30 replies to this topic

[ViMaMo]

Designers are the unknown geniuses in F1. Should we not have a thread on like who goes where? And their comments? Our comments. Everyone talks about drivers affecting a team with their departure. RBR have benefitted hugely from Adrian Newey AND Geof Willis, Rob Marshall ,Peter Podromou (Head of aero, Mclaren 2002 to 2007). Renault are doing a fine job after the departure of their star driver Alonzo, thanks to a wonderful design team.

I have a list of designers, aero people, and engine gurus in excel format. I just dont know how to put it on the board.

Should we have a seperate thread for this? Yay/Nay?

[One]

Yes... Mike Gascoigne to Williams.

[pgj]

A dedicated designer thread is good.

[pgj]

Come home Adrian.

[Stormsky68]

Whatever happened to John Barnard?

Sorry I'm being lazy, I should google him and find out....

[undersquare]

Designers are the unknown geniuses in F1. Should we not have a thread on like who goes where? And their comments? Our comments. Everyone talks about drivers affecting a team with their departure. RBR have benefitted hugely from Adrian Newey AND Geof Willis, Rob Marshall ,Peter Podromou (Head of aero, Mclaren 2002 to 2007). Renault are doing a fine job after the departure of their star driver Alonzo, thanks to a wonderful design team.

I have a list of designers, aero people, and engine gurus in excel format. I just dont know how to put it on the board.

Should we have a seperate thread for this? Yay/Nay?

I'd like to see your list. Will it paste in with the Code option? (Not that Ive ever tried it myself)

[One]

Whatever happened to John Barnard?

Sorry I'm being lazy, I should google him and find out....

he has got his B3 to design/build ultra thin table, which I saw the last year. Now...?

Will not be surprised if he is still working on the same area.

[Owen]

The era of star designers may be over now.

[Risil]

Time and money, as Kenny Roberts would say. Building a quick car has always been about way more than a clever guy from the aerospace industry doing the drawings.

[Owen]

Time and money, as Kenny Roberts would say. Building a quick car has always been about way more than a clever guy from the aerospace industry doing the drawings.

The Brawn car, possibly one of the most developed (and competitive) F1 cars of recent times certainly had that luxury of both time and money spent on it (well initially anyway!). Shame they had to compromise on the engine fitting at the last minute.

[V8 Fireworks]

A dedicated designer thread is good.

The designers are usually hyped in F1!

Recall the hype for the guy who designed the ant-eater Jordan (not their best) and the twin-keel Arrows (Rinland?)

Also for the Minardi designer, who did the first Toyota which was just a simple platform for developments (Brunner)

The number crunching optimisation approach is popular, but even this did not take BMW or Toyota to the world championship... An optimised crap design is still a bit crap. There is obviously still huge value in having some-one who CAN design a suspension system on a napkin, identify the problems and fix the layout of a car in minutes etc etc etc (like a Tauranac - one of the greatest racing car designers of all time).

[pgj]

The designers are usually hyped in F1!

Recall the hype for the guy who designed the ant-eater Jordan (not their best) and the twin-keel Arrows (Rinland?)

Also for the Minardi designer, who did the first Toyota which was just a simple platform for developments (Brunner)

The number crunching optimisation approach is popular, but even this did not take BMW or Toyota to the world championship... An optimised crap design is still a bit crap. There is obviously still huge value in having some-one who CAN design a suspension system on a napkin, identify the problems and fix the layout of a car in minutes etc etc etc (like a Tauranac - one of the greatest racing car designers of all time).

That is true enough. But the thread does not have to be restricted to successful designers or designs. A failed concept from one designer can be an inspiration to another.

[Henrytheeigth]

The Brawn car, possibly one of the most developed (and competitive) F1 cars of recent times certainly had that luxury of both time and money spent on it (well initially anyway!). Shame they had to compromise on the engine fitting at the last minute.

They certainly got the best engine though! Hey I recently bought the BrawnGP and Kimi's MP4-20 die cast models, certainly wonderful machines to add to my collection, designed splendidly!

Eh Button's Brawn of course lol...

Edited by Henrytheeigth, 28 April 2010 - 12:32.

[One]

The era of star designers may be over now.

, which has been said some time ago already, when Newey depart to Red Bull.

As long as the car is running there is someone designing it, no mater how engineers resent their presence. Most who are not able to design but engineer are deadly envious about the designer's capability to integrate dream engineering and arithmetic's...


BTW Who was the Lotus man... Chapman... is he a designer, according to your definition?

[Owen]

, which has been said some time ago already, when Newey depart to Red Bull.

As long as the car is running there is someone designing it, no mater how engineers resent their presence. Most who are not able to design but engineer are deadly envious about the designer's capability to integrate dream engineering and arithmetic's...


BTW Who was the Lotus man... Chapman... is he a designer, according to your definition?

Don't know about Chapman. But the point is that 'teams' of people are involved in and contribute toward design.

[One]

no matter ho many guys are working on a car engineering there is a limited numbers of men who actually design the car. Recent trend is that no one knows the distinction between the designer and the engineer. Distinction between the engineer and the draftsman.

...

So now who is the designer, in your opinion? It is too obsolete to think about designer as profession?

[ViMaMo]

Here is the list. I have referd to forix autosport for this.

All Technical Directors and Chief Designers
---------------------------------------------------------
Adrian Newey
Alan Jenkins
Aldo Costa
Alex Hitzinger
André de Cortanze
Andrew Green
Andy le Fleming
Ben Butler
Bernard Dudot
Chris Murphy
Christoph Zimmermann
Dago Rohrer
David Pitchforth
Ed Wood
Eghbal Hamidy
Enrique Scalabroni
François Castaing
Frank Dernie
Gabriele Tredozi
Gary Anderson
Gary Savage
Gavin Fisher
Geoffrey Willis
George Ryton
Gérard Ducarouge
Giorgio Ascanelli
Gordon Coppuck
Günther Steiner
Gustav Brunner
Harvey Postlethwaite
Henri Durand
Ian Pocock
James Allison
James Key
Jean-Paul Gousset
John Barnard
John Gentry
John Litjens
John McQuillam
John Russell
Jörg Zander
Kevin Taylor
Laurent Mekies
Leo Ress
Mark Preston
Mark Smith
Mark Tatham
Martin Tolliday
Maurice Philippe
Mauro Forghieri
Mauro Gennari
Michel Beaujon
Michel Tétu
Mike Coughlan
Mike Gascoyne
Neil Oatley
Nick Wirth
Nikolas Tombazis
Paddy Lowe
Pascal Vasselon
Pat Fry
Pat Symonds
Patrick Head
Peter McCool
Peter Wright
Rob Marshall
Robert Bell
Robert Taylor
Rory Byrne
Ross Brawn
Sandro Parini
Sergio Rinland
Steve Nichols
Tim Densham
Tim Goss
Tim Holloway
Walter Riedl
Willy Rampf




All Aero Heads
-------------------------

Andrea Rocchetto
Antonia Terzi
Ben Agathangelou
Ben Wood
Darren Davies
Dino Toso
Dirk de Beer
Doug McKiernan
Eghbal Hamidy
Frank Dernie
Jason Somerville
Jean-Claude Migeot
John Iley
John Tomlinson
Loic Bigois
Marcel Hubert
Marco De Luca
Mariano Alperin
Mark Gillan
Mark Handford
Nick Alcock
Nicolas Tombazis
Nicolo Petrucci
Peter Prodromou
Rene Hilhorst
Seamus Mullarkey
Simon Lacey
Simon Phillips
Willem Toet

Edited by vivian, 30 April 2010 - 03:59.

[Ducks McTeeth]

I would love to see a Jean-Paul Gaultier designed F-1 car one day.

[demoing]

no matter ho many guys are working on a car engineering there is a limited numbers of men who actually design the car. Recent trend is that no one knows the distinction between the designer and the engineer. Distinction between the engineer and the draftsman.

...

So now who is the designer, in your opinion? It is too obsolete to think about designer as profession?

i dont think a designer is obsolete as a job description infact with today's faster moving R&D IMHO they are even more important in ensuring the design and engineering teams pull in the same direction.
After all will the engine department worry about what the suspension department are doing without someone pulling all the relevant information together and seeing the big picture?

[Paul Prost]

There is a difference between a designer and manager.

Often the technical director resembles a 'buyer'...or a 'research manager'. He looks at the available resources that his team has and allocates money (i.e. materials and manpower) in directions which he thinks (based on his experience and knowledge of race-car fundamentals) will give the best improvement in performance per dollar.

Someone like Bob Bell would figure in this category. I would surmise that he hasn't sat down in front of CATIA for a decade. But his technical background and experience means that he is a very capable leader and manager of a racing team.

A true designer such as Adrian Newey has a very hands-on role in the specific development of car development and performance. He overseas the dimensions and packaging of the car to fit his overall idea of what makes a 'good racing car' in terms of weight distribution, aerodynamic performance etc. From what I've heard Adrian still spends most of time in his drawing office or looking at tunnel/CFD data..as well as time at the track.

Someone like a Ross Brawn tends to blur the distinction a bit...between his managerial roles as technical director/principal...with his input into race strategy.

This distinction also applies to the various sub-groups within a racing team...i.e aerodynamics, vehicle dynamics, powertrain etc. Is your chief aerodynamicist someone who schemes barge board designs and has a very hands-on role in the aerodynamic development? Or is he a manager that ensures that his aero team leaders have all the resources they require...and that their test programs are well thought out and part of a cohesive development direction?

I think it's fairly safe to say that there are many hardworking F1 engineers in the world...but top-quality brain power is still a bit thin on the ground. Which is why people like the Neweys of the world (and all the little worker bees who we don't hear about) who have a fundamental grasp of the physics behind vehicle dynamics and aerodynamics will always be sought after..as are those with good leadership and management skills who still understand the technical fundamentals. These sorts of people will always be more valuable that insecure workaholic nerd-boffins with zero people skills promoted beyond their level of competency....

..but you could say that about any industry.

[pgj]

Don't want to nit-pick here but Sam Michael is Williams TD. Patrick is Engineering Director.

I don't want to turn this into a Williams thread, but it is relevant to what has already been posted. There has been some discussion as to how Williams TD - ED roles work. With Patrick always having the final say on things engineering at Williams in the past does Sam give Patrick projects to work on? Does Sam have to square everything with the owners SFW/PH/TW or does he answer to the TP? It does pose the question how much freedom does the TD have not just at Williams but in general?

[One]

i dont think a designer is obsolete as a job description infact with today's faster moving R&D IMHO they are even more important in ensuring the design and engineering teams pull in the same direction.
After all will the engine department worry about what the suspension department are doing without someone pulling all the relevant information together and seeing the big picture?

what you say.

[pgj]

i dont think a designer is obsolete as a job description infact with today's faster moving R&D IMHO they are even more important in ensuring the design and engineering teams pull in the same direction.
After all will the engine department worry about what the suspension department are doing without someone pulling all the relevant information together and seeing the big picture?

+1

I agree with @One.

Someone still has be responsible for the product from the design team. All of the area's of speciality must be managed and focussed into the car and its performance. A technological advancement in a gearbox or suspension may have specialists in that area whooping and dropping their jaws. It may not improve the performance of the car though. It may interact with another system on the car in an adverse way to reduce the overall performance of the car. Someone has to be big enough to say 'yes' or 'no' as to what goes onto/into the car.

[Bloggsworth]

The era of star designers may be over now.

Computers can add 0 and 1 very quickly and reliably, but they can't THINK. They have no insight, they are unable to draw inferences from implications - When a computer, without being pre-programmed to do so, can deduce the meaning of the sentence "She's no better than she should be", we will all be in trouble...

[ff1600]

Has Mike Gascoigne built a race winning car? He seems to have personal problems everywhere he goes.

[Mika Mika]

Has Mike Gascoigne built a race winning car? He seems to have personal problems everywhere he goes.

Yes the Jordan 199 & Renault R23.

[Muz Bee]

I agree with Owen that the days of the star designer are almost certainly gone. Teams of people working closely together at all stages to produce an integrated package is the name of the game in the 00s and 10s.

The list published had one glaring omission that I noticed, that is of course Gordon Murray - more tricks than just about anyone apart from Colin Chapman. Even in those early Lotus days there were a bunch of very clever guys working to interpret and put into effectiveness. Adrian Newey was also able to make a difference at Williams, McLaren and RedBull so he would be in my Hall of Fame of 3 designers.

But unless you had worked extensively in F1 technical over a few decades you would be unaware of the countless unsung heroes who contributed far more than we could imagine. I think even though the cars were comparatively simple, crude even, the 60s, 70s and 80s produced the exciting breakthroughs by small teams working in a much more open set of regulations. Today all the teams tend to rely on spying, copying, refining, and occasionally coming up with a small breakthrough like the wing stalling F duct.

[skinnyman]

Dino Toso

RIP

Dino Vittorio Marcellinus Toso (February 11, 1969 – August 13, 2008)
Toso was diagnosed with cancer in 2004. He continued to work whilst receiving treatment, but the illness was terminal. Two months after retiring, he died at the age of 39.

[ViMaMo]

I agree with Owen that the days of the star designer are almost certainly gone. Teams of people working closely together at all stages to produce an integrated package is the name of the game in the 00s and 10s.

The list published had one glaring omission that I noticed, that is of course Gordon Murray - more tricks than just about anyone apart from Colin Chapman. Even in those early Lotus days there were a bunch of very clever guys working to interpret and put into effectiveness. Adrian Newey was also able to make a difference at Williams, McLaren and RedBull so he would be in my Hall of Fame of 3 designers.

But unless you had worked extensively in F1 technical over a few decades you would be unaware of the countless unsung heroes who contributed far more than we could imagine. I think even though the cars were comparatively simple, crude even, the 60s, 70s and 80s produced the exciting breakthroughs by small teams working in a much more open set of regulations. Today all the teams tend to rely on spying, copying, refining, and occasionally coming up with a small breakthrough like the wing stalling F duct.

I wanted inputs from people here on whether we keep a list of active only, so i omitted certain names.

Regarding the latter part of your post.
The regulations are much stricter now ...... compounding that is FIA's unfair bans on designs.

-----------------------------------

Very good website tracking the designers:
Linky

Edited by vivian, 07 May 2010 - 04:58.

[Chomsky]

[V8 Fireworks]

Regarding the latter part of your post.
The regulations are much stricter now ...... compounding that is FIA's unfair bans on designs.

There is still the zany Mercedes airbox and outlandish f-duct, so plently of design changes still appear on F1 cars... perhaps without the impact of turbos, tube-frames, ground effects or carbon tubs.

You would imagine that most of the cars will have a Mercedes-style airbox for the next season... a major design change in the styling of a n/a f1 car.