29 replies to this topic

[Barry Boor]

In my quest to collect as many 43rd scale models as I can from the 1966 Le Mans 24 hour race, I have hit a brick wall when it comes to the works Ferraris! This is quite a surprise as you would think those cars would be popular ones to model. They HAVE been modelled by numerous kit manufacturers but I have been unable to find any built models.

The obvious solution is one I have employed before - several times - buy something similar and convert it. There are plenty of 1966 330P models out there but it is very hard to see how much variation there was in the bodywork of the cars that ran, say, at Spa with those at Le Mans.

Are there any Ferraristi out there who can give me chapter and verse on the variations or (hopefully) not?

I hope this thread is acceptable in the main forum as it is not actually about models but rather, the real cars. (Pretty please, Twinny!!!)

[proviz]

Comparing the bodywork used on just one car (0848, nr. 1 in Spa, 20 in Le Mans) I cannot see any difference apart from the little rear quarter spoilers that were used in Le Mans but not Spa.

[arttidesco]

Try this link not sure if they are still available but the pics might help with some of the detail your looking for :- 1/43rd Ferrari P330 P3 #27 Le Mans 1966 or http://www.alpimodel.../rdl/rl158.html if the link does not work :-)

Have fun :-)

Best

[Jager]

As indicated above, the #20, #21 and #27 Ferrari 330 P3's have been modelled by Redline.

One thing I noticed was that the #27 car is modelled with Goodyear tyres, the same as the picture of the car below in the pits :



However I have the model of the #21 car, which has two interesting features. One is that it has Firestone tyres, instead of the Goodyear tyres that are on the #27 car. The second is that it carries a Dunlop logo o.



Would Ferrari really have run two different sets of tyres on the two cars (Goodyear on the #27 car and Firestone on the #21 car). I would have expected all the 3 cars to have run on a common set of tyres, unless the #27 car being a NART entry ran different tyres to appease their American sponsors (though if it did wouldn't it have been the NART car that would have run with the Firestone tyres) ?

Similarly, why would they have had a Dunlop logo on a Firestone shod car. I'm guessing the model manufacturer got it wrong, although the picture below gives a hint that there was a yellow logo positioned where the model maker has positioned the Dunlop logo (but without the Ferrari shield). But was it actually the Dunlop logo - unfortunately I don't have any clear shots of the side of the #21 car ?

[Macca]

There don't seem to be many pictures of the 1966LM, compared to Monza ans Spa, but here are 3 small b/w photos:
http://www.gettyimag...detail/88812249

Paul M

edit: remember the #27 was entered by NART rather than SEFAC, so maybe was on different tyres to #20 and 21.

Edited by Macca, 04 May 2010 - 14:46.

[Macca]

p.m. sent


Paul M

[Duc-Man]

I found an okayish photo of #20 in a book. That car did have the Ferrari 'shield' on the side just like the model shows it and a possibly yellow dot behind it.
On the next page and on the backcover are photos of two P4s at LM '67 (#21 & #24) and they have also a yellow dot at the side of the car.

Here's a shot of #21:


It has no Ferrari shield but a yellow dot...?

Could it be that this yellow dot was an indicator for the class the car was running in?

[D-Type]

I found an okayish photo of #20 in a book. That car did have the Ferrari 'shield' on the side just like the model shows it and a possibly yellow dot behind it.
On the next page and on the backcover are photos of two P4s at LM '67 (#21 & #24) and they have also a yellow dot at the side of the car.

Here's a shot of #21:


It has no Ferrari shield but a yellow dot...?

Could it be that this yellow dot was an indicator for the class the car was running in?

At one time they used different coloured dots to distinguish the different body materials - presumably for the firemen. Was that the case in 1966?

[Barry Boor]

Thanks for all the help and suggestions, gents.

How about this one then.... how much difference was there between the 300Ps in 1966 and the 330Ps in 1967?

[jj2728]

This is interesting. I've seen 2 b&w photos, side views, of the nos. 20 and 21 cars. The 20 has both the Ferrari emblem and the Dunlop logo with a small dot, I'd say the dot is yellow, that obscures the D but does not completely cover the logo. The 21 has the same thing, but no Ferrari emblem. Other than this, the REDLINE Ferraris are very nice indeed.

[David Birchall]

Hi Barry, have you tried contacting Wilkinsons Automobilia in Vancouver?
A local enthusiast and rabid Ferrari model collector named Jerry Benzon died fairly recently and Wilkinsons are selling off his collection. You can contact the owner at ted@eautomobilia.com
As an aside Jerry Benzon owned one of the Lola GTs here in Vancouver for many years.

[arttidesco]

Just found a pic of a model of the #21 330 that came second at Le Mans in '67 with a yellow dot ! :-) More of the same 330 Model :-)

Edited by arttidesco, 04 May 2010 - 23:17.

[Lee200]

At one time they used different coloured dots to distinguish the different body materials - presumably for the firemen. Was that the case in 1966?

Don't know about 1966. but you're right that in 1967 the fire marshals used colored disks to identify the body panel material. Yellow was aluminum while red was fiberglass I believe.

Lee

[Jager]

Related to Barry's questions about the differences between the 1966 and 1967 cars, what is small silver coloured object located on the rear of the sill, just in front of the rear wheels. These appeared on the 1966 cars, but not the 1967 cars ?

Apart from the above, the main difference I can find is that the 1967 cars had the wing mirrors faired into the bodywork. Aside from that, the #21 Ferrari in 1967 didn't appear to have the front winglets that appeared on the 1966 cars. However the #20 and #24 cars still had them. The 1967 car also ran on Firestone Tyres which is maybe where the confusion on the 1966 tyres came from.

[proviz]

Thanks for all the help and suggestions, gents.

How about this one then.... how much difference was there between the 300Ps in 1966 and the 330Ps in 1967?

Hope I understand your question correctly... Although Ferrari's 1966 P3 and 1967 P4 looked fairly similar, the panels were, in fact, quite different. Easiest reference point is headlight openings, which in P3 were larger. And then there was the 1967 412P, which in a frontal 3/4 view looked virtually identical to P4, but wasn't...

[AMICALEMANS]

Beware, juste because the Dunlop Logo was forbiden at Le Mans (and in Europe) in 1966.... in fact, logo on the car was the logo BUT without the D.... you can fin also the logo BP on the Ford France GT40 but without the two letters....

[mfd]

The obvious solution is one I have employed before - several times - buy something similar and convert it. There are plenty of 1966 330P models out there but it is very hard to see how much variation there was in the bodywork of the cars that ran, say, at Spa with those at Le Mans.

Die-cast variations @ http://www.racingmod...page-4-40-c.asp & http://diecastsports...ferrari_p3.html

[Duc-Man]

Beware, juste because the Dunlop Logo was forbiden at Le Mans (and in Europe) in 1966.... in fact, logo on the car was the logo BUT without the D.... you can fin also the logo BP on the Ford France GT40 but without the two letters....

If a company logo was forbidden...wouldn't it be easier to remove a sticker from the car or better not to put a sticker on in the first place. Also: why should Dunlop sponsor a car that runs on tires made by the competition? Why should the logo of the english tire company Dunlop be banned in europe or at LeMans where there is a Dunlop-bridge?

Sorry to say this: your post is friggin' nonsense to me unless you have photos to proof your statement!

[Macca]

In the interests of solving this question, here is a detail of the two berlinetta P3s, showing that one had the Dunlop logo and no Cavallino, and one had both:



the NART spyder had the cavallino only)

Paul M

[AMICALEMANS]

If a company logo was forbidden...wouldn't it be easier to remove a sticker from the car or better not to put a sticker on in the first place. Also: why should Dunlop sponsor a car that runs on tires made by the competition? Why should the logo of the english tire company Dunlop be banned in europe or at LeMans where there is a Dunlop-bridge?

Sorry to say this: your post is friggin' nonsense to me unless you have photos to proof your statement!

ok ! so back to school. Before January 1968, CSI has banned all advertisement in Europe, so some brand put stickers on car BUT without the brand....they just put the logo but WITHOUT the brand... just look at some pice of Le Mans in 66 or 67.... you will have the cat of Marchal, or the logo of BP (without letters), the Firestone logo without Firestone, the tiger from Esso but without Esso....

The non-sense is a fact ! smile.gif

There is only one unexplained exception ! i am sure that you will find it...it was at Le Mans in 1967 on a Ferrari, but not a P3. The car was white.... you will find it, i am sure... this car was outlaw under CSI rules...

[Arjan de Roos]

........but I have been unable to find any built models.

Have you checked Brumm Barry? They did the #27, and also the #21 for ABC (of which I still have a stock...).

Quite dangerous to exactly state livery as raced, as the P3/P4 pictures in many books feature versions as raced, as practiced, as presented as well as version from the testing days..

[Barry Boor]

What is ABC, Arjan? And if you have stock and they are 43rd scale, please P.M. me some details or maybe better e-mail - brucebook48@tiscali.co.uk

[Duc-Man]

ok ! so back to school. Before January 1968, CSI has banned all advertisement in Europe, so some brand put stickers on car BUT without the brand....they just put the logo but WITHOUT the brand... just look at some pice of Le Mans in 66 or 67.... you will have the cat of Marchal, or the logo of BP (without letters), the Firestone logo without Firestone, the tiger from Esso but without Esso....

The non-sense is a fact ! smile.gif

There is only one unexplained exception ! i am sure that you will find it...it was at Le Mans in 1967 on a Ferrari, but not a P3. The car was white.... you will find it, i am sure... this car was outlaw under CSI rules...

;)

I didn't know that and can accept that.
That still leaves us with the question why a car that ran on Goodyear or Firestone rubber was sponsored by Dunlop?
Doesn't make a lot of sense for me...

[Barry Boor]

I now have the two cars from Arjan. Both need some work but they are a very sensible alternative to £100 plus Redline models.

One question - were the seats really RED?

[mfd]

I now have the two cars from Arjan. Both need some work but they are a very sensible alternative to £100 plus Redline models.
One question - were the seats really RED?

Do them brick red Barry !

[Twin Window]

One question - were the seats really RED?

I'm sure Mike is correct re 'brick red'; the F1 cars had red seats as 'recently' as 1970, IIRC...

[arttidesco]

I always thought works Ferrari racing drivers sat on black leather seats but apparently not hope these pic help sorry none of them are mine :-

http://pictures.tops...-ferrari-3w.jpg

Above a P4 Spyder ...

http://www.forum-aut...t379179-420.htm

Scroll down this page above you'll find red seats in in 512S and a P3/4

http://www.super-fon...ferrari-330.htm

And there are half a dozen 330 pix showing red seats above here, have fun modelling your 330 P 3/4, don't forget to post pics when you have finished :-)

[Barry Boor]

Thank you gentlemen. Red it is then.

[SWB]

Yes the seats were red leather Barry, more or less body colour.

Of the differences in the 330P cars in '66 (obvious mirrors and open/closed tops etc aside) the #21 NART car had noticably larger and squarer mustache front spoilers compared to #20 and #27.

The Dunlop logo is strange where it appears, in the Pascal 'Ferrari at Le Mans' book there also seems to be a 206 Dino with one in '66. I just wonder if its not a cute way to kill two birds with one stone and Dunlop 'kindly' supplied the required yellow circle to meet the fire regulations, particularly as it always appears in the same place ahead of the cockpit.

Steve

[Steve Sobieralski]

The P3 seats were red in the middle, but the outer parts, including the tunnel cover between the seats, were black. At least this was what I found for the '66 Spa winner, which I researched a few years ago for modeling purposes. In the P4s the entire seat and tunnel cover were red. I also seem to remember that in '66 Ferrari started the season with the P3s on Dunlops and then, at some point, switched to Firestones. Perhaps carrying the logo later into the season was some sort of compensation to Dunlop for a broken agreement?

As far as cars on the same team using different tires, in '67 most of the Ford MkIIs ran on Goodyears, but at least one car-Andretti's-ran on Firestones due to his contractural obligations. I believe that the winning McLaren/Amon car started the race on Firestones for the same reason, but switched to Goodyears when it started to rain.

Steve Sobieralski