190 replies to this topic

[stevvy1986]

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/83341

They want it split, because of there being 24 cars, with 3 teams being massively slower than the rest, and so a bigger risk in Q1 of a faster car coming up behind a very slow car from Virgin or whoever, and smashing into them. What do you guys reckon?

[JPW]

Just get on with it surely they can find 1 more or less OK lap to get into Q2 but if they do split Q1 up into 2 groups then I hope it is dry when the small teams qualify and that it starts to rain when the frontrunners go out.

[sosidge]

I don't really buy into this attitude that the new teams need to be split away from the established ones.

After all, drivers only need to get one good lap in, and they have 20 minutes to do it. It matters not one jot whether you are P1 or P17 after Q1.

And if we exclude the faster cars from the first qualifying session, we would never end up with the situation we had in Malaysia where the Ferrari's and Hamilton failed at the first hurdle, and where the likes of Kovaleinen had the chance to run in Q2.

So no, I don't think it should happen.

[PayasYouRace]

Sounds like a good idea to me. There's never been the need for 24 cars to qualify in 20 minutes at Monaco before and it could get a bit hectic. As long as they have a fair system to decide who goes in which group it's OK with me.

[Rob]

They used to run 28 cars in one session.

[Captain Tightpants]

I have no issue with it. It keeps qualifying safe and fair. They should have a "Q0" session for the new teams, and then eliminate eight cars in Q1.

[alfa1]

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/83341

They want it split, because of there being 24 cars, with 3 teams being massively slower than the rest, and so a bigger risk in Q1 of a faster car coming up behind a very slow car from Virgin or whoever, and smashing into them. What do you guys reckon?

The solutions given in the article seem to imply that someone will decide arbitrarily who the "fast" guys are and who the "slow" guys are. As seen at other races, this isnt always easy to predict.

Much easier to add an extra 10 or 15 minutes to the first session and run it like normal. The extra time being an insurance against being blocked. If you cant do a quick time to get out of Q1 in what would now be about half an hour, then you probably dont deserve it anyway.

[PayasYouRace]

They used to run 28 cars in one session.

Actually 30 at times, but they had a whole hour to do it.

[CaptainJackSparrow]

Great idea, the HRT's etc are just going to screw up people's flying laps so let's keep the racing about the racing and pure pace.

[NeilMick]

The solutions given in the article seem to imply that someone will decide arbitrarily who the "fast" guys are and who the "slow" guys are. As seen at other races, this isnt always easy to predict.

Much easier to add an extra 10 or 15 minutes to the first session and run it like normal. The extra time being an insurance against being blocked. If you cant do a quick time to get out of Q1 in what would now be about half an hour, then you probably dont deserve it anyway.

The problem is most of the quickest times are set at the end of the session, so if you get held up then, you're screwed.

[hotstickyslick]

They used to run 28 cars in one session.

Back when following another car wasn't nearly as costly as it is now.

I think this is a sensible idea which would help F1's integrity as a sport rather than a happy-go-lucky lottery and would stop drivers from moaning in the paddock about traffic.

[stevvy1986]

Also got to bear in mind the potential for it to not be totally dry for quali, which again makes things awkward in terms of making it fair for everyone. The only way they could really do it, is possibly make Q1 for the small teams, and let them battle over positions 19-24, then Q2 the other 18 go out, 8 go out of Q2, and then Q3 is as normal. Not convinced that'd be fair though.

[Captain Tightpants]

Back when following another car wasn't nearly as costly as it is now.

And when they weren't running the knockout system.

[MichaelJP]

Can't see it being a safety thing, more a fairness issue as most of Monaco it is very difficult to keep out of the way if you're a slower car.

I guess what they're suggesting is have a modified Q1 where the bottom 12 drivers in the championship go out and compete for 5 spots to get into Q2.

Stop moaning and get on with it I would say - it's more fun if there's a mixed up grid anyway.

[DrF]

Just watched one of those old GP's on iPlayer and noticed that back then a backmarker didn't have to let someone past when he was being lapped.

I like it. Away with Blue Flags. If you are in a faster car, then the guy in the slower car needn't have to let you past.

Traffic is part of the race. You need to be clever to miss the rush, even at Monaco.

If the drivers don't want to deal with slower cars then they can go to A1GP.

[JPW]

Also got to bear in mind the potential for it to not be totally dry for quali, which again makes things awkward in terms of making it fair for everyone.

Exactly, I would like to hear the top teams about fair when it suddenly starts raining after the qualy for the smaller teams.
Furthermore it will conflict with many broadcasters' schedule as most donot have the time to get an extra 20 mins of qualifying into their schedule.

Only way I can see this as fair is when the smaller teams voluntarily agree to run a separate qualy.

[demoing]

Qualifying is qualifying
let them all run on the same track its down to the teams and drivers as always to ensure they are not put out on the track when they are likely to get slowed down.
Besides the rules clearly state if a car is on a fast lap it is the responsibility of the slower car to get out of the way.

[Captain Tightpants]

If the drivers don't want to deal with slower cars then they can go to A1GP.

A1GP doesn't exist anymore.

[DrF]

A1GP doesn't exist anymore.

Yeah, F1 is about to replace it.

[FireWood]

Qualifying is qualifying
let them all run on the same track its down to the teams and drivers as always to ensure they are not put out on the track when they are likely to get slowed down.
Besides the rules clearly state if a car is on a fast lap it is the responsibility of the slower car to get out of the way.

The problem is that there's not much room to get out of the way at Monaco. As as for having a mixed up grid to add interest, again, it's not like other circuits where there's plenty of space for overtaking.

I'm not sure what I think to the idea yet, and how it would be implemented, but I can see the reasoning behind it.

[Dalton007]

Qualifying is qualifying
let them all run on the same track its down to the teams and drivers as always to ensure they are not put out on the track when they are likely to get slowed down.
Besides the rules clearly state if a car is on a fast lap it is the responsibility of the slower car to get out of the way.

Yep. Maybe the top teams need to drive four or five laps in Q1? It'll make the grid interesting, that's for sure.

[skid solo]

It's a sensible idea if it's dry. If it rains then we run the prospect of having the fastest cars at the back with no way to pass..

[harrows]

That's BS. Guaranteeing a ticket into Q2 for front runners isn't justified. What if they 'split' the field at Malaysia? LH, FM and FA's mistakes wouldn't have mattered at all.. I'd like to see an equal chance for all drivers to bin it by themselves

[King Six]

How would they do it? Where would the split be? Lotus/HRT/Virgin and then the rest? Aren't Lotus making some decent progress, they've already been into Q2. I doubt Tony Fernandes would like that....

Doesn't really seem workable. Plus it's creating a situation where things are being assumed. That's the whole point of Qualifying, to remove that assumption, if you get me.

Or would they just split the cars into two groups regardless of any assumptions, just pure random groups. A and B. That would still raise questions.

Edited by King Six, 06 May 2010 - 15:05.

[undersquare]

Do we want to see the top teams and drivers racing for a result on merit, or do we want some random bad luck putting some of them out at Q1?

It's Monaco. Bad Q means weekend over. People doing the tough guy 'get on with it' thing will change their tune pretty smartly if it's their team/driver who gets blocked.

Split the field for Q1, and let's see all the fast guys racing each other at the front.

And let the new teams compete on their level playing field, without having to jump off line and lose time in some random fashion as well.

[PayasYouRace]

Maybe have two sessions with one driver from each team in the first and the other driver in the second. Then the slowest 4 from each session get knocked out. That way the weather or track conditions won't have an effect.

[BenettonB192]

Everybody has the same risk of running into traffic and getting their lap spoiled. Its just how it is. I don't see a reason to change rules for one specific race. It's a stupid idea.

[bond]

Slower cars are part of the show, deal with it...
If they're afraid to run into some cars why don't they just split the race too? In the morning the slower cars and in the afternoon the faster ones...

[TheHakk]

I don't how there can be a truly fair and democratic way of doing this; unless 12 cars (1 from each team) takes part in one session, then the other 12 in another. The bottom 7 times overall are eliminated before Q2 starts. But then this raises issues of how the track will peform, surely the first 12 would be at a disadvantage as the track wouldn't be 'rubbered in'. I guess the teams would have to make a decision on who to run in each session.

[PayasYouRace]

I don't how there can be a truly fair and democratic way of doing this; unless 12 cars (1 from each team) takes part in one session, then the other 12 in another. The bottom 7 times overall are eliminated before Q2 starts. But then this raises issues of how the track will peform, surely the first 12 would be at a disadvantage as the track wouldn't be 'rubbered in'. I guess the teams would have to make a decision on who to run in each session.

If you do that, but instead of taking the bottom 7 overall, you take the bottom (say) 4 from each session, it removes the effect of changing track conditions.

[Alexis*27]

Everybody has the same risk of running into traffic and getting their lap spoiled. Its just how it is. I don't see a reason to change rules for one specific race. It's a stupid idea.

I agree. It's a competition - everybody's in the same boat and it's up to everybody to do the best job they can.

Bruno Senna seems to the one worried that he'll get stick for holding people up. How about just sitting it out in the pits Bruno?

[TheHakk]

If you do that, but instead of taking the bottom 7 overall, you take the bottom (say) 4 from each session, it removes the effect of changing track conditions.

Yes, problem solved! *Literally just thought of that way of doing it before I saw your post.

Makes perfect sense.

[David M. Kane]

In 1978 Keke Rosberg had to pre[-quality on Thursday like at dawn, I was there saw it and heard it. Not a new idea; but a good one.

[NightProwler]

Dumb idea.

All the established teams have to do to get passed Q! is to put a lap time down straight away. Go out straight away and bank a repectable if not particularly fast time. These new teams are 4 seconds of the pace if not more. They have problems because they leave it until the last minute. Any clean lap from the big teams will ensure they go through to the next session.

Just get out there early!

[stevvy1986]

Do we want to see the top teams and drivers racing for a result on merit, or do we want some random bad luck putting some of them out at Q1?

It's Monaco. Bad Q means weekend over. People doing the tough guy 'get on with it' thing will change their tune pretty smartly if it's their team/driver who gets blocked.

Split the field for Q1, and let's see all the fast guys racing each other at the front.

And let the new teams compete on their level playing field, without having to jump off line and lose time in some random fashion as well.

But the same applies every year doesn't it? You can't just say 'It's Monaco, lets have all the quick guys at the front racing each other' because some bad luck might mean they're screwed for the rest of the weekend because of the way the track is. Also, if you split the field, and conditions are changeable, then those who are struck in the wetter part of quali are screwed, and are going to be peeved, all because they were put in the wrong section of quali, and so were screwed by the weather. Also there's the problem of 'how do you decide which 6 teams go out first, and which 6 teams go out in the 2nd group?'

[Kooper]

That's BS. Guaranteeing a ticket into Q2 for front runners isn't justified. What if they 'split' the field at Malaysia? LH, FM and FA's mistakes wouldn't have mattered at all.. I'd like to see an equal chance for all drivers to bin it by themselves

I agree. Plus everyone knew Monaco was going to be difficult before the season even started - wanting to change Q a week before the race is BS. The 'front-runners' can go out and be street sweepers too as 20 minutes is plenty of time to get a good lap in for everybody.

[Tenmantaylor]

The best thing that could happen at Monaco would be for a few of the top drivers have their last gasp Q1 laps spoiled and start at near the back. Might get a more interesting race that way.

Leave the rules as is.Yes there is some luck involved but timing when to do a Q lap has always been important. Just look at McLaren in Malaysia leaving it late and paying the price.

If I was driving in a top team Id plan on a fuelling up for a 3 lap qual stint early doors. The extra time added to the lap as a result of the fuel mass wouldnt be enough to miss Q2 providing you got a clean lap on 1 of those 3 such is the spread of laptimes anyway in Q1.

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 06 May 2010 - 15:37.

[tifosi]

Furthermore it will conflict with many broadcasters' schedule as most donot have the time to get an extra 20 mins of qualifying into their schedule.

Agreed. Gawd knows what tragedies would occur if one of the 37 airings of the RAIN-X commercial was not broadcast dailey.

[undersquare]

But the same applies every year doesn't it? You can't just say 'It's Monaco, lets have all the quick guys at the front racing each other' because some bad luck might mean they're screwed for the rest of the weekend because of the way the track is. Also, if you split the field, and conditions are changeable, then those who are struck in the wetter part of quali are screwed, and are going to be peeved, all because they were put in the wrong section of quali, and so were screwed by the weather. Also there's the problem of 'how do you decide which 6 teams go out first, and which 6 teams go out in the 2nd group?'

Well there are some tricky decisions to be made, agreed, but leaving 24 cars to qualify in 20 minutes has a lot of downside. That's still a decision and one of the worst from the point of view of a sporting competition to be won on merit.

And it is worse this year, more traffic and 6 cars some 5 seconds adrift. At least in previous years the odds were on that they could get a clear lap, now if they do nothing it'll be odds against.

[JPW]

People doing the tough guy 'get on with it' thing will change their tune pretty smartly if it's their team/driver who gets blocked.

No they won't that's the difference between racing fans and driver groupies.
If a driver or topteam I support can't find a reasonable clean lap in 20 minutes to out-qualify the likes of Lotus, HRT etc then too bad if they're out for Q2.

@tifosi: they have 20+ min. RAIN-X commercials where you come from

[Don_Humpador]

Everybody has the same risk of running into traffic and getting their lap spoiled. Its just how it is. I don't see a reason to change rules for one specific race. It's a stupid idea.

+1.

[LuisPena]

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/83341

They want it split, because of there being 24 cars, with 3 teams being massively slower than the rest, and so a bigger risk in Q1 of a faster car coming up behind a very slow car from Virgin or whoever, and smashing into them. What do you guys reckon?

NOOOOOOOOOOO PLEASE.....

Really let them play!!!!! it will be freaking crazy and fun!!!! at least for the audience...
Let the show go on!!!!!!!

[PayasYouRace]

Also, remember that in the days of pre-qualifying, the top teams got a free ride. Only the slowest teams had to pre-qualify on Friday mornings. It was decided by the constructors standings for the previous half season. That meant that often competitive cars would have to go through it (e.g. Jordan in 1st half of 91) while other slower cars got in automatically.

Was that "fair" then? I think so.

[hotstickyslick]

Just watched one of those old GP's on iPlayer and noticed that back then a backmarker didn't have to let someone past when he was being lapped.

I like it. Away with Blue Flags. If you are in a faster car, then the guy in the slower car needn't have to let you past.

Traffic is part of the race. You need to be clever to miss the rush, even at Monaco.

If the drivers don't want to deal with slower cars then they can go to A1GP.

Why should backmarkers influence a competitve race at the front? The blue flag rules are good and will stay, thank goodness.

And let us remember that these aren't the 'old' days, we saw what Bahrain was like, having no blue flags would be disastorous - we'd just see the guys at the front lap slower than they would because they're afraid of catching up with traffic.

[Atreiu]

20 minutes is more than enough for a decent lap to get you in Q2.

[Ellios]

Compromise to the (some) drivers wishes in this instance I believe is a mistake.

[Frank Tuesday]

Actually 30 at times, but they had a whole hour to do it.

Yeah, but how many times did we see only one or two backmarkers in the first half hour, just to get TV time.

[hotstickyslick]

20 minutes is more than enough for a decent lap to get you in Q2.

But it's more than that, track conditions could be the best at a certain time which will cause a mad rush for a lap plus the lack of tyres doesn't help things either.

[Hairpin]

I guess they want to make sure they can get through Q1 with as few laps as possible. If they are prepared to do more, they are safe. On the other hand - to be safe everybody will have to do lap lap lap to make sure/hope to get to Q2, so the track will be more crowded than ever before since in the "good old days" the unwritten rule was that the slower teams got most of their running done before the big guns started to battle it out the last 20 minutes.

A dilemma. Part of me think that the top 10 in WDC standings should go directly to Q2, another part of me thinks that the only exciting part of qualifying nowadays is to see if a top runner fail to make it through Q3

I know, evil of me, but if they start to make changes in Monaco, they will ask for changes in Valencia, changes in...

It was not supposed to be a two tier championship, but if some teams are sorted out as "in the way" and "safety risks" already before the qualifying, but still are allowed to compete, something is wrong.

[Fastcake]

Stop whinging, its only a week before the race, have a couple drivers really only thought of this now! It is far to late to change it, just plan out your laps dependant on the traffic, you know like every other race?