, especially the new and slower ones, start driving like this. It should be very entertaining.

[GrzegorzChyla]

4. Entrance to the pit lane

4. Entrance to the pit lane
a) The section of track leading to the pit lane shall be referred to
as the “pit entry”.
b) During competition access to the pit lane is allowed only
through the pit entry.
c) Any driver intending to leave the track or to enter the pit lane
should make sure that it is safe to do so.
d) Except in cases of force majeure (accepted as such by the
Stewards of the Meeting), the crossing, in any direction, of the
line separating the pit entry and the track is prohibited.
e) Except in cases of force majeure (accepted as such by the
Stewards of the Meeting), any line painted on the track at the
pit exit for the purpose of separating cars leaving the pits from
those on the track must not be crossed by any part of a car
leaving the pits.

IMO 4 d) applies here - and it refers to pit entry!

[Ellios]

just love the attitude of Alonso and Hamilton - ruthless and decisive in this instance.

it's fair game imho - but you just know one race day there will be a tangle

[Ulysses777]

http://i42.tinypic.com/35bxzz5.gif

[PayasYouRace]

http://i42.tinypic.com/35bxzz5.gif

It's quite clear from that the line defines the edge of the pitlane. I think the tarmac is wider because it can be used for an alternative track layout, which continues straight on beyond the pitlane.

[jesee]

http://i42.tinypic.com/35bxzz5.gif

And here is Mr Alonso Nicely puting his team-mate onto the grass!

Edited by Gilles4Ever, 18 April 2010 - 19:21.

[billfenner1967]

There is no official rule that you should hold to the pit-entry lines, it's free for all. The lines are there for the viewers and drivers but they don't have a rule to them.

Lewis and Fernando are simply 2 smart guys and STOP using the word "cutting" here, your being ridiculous if you do.

I agree with what you've said ... but ... there's still an argument to be made that the pit entry should not be treated as the racing track because if, say, two cars should come together like Alonso/Massa or Hamilton/Vettel today in China, then they would completely block the pit entry and any car coming into the pits after them would either have to stop entirely or drive onto the grass or gravel to try and get around them, which is obviously not fair. So that would mean yet another safety car would have to come out.

So, while I loved seeing Alonso and Hamilton diving up the inside and making those moves, I can see how it's just a matter of time before there's a pit entry crash that then forces the FIA to rewrite the regulations and say that the entire pit entry is essentially a yellow flag zone where no overtaking is to be done and cars must slow down.

[angst]

Watching both incidents again... I can see why Hamilton would feel aggrieved...he was ahead of Vettel and Vettel, essentially, tried to take advantage of the outside line by blocking Hamilton out. Pretty unsporting from Vettel, imo. Alonso, on the other hand, was completely out of order.

What this highlights more than anything is the stupid positioning of the pit-lane entry at Shanghai.

[learningtobelost]

Watching both incidents again... I can see why Hamilton would feel aggrieved...he was ahead of Vettel and Vettel, essentially, tried to take advantage of the outside line by blocking Hamilton out. Pretty unsporting from Vettel, imo. Alonso, on the other hand, was completely out of order.

What this highlights more than anything is the stupid positioning of the pit-lane entry at Shanghai.

I couldn't agree more, on all points.

[MikeTekRacing]

.he was ahead of Vettel and Vettel, essentially, tried to take advantage of the outside line by blocking Hamilton out.

he ran wide out of the hairpin and tried to enter the pits together with vettel's car which was properly aligned.
wtfk was vettel supposed to do? lift and let hamilton come in front of him?
if it's unsporting, then how was the exit of the pits? why didn't hamilton lift there?

[MrAerodynamicist]

he ran wide out of the hairpin and tried to enter the pits together with vettel's car which was properly aligned.
wtfk was vettel supposed to do? lift and let hamilton come in front of him?
if it's unsporting, then how was the exit of the pits? why didn't hamilton lift there?

Actually they both did what they were supposed/allowed to do, which is why the stewards paid no attention. The design of the circuit made it impossible to for them to get within the white lines unless one of them lifted half way down the proceeding straight.

Edited by MrAerodynamicist, 18 April 2010 - 20:47.

[schuey100]

I agree with what you've said ... but ... there's still an argument to be made that the pit entry should not be treated as the racing track because if, say, two cars should come together like Alonso/Massa or Hamilton/Vettel today in China, then they would completely block the pit entry and any car coming into the pits after them would either have to stop entirely or drive onto the grass or gravel to try and get around them, which is obviously not fair.

I think there's a more serious point in so far as many pit entrances have structures that are not meant to be crashed into. If we start seeing drivers going full speed and racing into the pit entrances then I think the pit entrances will probably need to be redesigned for safety purposes. Unlike other parts of the track there simply aren't the run offs and safety features for drivers crashing because drivers aren't supposed to be racing in those areas.

I think Hamilton is one of the best drivers on the grid, one of the best of all time actually and his aggressions is commendable but in this situation he probably went too far, same as Alonso. Of course the difference with Alonso was that it wasn't against is own team mate....

[steveb872]

And here is Mr Alonso Nicely puting his team-mate onto the grass!

If you watch the Alonso / Massa pit entry notice the Force India and the Torro Rosso ahead who round the corner on the inside of the white line.

Edited by steveb872, 18 April 2010 - 21:02.

[Hairpin]

If you watch the Alonso / Massa pit entry notice the Force India ahead who rounds the corner on the inside of the white line.

Remember that the white line is, per definition, part of the track, so if he was not inside with all four wheels it is ok and I can honestly not tell from that pic. I am surprised though that this goes without mentioning because it is such a clear violation of the rules. If the bother to paint those lines they should have a meaning.

[bond]

I think there's a more serious point in so far as many pit entrances have structures that are not meant to be crashed into. If we start seeing drivers going full speed and racing into the pit entrances then I think the pit entrances will probably need to be redesigned for safety purposes. Unlike other parts of the track there simply aren't the run offs and safety features for drivers crashing because drivers aren't supposed to be racing in those areas.

I think Hamilton is one of the best drivers on the grid, one of the best of all time actually and his aggressions is commendable but in this situation he probably went too far, same as Alonso. Of course the difference with Alonso was that it wasn't against is own team mate....

They are allowed to race until the white line...
Maybe you want the FIA to put there some speed bumps...

[FerrariF1Fan]

Ok, still no rule quotes. I start with these:

International Sporting code Appendix L,
CHAPTER IV - CODE OF DRIVING CONDUCT ON CIRCUITS
2. Overtaking, car control and track limits



4. Entrance to the pit lane


So prove me wrong by pointing me out a rule that says that lane before the pit entry is not considered as track - in contrary to what is stated above. Note: pit entry is a "section of a track" and "white lines define the track edges (being part of the track)".

You are right, but you can't win this common sense fight against biased supporters of the involved drivers. They will twist the words, use strange semantics and totally disregard rules and logic to conclude that their favorite driver was entitled to break the rules.;)