40 replies to this topic

[Velocifer]

Would it be an idea to have lots of portable and very powerful air blowers that could get rid of dangerous debris on track from the track fence very quickly, ending the need for people to enter the track and disruptive safety car periods?

[werks prototype]

I like the idea. But where/how would they be placed and who would operate them? Automatic pop-up devices? Also, where would the debris end up, on the grass/track-side, run off area? Would there also be an amount of high velocity carbon fibre shards flying through the air?

Edited by werks prototype, 19 April 2010 - 23:51.

[Supersleeper]

Would it be an idea to have lots of portable and very powerful air blowers that could get rid of dangerous debris on track from the track fence very quickly, ending the need for people to enter the track and disruptive safety car periods?

Street sweepers - I've used them on main airport runways where a single stone is a major issue. Difficult to see why 3 or 4 couldn't be hired over a race weekend and stationed intermittently to assist with a quick and safe cleanup. Most importantly - the idea that people on the ground who have given their time for free to marshal these events and are not afforded some form of physical protection from cars by large vehicles is ridiculous - at a time the FIA trumpets safety they perhaps should do a course at looking under their own noses.

[Henrytheeigth]

the idea that people on the ground who have given their time for free to marshal these events and are not afforded some form of physical protection from cars by large vehicles is ridiculous - at a time the FIA trumpets safety they perhaps should do a course at looking under their own noses.

Yea especially since the last two deaths in F1 were Marshalls...

[plastik2k9]

There are times, like when there is shattered carbon fibre everywhere, that even the average garden leaf blower would be a massive help. Obviously we wouldn't want them running out there with such a thing all the time, like when there's a handful of pieces of debris, but sometimes the track is literally covered in carbon fibre shards and gravel When the safety car is deployed it can take several laps to clear with standard brooms.

[EthanM]

Carbon fiber shards can be lethal you know, if say a marshal isnt paying attention and blows them in the direction of another marshal. Ask anybody that has worked with composites how sharp those shards can be, just running your hand across can give you a really really deep and nasty cut.


Street sweepers are a better option but you 'd need many to cover the whole track cause they aren't exactly fast machines, which means cost, which the track has to pay.

[Velocifer]

What I am thinking of is a gun type thing that could be operated manually from behind the fence.

10-20 of these high concentrated blowers placed on small vehicles, positioned and powered so that the jet (with any shards) could not reach or hurt bystanders.

Mostly to instantly get rid of those big pieces that now require yellow flag/marshals or SC periods.

[Supersleeper]

10-20 of these high concentrated blowers placed on small vehicles, positioned and powered so that the jet (with any shards) could not reach or hurt bystanders.

If you blow it off track, it just ends up somewhere else. Better to pick it up and dump it somewhere else, rather than blow it off track, where it might very well be run over again.

Aside from the semantics - an excellent idea that guys running around with brooms is a concept that is outdated - to say the least.

[Kompressor]

guys running around with brooms is a concept that is outdated - to say the least.

That image doesn't exactly scream, 'the pinnacle of motor sport'.

I like this solution but the vehicle might be too slow. A leaf blower or a vacuum might be better than a broom.

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Edited by Kompressor, 20 April 2010 - 00:47.

[Supersleeper]

I like this solution but the vehicle might be too slow.

They're all road registrable and will do 100Km/h - I think people just see them in sweep mode and think that's about as fast as they go.

[Velocifer]

If you blow it off track, it just ends up somewhere else. Better to pick it up and dump it somewhere else, rather than blow it off track, where it might very well be run over again.

But if you run off track, chances are that your car becomes unsafe for any number of reasons anyway - a puncture from running over a shard there will measure no different than a loose wing mount etc, or maybe much less as the puncture will be noticed more quickly.

The main point here being that debris removed from speeding cars on track as fast as possible, is way better than delaying it and increasing this risk for the minimal risk of being run over when off track later.

Edited by Velocifer, 20 April 2010 - 00:59.

[demoing]

the problem with using air to blow the bits off the track (excluding the safety worries already addressed by others) is that you cannot guarantee to remove all the debris off the track especially when its wet. Its one thing to use them with Nascar where the cars are made from metal and completely different to F1 where the cars shatter into millions of pieces.
I could be wrong but i would expect that the blower is not used so much to remove debris but to dry the track.

[Jazza]

the problem with using air to blow the bits off the track (excluding the safety worries already addressed by others) is that you cannot guarantee to remove all the debris off the track especially when its wet. Its one thing to use them with Nascar where the cars are made from metal and completely different to F1 where the cars shatter into millions of pieces.
I could be wrong but i would expect that the blower is not used so much to remove debris but to dry the track.

They used them in CART. I'm sure that was mostly for debris.

[Supersleeper]

The main point here being that debris removed from speeding cars on track as fast as possible, is way better than delaying it and increasing this risk for the minimal risk of being run over when off track later.

I'm not going to argue semantics - I'd just say that your idea about cleaning up tracks safely and quickly was a great idea and it's well past time the FIA addressed the issue.

[demoing]

They used them in CART. I'm sure that was mostly for debris.

but as pointed out IF it is for debris the fact remains nascar and F1 debris are very very different as well as the distances between the race track and the general public/stewards being far less in F1.
How much small debris do you get from tintops crashing compared to an F1 car that explodes in a big crunch and how would both types of debris react to being blown off the track.
because the types of materials and the size of particles IMHO mean they are two very very different scenarios even if the tracks the same it may work for nascar but IMHO some form of sweeper is far more effective for F1. and lets not forget Nascar only takes place on dry tracks once you have a wet track CF shards will stick to the damp track. Perhaps they could develop rotating boom sweeper so if could clear say 1/2 the track in one pass.

[loki]

News flash gang, both CART and Indycar have been using jet blowers and sweepers for almost a couple of decades now. F1 is pretty good with the crane thing but the debris pickup they could use a bit of schooling. I hope no one is suggesting the CF or the marbles in those series are any different than in F1. It's all sharp CF scraps and wasted rubber. Blow it off the track and if you happen to drive off the track and pick some up well then you'd be well advised to stay on the track.

[Jazza]

but as pointed out IF it is for debris the fact remains nascar and F1 debris are very very different as well as the distances between the race track and the general public/stewards being far less in F1.
How much small debris do you get from tintops crashing compared to an F1 car that explodes in a big crunch and how would both types of debris react to being blown off the track.
because the types of materials and the size of particles IMHO mean they are two very very different scenarios even if the tracks the same it may work for nascar but IMHO some form of sweeper is far more effective for F1. and lets not forget Nascar only takes place on dry tracks once you have a wet track CF shards will stick to the damp track. Perhaps they could develop rotating boom sweeper so if could clear say 1/2 the track in one pass.

But I'm talking about CART . Yes NASCAR is different to F1, but CART in this situation would be no different at all. Both use(d) open wheeler Carbon fiber cars, both race(d) on non oval race tracks, and both race(d) in the wet. If they could use them for debris in CART 10 years ago they can use them in F1 today. Again, nothing to do with tintop NASCAR

Edited by Jazza, 20 April 2010 - 09:46.

[Archybald]

I love this idea or atleast some kind of update not just brooms.

Even if it gave me an image of a marshall using an air blower to blow a wheel off the track lol

[mtknot]

A leaf blower car which uses fans to generate an artificial ground effect to compensate for weight

[christoff]

I'm sure they used 'road sweepers' at Indy when Ralph backed it into the wall.

[gwk]

A leaf blower car which uses fans to generate an artificial ground effect to compensate for weight

Every race track that I've ever visited (WGI, VIR, Summit Point, Mid-Ohio - all in the US, admittedly) routinely use blowers to clean the track, for example in the morning before the day gets underway. There may be a problem with blowing things into the crowd at some venues, and maybe carbon fiber doesn't respond well, but it seems like an obvious thing to try.

[Villes Gilleneuve]

What I am thinking of is a gun type thing that could be operated manually from behind the fence.

10-20 of these high concentrated blowers placed on small vehicles, positioned and powered so that the jet (with any shards) could not reach or hurt bystanders.

Mostly to instantly get rid of those big pieces that now require yellow flag/marshals or SC periods.

laser gun ablator. zzzt.

[Velocifer]

That's the type we need. Some debris on track? Marshall on a scooter and laser gun whacks it away before 3 cars have passed. Problem solved.

[Henrytheeigth]

That's the type we need. Some debris on track? Marshall on a scooter and laser gun whacks it away before 3 cars have passed. Problem solved.

Ah! But then an SC would have to be deployed first!

[Talryyn]

Street sweepers - I've used them on main airport runways where a single stone is a major issue. Difficult to see why 3 or 4 couldn't be hired over a race weekend and stationed intermittently to assist with a quick and safe cleanup. Most importantly - the idea that people on the ground who have given their time for free to marshal these events and are not afforded some form of physical protection from cars by large vehicles is ridiculous - at a time the FIA trumpets safety they perhaps should do a course at looking under their own noses.

They run them between races, and Nascar/IRL has those portable jets. The jets could be a problem for the fans, blowing debris into the stands. So sweepers would be a better idea I think, maybe the FIA could get Mercedes to build some that are actually fast enough to get out to the corners in time! I have never driven a sweeper that went over 30, but I have seen some that will go highway speeds - but usually they do a poor job at actually cleaning. I say get the FIA to invest some of Bernie's money into sweeper technology, it would be another way the sport gives back to relevant roadcars..erm sweepers.

[Fortymark]

Funny I was thinking the same just a few days ago.
I think even with a powerfull garden blower like the Stihl BR 550
with a 65 cc engine you would blow away most debris.


If it´s wet you can use a high pressure cleaner.

I think the FIA/FOM/FOTA or whatever it´s called need to look into these things that
can minimize SC periods that destroys the races.

[Henrytheeigth]

The real solution to at least the clag, as Hobbs famously says lol, is to have hard enough tyres to last like 5 races. Then there should be none, or such little clag. So no refuel and no tyre change is the way to go, personally I love the clag, I love seeing the remnants of tyres that have been punished but too bad that doesn't make for great racing coz can't go off line for an attack as easily..

[chdphd]

I took this at Silverstone in 2005.



That's Lee McKenzie's Dad on the monitor

[Velocifer]

Ah! But then an SC would have to be deployed first!

I didn't mean to scooter on the track itself, I meant scooter around the perimeter path behind the fence.

Here are some potentially good debris marshals: http://www.textually...aliban_2_29.jpg

[Velocifer]

Still waiting for the first track organizer to implement this.

[BenettonB192]

When i went to the Champcar race on the Eurospeedway years ago they cleaned the track with some big ass jet engine blow truck. Ever since i wonder why they don't use such a thing to clean the tracks in F1.

[Clatter]

That image doesn't exactly scream, 'the pinnacle of motor sport'.

I like this solution but the vehicle might be too slow. A leaf blower or a vacuum might be better than a broom.

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Sometimes the simplest solutions can be the best ones.

[Clatter]

When i went to the Champcar race on the Eurospeedway years ago they cleaned the track with some big ass jet engine blow truck. Ever since i wonder why they don't use such a thing to clean the tracks in F1.

Was that to clean the track or to dry it?

[Clatter]

Street sweepers - I've used them on main airport runways where a single stone is a major issue. Difficult to see why 3 or 4 couldn't be hired over a race weekend and stationed intermittently to assist with a quick and safe cleanup. Most importantly - the idea that people on the ground who have given their time for free to marshal these events and are not afforded some form of physical protection from cars by large vehicles is ridiculous - at a time the FIA trumpets safety they perhaps should do a course at looking under their own noses.

They use them at Silverstone between races, but the problem I see with them is that they are very slow and would likely take longer to cover an area than the very simple men with brooms.

[BenettonB192]

Was that to clean the track or to dry it?

It was a dry day so i suppose it was to clean the track.

[Baddoer]

[Clatter]

When i went to the Champcar race on the Eurospeedway years ago they cleaned the track with some big ass jet engine blow truck. Ever since i wonder why they don't use such a thing to clean the tracks in F1.

Something like this?
http://www.turbinegroup.com/page1.html

I'm pretty sure it would have been a dryer rather than cleaner.

[Victor_RO]

It was a dry day so i suppose it was to clean the track.

It's used more to dry off ovals after rain or if a car has spilled a massive amount of oil/coolant.

[BenettonB192]

Something like this?
http://www.turbinegroup.com/page1.html

I'm pretty sure it would have been a dryer rather than cleaner.

Yea the turbine looked like that as far as i remember. The exhaust was more like in that picture tho:

[Henrytheeigth]

I didn't mean to scooter on the track itself, I meant scooter around the perimeter path behind the fence.

Here are some potentially good debris marshals: http://www.textually...aliban_2_29.jpg

I don't even remember posting in this thread haha. Yea good idea mate, the amount of rubber on track is ridiculous, I mean it looks great though, shows the tyre wear, but bad for having a one line of racing most of the times.

[nimbus111]

Would it be an idea to have lots of portable and very powerful air blowers that could get rid of dangerous debris on track from the track fence very quickly, ending the need for people to enter the track and disruptive safety car periods?

good point, ive always been baffled how they leave debris sit on the track all race. doesnt seem very safe though surprisingly blown tires seem rare especially this season. NASCAR has jet sweepers that seem pretty efficient and quick. wouldnt mind seeing these implemented more in the future.

Edited by nimbus111, 14 December 2011 - 15:43.