49 replies to this topic

[TURU]

Williams wants to have Renault engines in 2011 (despite having a valid deal with Cosworth for another 2 seasons).
Epsilon Euskadi, the team that most probably will be on the grid in 2011, also wants Renault engines.
There are even some rumours saying that also Lotus, Virgin and HRT want to have Renault engines, which in my opinion is unlikely to happen ... but still, it brings Cosworth engine's quality into question.

However, my question is - Are the Cossies really that bad and if so, are they going to be thrown away from F1 again (and this time rather forever) ??

[Ross Stonefeld]

Where is this from?

And it is that the Cosworth is bad, because it seems like everyone wants to go to Renault. Which seems to me that there's a huge positive in the Renault engine (weight? fuel efficiency? cooling?) that makes it the engine to have. Rather than that the Cosworth is the worst engine or something.

[TURU]

http://renault-f1.fr...ste-de-Red-Bull

[FPV GTHO]

That article suggests its only Williams and Epsilon seeking the Renaults, and the 3 new teams looking at them if Cosworth cant compete anymore.

[GhostR]

That article suggests its only Williams and Epsilon seeking the Renaults, and the 3 new teams looking at them if Cosworth cant compete anymore.

Indeed, the way I interpreted the Google translation would suggest the original source article is probably pure speculation. IIRC it was well known that Epsilon Euskadi were intending to run Renault engines if they were picked for 2010. It was definitely well known Williams were interested, and it doesn't surprise me that they might want to switch for 2011.

As for the other teams, it reads as though there's some speculation that Cosworth might quit and that if that happens, then Lotus et al. would be most likely to look at picking up Renault's as well.

Not seeing any actual substance to all the speculation in the article, so will take it with a large helping of salt for the time being.

Edited by GhostR, 06 May 2010 - 06:39.

[Lennat]

Trulli implied in an interview that the Cosworth wasn't completely up to par. He said that it wasn't the main reason for Lotus being slow, but that the Cosworth/Xtrac packade might be like 10% of the problem. So that could mean half a second a lap, but I don't know if Williams might have a better gearbox perhaps... But still, it could very likely add a few tenths to the lap time of the Williams if what he said was true.

Quote: "The package with Cosworth engine and Xtrac gearbox has little influence over the lack of performance, I think no more than 10%, so the problems are elsewhere. The thing Lotus has lacked is time, the main culprit for our difficulties."

I don't get why Williams went with Cosworth in the first place.

[Captain Tightpants]

It's impossible to judge, really. Virgin, Lotus and Hispania are all four seconds per lap off the pace. Williams' poor performance may be because the engine is down on power, but it might also be an ordinary chassis. After all, they've been fluctuatng between the upper and lower midield since 2005.

[loki]

The new team's chassis are so far off the pace they can't tell if it's the lumps or not.

[Lennat]

The new team's chassis are so far off the pace they can't tell if it's the lumps or not.

Well, I certainly can't, but i found Trullis comment interesting, the teams would likely have a pretty good idea of how the engine compared.

[FigJam]

Well...Williams Renault has a nice ring to it...where have I heard that before?

[undersquare]

I don't get why Williams went with Cosworth in the first place.

They're pretty cheap aren't they? Also Max and Bernie were very keen to get Cossies in, a sweetener for an established team to lead the way wouldn't surprise me at all.

[BenettonB192]

It would be awesome to have the combination of Williams and Renault back again.

[ForMules]

They're pretty cheap aren't they? Also Max and Bernie were very keen to get Cossies in, a sweetener for an established team to lead the way wouldn't surprise me at all.

cheap F1 of Bernie, as for Avon tires, Bernie wants cheap F1 and makes money, only!

Cost worth are always equal to Bernie Profits! hey!

[pingu666]

why would they want renault engine when red bull dont?

[Seanspeed]

why would they want renault engine when red bull dont?

Because its better than what they've got now, obviously.

And small teams dont always have the luxury of picking the best engines. I'm sure they'd love a Mercedes powerplant, too, but its probably not a realistic option for them for whatever reason.

Edited by Seanspeed, 06 May 2010 - 10:08.

[pgj]

How credible is this story?

[magicon]

Because its better than what they've got now, obviously.

And small teams dont always have the luxury of picking the best engines. I'm sure they'd love a Mercedes powerplant, too, but its probably not a realistic option for them for whatever reason.

They have a better chance of getting mercs than red bull i'd guess.

[RoutariEnjinu]

How credible is this story?

I'd say incredible... but it depends on whether it's true or not first.

[Slowinfastout]

So, I take it the FIA will be very keen to undermine their cherished Cosworth and overlook their own regulations another time by giving a special dispensation to another major manufacturer?

Unless it's what Cosworth want, I doubt it..

[mtknot]

so far hydraulic problems and not engine problems have plagued the new teams, and hydraulics involve not the engine but the gear box, brakes, etc. If cossies were that bad all the teams would suffer failures, but so far its limited to virgin. They haven't really broken down in the same manner as ferrari's, etc.

If anyone is to do any fingerpointing, you'd point it at the chassis in general, which explains why Lotus and HRT have ironed out their hydraulic woes unlike virgin. Or maybe that xtrac gearbox, seeing how its just given the new backmarkes woe after woe.

Though theres been several occasions where the xtrac+cossie cars have been said to have "on-off" throttles.

[Owen]

So, I take it the FIA will be very keen to undermine their cherished Cosworth and overlook their own regulations another time by giving a special dispensation to another major manufacturer?

Unless it's what Cosworth want, I doubt it..

How did the 'cosy' relationship with Cosworth originate? (I take it Max has something to do with this).

[onemoresolo]

A Renault website says that a Renault option is better than a Cosworth.

Shock, horror.

Until this appears on a proper news source, I wouldn't take it at face value.

[Ross Stonefeld]

It's not even an official Renault site, but a fan site.

[onemoresolo]

It's not even an official Renault site, but a fan site.

Indeed. I don't think an official one would be silly enough to post something like that!

So yeah, read this story for what it is: a pro-Renault engine story on a Renault fan site. Nothing more to see there... until it reaches Autosport or AMuS, I think that can be discarded.

[Risil]

How did the 'cosy' relationship with Cosworth originate? (I take it Max has something to do with this).

I imagine the powers-that-be needed to arrange a fallback supply of engines in 2008-9, when it looked like Toyota, BMW and Renault might follow Honda out the door, and take their engine supplies with them. Not many people expected Brixworth to supply three teams with works Mercedes engines, either. It was more cost-effective for Cosworth to supply three or four teams, than do all that development just for maybe one uncompetitive outfit.

Plus there was the malarkey about a FOTA breakaway, which might have required a whole grid's worth of engines for the 'new' 'Formula One'.

[Owen]

I imagine the powers-that-be needed to arrange a fallback supply of engines in 2008-9, when it looked like Toyota, BMW and Renault might follow Honda out the door, and take their engine supplies with them. Not many people expected Brixworth to supply three teams with works Mercedes engines, either. It was more cost-effective for Cosworth to supply three or four teams, than do all that development just for maybe one uncompetitive outfit.

Plus there was the malarkey about a FOTA breakaway, which might have required a whole grid's worth of engines for the 'new' 'Formula One'.

Yeh, Cosworth must have been delighted to take that call.

[pgj]

It's impossible to judge, really. Virgin, Lotus and Hispania are all four seconds per lap off the pace. Williams' poor performance may be because the engine is down on power, but it might also be an ordinary chassis. After all, they've been fluctuatng between the upper and lower midield since 2005.

The rot had already set in by then.

I would like to know whether the gearshift/hydraulics problems are down to Williams or Cosworth.

[DrF]

But, but, all engines are the same.

Right?

[pingu666]

i think rubens has said its only a lil bit worse, or even equal to last years merc engine (in power), but its the driveability where its most off

[pgj]

But, but, all engines are the same.

Right?

No.

[DrF]

It's what the FIA keep telling us. It must be true.

[pgj]

It's what the FIA keep telling us. It must be true.

Do you have any references for that information source?

[DrF]

http://www.fia.com/m.../270306-01.html

[Slowinfastout]

http://www.fia.com/m.../270306-01.html

That doesn't mean the engines are the same... for instance the Honda engine was a disaster compared to the best ones.. too peaky and it was trying to shake the car apart in the process, it probably contributed significantly to the departure of Honda, along with the rules associated with it and also how those rules were handled.. (I don't think Honda in Japan knew well how to play the political game with upgrades and what not, and Toyota I believe too... to an extent I think it's a cultural thing.. But Toyota also got booted out of rally so they might estimate it was riskier for them as well... but all that sh*t is for another thread lol)

[GhostR]

http://www.fia.com/m.../270306-01.html

No where in that link does it say that the engines are all equal.

[David M. Kane]

I agree with Ross; I too think it is more that the Renault is a better package and the price is probably a fair one.

[Fastcake]

I'll wait until it's not just on the Renault site first.

[Fastcake]

I'll wait until it's not just on the Renault site first.

[primer]

I don't get why Williams went with Cosworth in the first place.

$.

[CaptnMark]

But, but, all engines are the same.

Right?

I wonder why Cosworth isn't doing 'reliability' upgrades...

[DFV]

I don't get why Williams went with Cosworth in the first place.

What where their options?

Toyota - Out
BMW - Out
Mercedes - McLaren veto over customer deals (as in Red Bull saga last year)
Renault - Williams got a NO from Renault before going to Cosworth (as far as I remember)
Ferrari - Maybe but probably not willing to supply more teams and probably not Williams...

So Williams only had Ferrari (not a likely option) besides Cosworth as a possible option. Which also basically shows that it was a good thing to get an independent engine supplier into F1, right? Where would F1 be without Cosworth today? 4 teams without engines possibly...?

Or does anyone have another available engine supplier that Williams could have signed with for 2010?


And as regards the quality of the engine:

No engine reliability issues like Ferrari so far (but this could partly be down to running the engines a bit on the safe side so far).
It's supposedly close to Mercedes in top end power (admittedly according to Cosworth themselves).
Rubens Barrichello (who had Mercedes power last year) has said that the engine is good and that the engine is not responsible for the lack of performance from the car.

I believe that it might still be a bit thirsty but that they might be able to finetune their lean maps during the season.

Edited by DFV, 06 May 2010 - 18:51.

[Lennat]

Rubens Barrichello (who had Mercedes power last year) has said that the engine is good and that the engine is not responsible for the lack of performance from the car.

Source?

[seltaeb]

LOL! Check out this quote from Rubens today

Q: If you could make a wish for the next couple of races, what would it be?
RB: Ha, a real wish would be just to forget what we know and win the races. I would love that. For us to win the race here in Barcelona it would have to snow on all the other people and not me. That’s the funny thing about it - the fact is that anything can happen in a Formula One race!

[BiH]

the latest interview with autosport rubens suggests just that, seems cosworth is not good enough.

[roadie]

Mike Gascoyne also says that the engine degradation is worse than expected. I take that to mean it loses more power than expected over the course of its life. We haven't been told what fuel and lubricants the Cosworths are running. Not having a relationship like Ferrari and Shell, and Mercedes and Mobil etc. might be hurting them.

[Lennat]

So it seems to be confirmed then that the Cosworth isn't up scratch, and therefore it might hurt Williams surprisingly much, which is a shame.

[Villes Gilleneuve]

How credible is this story?

It's on the internet, everything on the internet is verified.

[GustavoB]

It's on the internet, everything on the internet is verified.

[loki]

So it seems to be confirmed then that the Cosworth isn't up scratch, and therefore it might hurt Williams surprisingly much, which is a shame.

When one looks at the trap speeds the Cosworths are right up there with the front runners. Wasn't that the first Cosworth to expire in the Williams in FP2? Lotus have more issues at the moment than Gascoyne blaming the powerplant. They could have a Ferrari or Mercedes and the car would still be seconds off the pace. They've got to develop that car a lot more before they can start blaming the engine.

[DFV]

So it seems to be confirmed then that the Cosworth isn't up scratch, and therefore it might hurt Williams surprisingly much, which is a shame.

Where have you got the confirmation that the engine isn't up to scratch?

Engine degradation a bit worse than hoped for, fuel consumption might be a bit higher than hoped for as well. But is it worse on fuel consumption than the Ferrari for instance? Fact is WE don't know that.

Christian Klien:
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/83419

Q. How is the power?

CK: Well I was on a practice engine mode of the Cosworth engine, which I think is 50 horsepower down. I did one lap on race engine mode basically. The engine feels okay. I don't think the engine is the major problem, definitely not. It is more the chassis.

Heikki Kovalainen:
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/82054

Q. Heikki, you had the Mercedes engine last year and you can compare the Cosworth to the Mercedes. How does it come out?

HK: I think to give a direct comparison is probably not fair as the performance of the car at this stage is very different. But I think so far they have done a very good job. Like Nico says, the reliability has been fantastic. I have not had a single problem. I don't think if anyone had a problem with the engine and just the initial feeling is that the power is competitive. I don't think that will not be an issue. I think it is good.

Nico Hulkenberg:
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/81427

Q. How have you found the performance of the Cosworth engine?

NH: Good. I'm very positively surprised about it. There have been no issues with reliability or driveability. It is all pretty good to be honest.

Q. Can you make any comparison with the Toyota engine?

NH: Yeah it feels better, it feels stronger. I can feel that.

So, maybe the Cosworth in's the most powerful or frugal engine out there, but I don't think that it's the engine that is the teams biggest problems at the moment. At Williams for instance, they had to drop the aero upgrades on Barrichello's car as they where not working, which is kind of worrying.