158 replies to this topic

[Hotwheels]

FIA has given Ferrari the go ahead to change the engine mid season . Ths is due to an inherent flaw in the design - should this be allowed ? Why restict it to Ferrari ? Jean Todt has finally shown his true colors ....

FIA allows Ferrari engine changes

[alfa1]

FIA has given Ferrari the go ahead to change the engine mid season . Ths is due to an inherent flaw in the design - should this be allowed ? Why restict it to Ferrari ? Jean Todt has finally shown his true colors ....

You're being sensationalistically paranoid. Frankly, probably just a troll looking for attention.
Engine modifications to fix reliability issues are allowed for ANY team, and have been since the beginning of the current engine 'freeze' period.

[kaivo]

MH.
2008 renault engine upgrade
2010 renault engine upgrade

[Timstr11]

FIA has given Ferrari the go ahead to change the engine mid season . Ths is due to an inherent flaw in the design - should this be allowed ? Why restict it to Ferrari ? Jean Todt has finally shown his true colors ....

FIA allows Ferrari engine changes

So the FIA should've let the engines go kaboom? Is that your alternative?
We've all seen their engines pop. What do you suggest they shoud've done instead?

Edited by Gilles4Ever, 05 May 2010 - 06:12.

[MaxisOne]

Im ok with it .. .As long as they dont get not even 1/4 HP or Fuel efficiency improvement out of it.

But the question is ... In this case are they restricted to fixing the problem only without any other benefit ?? or are they allowed to slip a prancing horse or 10 in the "reliability" fix ?

[HP]

Since 2 months is such a long time for selective memories here a link about Renault being able to change engine

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/82246

[rookie]

MH.
2008 renault engine upgrade
2010 renault engine upgrade

Plus further to that some 2010 requests denied becasue they were performance enhancing not for reliablity

- extract from autosport article March 19th

However, Renault has been told that it can make a number of changes to its engine for cost and reliability reasons - with all its requests in this area being approved by the FIA.

It is understood that further changes that were requested, which would have helped improve Renault's fuel consumption, were rejected because these were purely for performance reasons - and not on the 'fair' basis of the other changes that are open to all car makers

Edit - too slow. HP beat me to it.

Edited by rookie, 05 May 2010 - 05:36.

[Captain Tightpants]

But the question is ... In this case are they restricted to fixing the problem only without any other benefit ?? or are they allowed to slip a prancing horse or 10 in the "reliability" fix ?

Ferrari would have to subit a detailed plan outlining what went wrong and how they intend to fix it. This will be reviewed by someone in the FIA who is knowledgeable in these matters - Charlie Whiting, most likely - and once approved, the modified engine would no doubt be inspected at the next race. If Ferrari even try and slip something extra in, it will be found. Plus, they won't want to piss off the new boss. Jean Todt might have been a Ferrari man, but his realtionship with them was said to have ended badly.

[postajegenye]

This whole engine freeze rule is just ridiculous. I guess ALL the teams upgrade their engines ever since; or why was Mercedes so much faster last year? Why is Ferrari suddenly unreliable? etc...

FIA cannot really control this, teams will always find ways to so some tricks. I know it's important to keep down the costs, but they should find another solution because this engine freeze is not really working.

Renault was allowed to make changes both last year and this year, now it's Ferrari's time... does this mean that a team should ask for upgrades and they'll get it? Then what's the point of the engine freeze?

[peroa]

So the FIA should've let the engines go kaboom? Is that your alternative?
We've all seen their engines pop. What do you suggest they shoud've done instead?

They could revert to last years spec? No? After all it was very reliable in 2009.
Oh wait!
No, it wasn't, they made some 100 "reliability" updates during the winter ...

[FigJam]

This whole engine freeze rule is just ridiculous.

Nothing more needs to be said.

[klyster]

I don't see a problem with it, if it is just about sorting an inherent fault. But a performance gain would be a bit on the nose.
Cars crapping out unnecessarily, isn't my idea of bettering Formula One.
I suppose the improvement will also apply to the engines STR and Sauber receive too? This can be only positive.

I would find it objectionable if others were not allowed to do the same though but seeing as Renault have had a few tweaks, I can't see this happening.

[barteks]

http://forums.autosp...w...t=0&start=0

Looking forward to see Tifosi90 comment

[Mika Mika]

I don't think its an issue - remember all the teams have to see and approve the engine changes too...

[pUs]

I thought Ferrari told us all they were on top of all these problems? Nothing to worry about anymore?

[BinaryDad]

I'm not happy with this. Ferrari messed up with their engine for this year, and as such, should be forced to stick with the problem or work around it.

[pgj]

I don't think its an issue - remember all the teams have to see and approve the engine changes too...

+1

I was going to make this point. Not only does every team have to approve the changes, they get to read the detail of what is being done. They can then build up a dossier of development for each engine on the grid.

This is a non-issue. It is an attempt to get an excited thread going designed for Ferrari haters.

[packapoo]

I thought Ferrari told us all they were on top of all these problems? Nothing to worry about anymore?

Glad to see the Ferrari bias is continuing under Todt's leadership. (Must be a connection there somewhere).

But wait.
Renault had a break on engines too.

Gotta be Ferdy's influence.

[klyster]

I'm not happy with this. Ferrari messed up with their engine for this year, and as such, should be forced to stick with the problem or work around it.

They aren't the only team affected though.
Surely Sauber and STR deserve a decent race finishing engine too?

[harrows]

If dry, the next race will be a Ferrari 1-2. 'Member where you heard it

[Clatter]

Since 2 months is such a long time for selective memories here a link about Renault being able to change engine

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/82246

More a case of selective reporting as the changes Renault made were before the season opener, and all manufacturers did updates during the close season.

http://f1.madeinmoto...talks-2193.html

[packapoo]

They aren't the only team affected though.
Surely Sauber and STR deserve a decent race finishing engine too?

Of course they do.....

Are they going to get it.
In any event......If you get my drift?

[Clatter]

I don't see a problem with it, if it is just about sorting an inherent fault. But a performance gain would be a bit on the nose.
Cars crapping out unnecessarily, isn't my idea of bettering Formula One.
I suppose the improvement will also apply to the engines STR and Sauber receive too? This can be only positive.

I would find it objectionable if others were not allowed to do the same though but seeing as Renault have had a few tweaks, I can't see this happening.

Is it an inherent fault or something they introduced themselves with the updates they made pre-season? If it was an inherent fault then it would have been present in previous seasons.

[Clatter]

They aren't the only team affected though.
Surely Sauber and STR deserve a decent race finishing engine too?

Of course they do, but just like Ferrari they could revert to the previously reliable version before the 100+ updates.

[Sophie]

Isnt the problem to do with airflow and the angle of the engine. So that should not affect other teams i assume?

[Gilles4Ever]

Surely if there was anything underhanded this would have been done secretly without any announcement? it's not like anyone other that the FIA engine inspectors and the engine manufacturers would know about the innards of a specific engine.

[Clatter]

Isnt the problem to do with airflow and the angle of the engine. So that should not affect other teams i assume?

I've only seen rumours regarding the issue, not an official reason.

[Clatter]

As the updates can only be applied to new engines it will be interesting to see if all the Ferrari powered teams start with new engines this weekend.

[cska]

maFIA

[H0R]

So what. They aren't the first and won't be the last. Still one has to ask why there was an engine homologation if the teams don't have to stick with it?

[zergutmikael]

I smell cheating. Ferrari had already made reliability upgrades in the winter and what? Again upgrades? But why? They did reliability upgrades and in reverse their engine become less reliable. Do you really believe it was only and purely reliability upgrade? BS.

[Clatter]

Surely if there was anything underhanded this would have been done secretly without any announcement? it's not like anyone other that the FIA engine inspectors and the engine manufacturers would know about the innards of a specific engine.

It's not a case of being underhand or breaking any rules, it's more to do with the engine freeze farce. Last seasons engines were bulletproof, yet all the manufacturers made shed loads of updates under the guise of reliability. Either there is an engine freeze or there isn't, this half way house just shows what a poor rule it is.

[primer]

This whole engine freeze rule is just ridiculous.

F1's become a joke, teams will spend as much money as they can raise, always. Let them develop engines instead of this stupid 'equalized engine' crap.

[Rob]

These engines were OK last season weren't they?

[learningtobelost]

Ferrari had a serious flaw in their engine design, they have been alowed to fix it, end of story. There's nothing underhand going on. The truth of the matter is that engine homologation (or the farce that they are calling homologation) just isn't really working out.

[Mika Mika]

Seriously it's a non issue...

ALL the other teams HAVE to be aware of the changes - and approve them - they would say no if there was an power advantage.

[Diablobb81]

This whole engine freeze rule is just ridiculous.

+1

[Tenmantaylor]

Im as sceptical as anyone about FIA Ferrari favouritism of the past but I want to see the top teams battle it out to the end of the season regardless of the engine change rule.

[klyster]

Is it an inherent fault or something they introduced themselves with the updates they made pre-season? If it was an inherent fault then it would have been present in previous seasons.

Good point, and I don't know to be honest, and judging by this years results, Sauber are the team suffering the most.

We've had 3 Ferrari's let go, one Mercedes and one Cosworth.

I think they deserve a shot at trying sort it out.

The "inherent" part came from the article, we wouldn't really have any idea if it really is inherent or self induced but kinda the same in some ways anyway.
Maybe the design of this years chassis has an influence on the engine and can push some areas to heat beyond their tolerance or something similar?
I really don't know, but I'm in the school of thought that if there is an issue, it should be sorted rather than watching a time bomb rolling around the track with no idea where it will dump a load of oil.

[ExFlagMan]

Interesting thought - will the changes only be allowed to engines that has not so far been used or will they be allowed to retro-fit the changes to part used engines?

[Clatter]

Interesting thought - will the changes only be allowed to engines that has not so far been used or will they be allowed to retro-fit the changes to part used engines?

Only to unused engines.

[Clatter]

Good point, and I don't know to be honest, and judging by this years results, Sauber are the team suffering the most.

We've had 3 Ferrari's let go, one Mercedes and one Cosworth.

I think they deserve a shot at trying sort it out.

The "inherent" part came from the article, we wouldn't really have any idea if it really is inherent or self induced but kinda the same in some ways anyway.
Maybe the design of this years chassis has an influence on the engine and can push some areas to heat beyond their tolerance or something similar?
I really don't know, but I'm in the school of thought that if there is an issue, it should be sorted rather than watching a time bomb rolling around the track with no idea where it will dump a load of oil.

I understand where your coming from. I'm just fed up with the rule and think there should be some consequence for a team screwing what was a reliable engine.

[klyster]

^^

Yeah fair enough man, it would have been ideal if there was no issue.

Edited by klyster, 05 May 2010 - 08:29.

[Rob]

I understand where your coming from. I'm just fed up with the rule and think there should be some consequence for a team screwing what was a reliable engine.

It's ridiculous isn't it? A team makes "reliability modifications" and ruins the reliability.

[Pingguest]

There's something I don't understand. Since the end of the 2006 season he engines have been homologated. So far, Ferrari didn't have any reliability issues regarding their engines. How is it possible, that Ferrari now have a "intrinsic problem with the design of the engine"?

[pgj]

I smell cheating. Ferrari had already made reliability upgrades in the winter and what? Again upgrades? But why? They did reliability upgrades and in reverse their engine become less reliable. Do you really believe it was only and purely reliability upgrade? BS.

If it is done within the rules then it is not cheating. Two or three engines letting go should be a bit of a clue that there really is something that needs to be changed inside the engine.

If I was directly involved in F1 I would want to beat everyone at the top of their game not because a rival's engine let go.

[zergutmikael]

I understand where your coming from. I'm just fed up with the rule and think there should be some consequence for a team screwing what was a reliable engine.

What's wrong with rule? Engine development and units costs teams ~100 millions bucks per year. And suddenly we see moaners because one of the team wants to do something smart, failed and need with a high possibility the very same engine from last season.

[zergutmikael]

If it is done within the rules then it is not cheating. Two or three engines letting go should be a bit of a clue that there really is something that needs to be changed inside the engine.

If I was directly involved in F1 I would want to beat everyone at the top of their game not because a rival's engine let go.

Yea, the same chassis, engine, aeropackage for all. Even further - when rain come down - teams need to use the same tyres. Etc.

Team made reliability upgrade. How it could happen that's this upgrade does the opposite - made engines unreliable? Could you explain this thing for me? Ferrari knows this engine like everybody knows their five fingers. How on Earth they could made something wrong with it?

[MichaelPM]

Yea, the same chassis, engine, aeropackage for all. Even further - when rain come down - teams need to use the same tyres. Etc.

Team made reliability upgrade. How it could happen that's this upgrade does the opposite - made engines unreliable? Could you explain this thing for me? Ferrari knows this engine like everybody knows their five fingers. How on Earth they could made something wrong with it?

Do we have to assume engineers are infallible to make this point work?

[zergutmikael]

Btw how about reliability upgrades which also improved fuel consumption? In parallel?