121 replies to this topic

[OO7]

I think the chicane should be ditched. The circuit should generally use the pre penultimate chicane format, but the fast flatout penultimate righthander should be turned into a slow 90 degree righthander instead. If the need for an extended run-off prevents this, the corner before the curret chicane should remain a slow corner, however it should have an angle greater than it currently has and be linked to the final corner via a curved 'straight.

Edited by OO7, 18 December 2020 - 15:35.

[Risil]

I'd be careful about making any changes to the layout, simply because it works so well for Grand Prix bikes (although maybe the pit straight doesn't have to be THAT long).

[OO7]

I'd be careful about making any changes to the layout, simply because it works so well for Grand Prix bikes (although maybe the pit straight doesn't have to be THAT long).

The changes I suggested would be independant of the layout used by the GP bikes, just as it is currently.

[BenettonB192]

The biggest problem on this track are the first two corners. They are too fast. After the long straight a slow first corner would be perfect. Then this track would have a decent spot for overtaking and we wouldn't see such boring races on it. A second spot for overtaking could be created by making turn 10 a hairpin. The chicane is also crap. It was necessary because the track was a bit too fast and dangerous there. But it would work better to just make the corner before the last corner a bit slower and steeper then it used to.

I think these changes could be done using the existing space without too much landscaping and relocation of stands necessary. The current layout could also stay in place where it is for bikes.

[Les]

Bulldoze it.

[MortenF1]

Les

I agree with BenettonB192, and I've said it for years; just make a hairpin at the end of the main straight.

[Lights]

The biggest problem on this track are the first two corners. They are too fast. After the long straight a slow first corner would be perfect. Then this track would have a decent spot for overtaking and we wouldn't see such boring races on it. A second spot for overtaking could be created by making turn 10 a hairpin. The chicane is also crap. It was necessary because the track was a bit too fast and dangerous there. But it would work better to just make the corner before the last corner a bit slower and steeper then it used to.

I think these changes could be done using the existing space without too much landscaping and relocation of stands necessary. The current layout could also stay in place where it is for bikes.

This except the 2nd last corner. You cant follow somebody through there.

[BenettonB192]

This except the 2nd last corner. You cant follow somebody through there.

I doubt that we will ever see the fast corner that it used to. So its either this crappy chicane or a slower corner considering the space that is available in this area. Besides you still have the fast last corner and a very long straight to get behind the car in front. It should be enough even with todays cars.

[Kooper]

run the race anti-clockwise a year or two and see how that goes. if that doesn't work, "bulldoze it".

[Radoye]

Bulldoze it.

[OO7]

Here are some of my ideas:

1)
This version uses a tight and slow penultimate corner to slow the cars throught the final corner. The final corner should be flatout and the cars should be able to follow each other through it without concern. The problem however is that the penultimate corner means there is little room for runoff without extending the boundaries which may not be possible.

2)
This is the same as Version 1 but includes a much tighter and slower first corner to help with overtaking.

3)
This version is the same as Version 1 and 2, but with a very slow and modified T1 and T2. The ideal is to give the attacking car the advantage into T2 if a car defends on the inside into T1.


1.1)
This version is similar to Version 1, but the penultimate corner is the same as the one currently used minus the chicane and the final corner has been moved closer to the Start/Finish line to allow for runoff at the penultimate corner.

2.1)
This version is the same as Version 1.1 but includes the slow, tight first corner used in version 2

3.1)
This version is the same as Version 1.1 and 2.1 but includes the new T1 and T2 corners used in Version 3

Edited by OO7, 18 December 2020 - 15:35.

[raiseyourfistfor]

hey, how about this

[OO7]

hey, how about this

The old layout would continue to remain for the GP bikes, F1 cars however just can't follow each other closely enought through the last two corners, which is why I started this topic.

[BenettonB192]

hey, how about this

The old layout wouldn't fix any of the conceptual flaws of this track. And the combination with the two fast corners 12 and 13 leading into a very long straight is considered too dangerous for modern F1 cars. You can dream but don't think it will be raced like this ever again. Not with cars that have so much grip.

[chdphd]

Make the train stop outside it.

[Lights]

Here are some of my ideas:

Don't want to screw your ideas over but with that 120 degree penultimate corner, the speed built up towards the final corner will be too high again to follow another car through it without lifting. It'll turn into a 2nd Campsa.

[Slowinfastout]

I'm gonna derail the thread a bit...

Isn't it time to make a change to the track and tighten up the T1-T2 sequence of corners?

After making the last sector very Mickey Mouse, the following car can get a run on the car ahead, but there isn't enough of a braking zone to really make it a proper overtaking opportunity at the end of the main straight... you can't afford to get out of the racing line (and on the marbles) in these flowing corners..

I really feel this could easily be turned into a more exiting track with that simple fix.



edit: thx mods for turning this into a thread..

Edited by Slowinfastout, 10 May 2010 - 11:08.
removed "I'm gonna derail the thread a bit..." after split

[NightProwler]

I'm gonna derail the thread a bit...

Isn't it time to make a change to the track and tighten up the T1-T2 sequence of corners?

After making the last sector very Mickey Mouse, the following car can get a run on the car ahead, but there isn't enough of a braking zone to really make it a proper overtaking opportunity at the end of the main straight... you can't afford to get out of the racing line (and on the marbles) in these flowing corners..

I really feel this could easily be turned into a more exiting track with that simple fix.



edit: thx mods for turning this into a thread..

No there is enough Tilke stop start corners as it is. Catalunya is a refreshing change if only for watching the cars in some mid to high speed corners.

[noikeee]

Well, it might help a little bit but I didn't see many people managing to get any sniff of a slipstream into the main straight, so I doubt it'd make much difference.

I think the problem is that the cars are being constantly under aero load during almost the entire track, and therefore they fall into a queue even before going into the chicane. The chicane helps slightly, but since it's so hard to catch the car ahead before it, you never see anyone running close to the car ahead out of it.

So, unless you change the entire track there's just no way to fix it really. I wish they'd just give up and bring back the old final two quick corners, but they can't do it neither because there's no runoff.

Edited by paranoik0, 10 May 2010 - 11:12.

[Slowinfastout]

Well, it might help a little bit but I didn't see many people managing to get any sniff of a slipstream into the main straight, so I doubt it'd make much difference.

I think the problem is that the cars are being constantly under aero load during almost the entire track, and therefore they fall into a queue even before going into the chicane. The chicane helps slightly, but since it's so hard to catch the car ahead before it, you never see anyone running close to the car ahead out of it.

So, unless you change the entire track there's just no way to fix it really. I wish they'd just give up and bring back the old final two quick corners, but they can't do it neither because there's no runoff.

I agree but only partly... I think what we're seeing is also the result of the drivers being resolved into the mindset that it's pretty much useless to even try to get into a fight as it's just so easy for the car ahead to control what's gonna happen...

That's what I got of the Button and Schuey battle anyway... put a huge braking zone at the end of that straight and Schumacher wouldn't have been able to block the inside there without paying the price... maybe he still would but they'd lose so much more time defending like that, it would rapidly become a multi-car battle.

[onemoresolo]

It would benefit from a Nurburgring-esque reprofiling of the first corner. La Caixa may also see more overtaking if it were tightened up.

[onemoresolo]

Make the train stop outside it.

That would be good. The walk from Montmelo station is a bit arduous to say the least. Not sure it would improve the racing though

[Stormsky68]

You can't polish a turd

Never seen anything other than a procession there in what, 16 years of F1 racing?

Bulldoze it

[Gemini]

I agree but only partly... I think what we're seeing is also the result of the drivers being resolved into the mindset that it's pretty much useless to even try to get into a fight as it's just so easy for the car ahead to control what's gonna happen...

Exactly.

Especially as now with 50 laps second stints if you lock your wheels when outbraking and flat spot them you are ****ed for two third of the race

[Seanspeed]

Tightening up the first corner is the most obvious change that needs to be made.

The only thing I would do to the chicane is move the left/right bit up the hill a little more. This would 'extend' the straight a little bit, allowing more time for cars to really make use of the draft down the straight. I think if you take away the chicane completely, you're gonna have examples of cars already starting to get a run coming out of the 2nd-to-last corner, but having to back off and tuck in line for the final fast turn, which isn't good for overtaking.

Edited by Seanspeed, 10 May 2010 - 11:41.

[Captain Tightpants]

Like this:

http://www.gmap-pedo....com/?r=3713760

[Captain Tightpants]

Or better yet, like this.

[craigsimons1993]

You can't polish a turd

Never seen anything other than a procession there in what, 16 years of F1 racing?

Bulldoze it

[One]

Or better yet, like this.

Cool


BTW what about moving Pit complex to the other straight, between the turn 9 and 10. By this move all cars including pitting will reach max speed ending up in lesser lap time differences between pit-car and Non-pit-car.

[Atreiu]

I don't see any quick fix for it without ruining what is now the Moto GP layout.
So just go back to that since it was all the same and boring.

[One]

What about these?


Monjuic GP 1

Monjuic GP 2

Edited by One, 10 May 2010 - 12:33.

[Kucki]

They should have never switched to the shorter backstraight version

[OO7]

Tightening up the first corner is the most obvious change that needs to be made.

The only thing I would do to the chicane is move the left/right bit up the hill a little more. This would 'extend' the straight a little bit, allowing more time for cars to really make use of the draft down the straight. I think if you take away the chicane completely, you're gonna have examples of cars already starting to get a run coming out of the 2nd-to-last corner, but having to back off and tuck in line for the final fast turn, which isn't good for overtaking.

Assuming you are correct and a very tight corner such as those I suggesting in 1), 2) and 3) still prevents the cars from going through the final corner flatout when in tow, due to the increased lenght of the short straight, the following may help:

4)

5)

The new curved section would be taken flat-out, until braking for the tight penultimate right hander.

[Tenmantaylor]

As a drivers aero circuit it's fantastic. Its got good rhythm, ups and downs. The last chicane ruined it a bit but Id guess most drivers like the circuit in isolation. Its also got a good amphitheatre setting for the fans too. As an F1 racing circuit it's terrible however. The change to turn 10 has become a bit of an overtake spot - Rosberg probably wouldnt have got past at the old corner due to less braking. The chicane is terrible however, probably the worst on the calendar. At least the Imola chicanes required a setup to handle them and were a challenge of the circuit.

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 10 May 2010 - 13:05.

[pingu666]

[Tenmantaylor]

What about these?


Monjuic GP 1

Monjuic GP 2

Walked around Montjuich Park on a recent visit to Barcelona along most of those proposed roads. It would absolutely immensely DANGEROUS which is why im guessing they stopped. It'd have the speed of Barcelona but with 0 run off and a thousand trees to hit at every corner. That said we still race at Monaco next to a harbour.

[Stormsky68]

[One]

Walked around Montjuich Park on a recent visit to Barcelona along most of those proposed roads. It would absolutely immensely DANGEROUS which is why im guessing they stopped. It'd have the speed of Barcelona but with 0 run off and a thousand trees to hit at every corner. That said we still race at Monaco next to a harbour.

Yup, I agree actually to your points. There is a botanical garden and more trees on the monjuic which makes it more interesting for a GP driver to learn what Kimi is learning, currently. ;-)

Yet I do think that more up and down and difficult corners can show more differences in car's potentials visible.

[BlackCat]

bulldoze, then plant some trees...

[Captain Tightpants]

What about these?


Monjuic GP 1

Monjuic GP 2

They look good, but they're probably waaay too narrow. The only reason why I suggested the first one in Montjuic is because it used to be the home of the Spanish GP.

[GSiebert]

Stop thinking about modifying tracks, its the cars who are just wrong and not suitable for racing.

[sosidge]

To suggest destroying it is just silly... it's a good facility, and with that long straight it only needs a few tweaks to make it into one of the best passing points on the calendar.

I'd agree with tightening turn 1, I'd also suggest opening out the penultimate chicane a little (too mickey mouse for F1, the cars need to be manhandled through it rather than driven, and this compromises exit traction).

The last corner seems to be a pure acceleration zone now, Alonso was going through there one-handed with his hand-flap which surprised me a little, I don't think it needs changing.

[albertini]

The biggest problem on this track are the first two corners. They are too fast. After the long straight a slow first corner would be perfect. Then this track would have a decent spot for overtaking and we wouldn't see such boring races on it. A second spot for overtaking could be created by making turn 10 a hairpin. The chicane is also crap. It was necessary because the track was a bit too fast and dangerous there. But it would work better to just make the corner before the last corner a bit slower and steeper then it used to.

I think these changes could be done using the existing space without too much landscaping and relocation of stands necessary. The current layout could also stay in place where it is for bikes.

[Captain Tightpants]

5)

I don't like the changes to the first corner complex. Barcelona has a certain flow to it through the first three corners, and replacing it with a carbon coby of Abu Dhabi's switchback is only going to removing the characters from the few corners that still have it.

[OO7]

Stop thinking about modifying tracks, its the cars who are just wrong and not suitable for racing.

I absolutely agree that the cars are at fault, however given that the cars remain to be so heavily aero dependant (and there are currnetly no plans for that to change anytime soon), the next best thing is to modify the circuits.

[OO7]

I don't like the changes to the first corner complex. Barcelona has a certain flow to it through the first three corners, and replacing it with a carbon coby of Abu Dhabi's switchback is only going to removing the characters from the few corners that still have it.

There have to be some sacrifices for better on track racing, until they truely decide to sort the cars out.

[Baddoer]

how 'bout that

[GSiebert]

I absolutely agree that the cars are at fault, however given that the cars remain to be so heavily aero dependant (and there are currnetly no plans for that to change anytime soon), the next best thing is to modify the circuits.

We already have stupid and ugly cars, so yes, lets transform all the classic fast flowing european tracks into Bahrain or Abu Dhabi shits with only slow 90° turns and hairpins, good idea. Bahrain has some corners like what you want, did you see any overtaking last time F1 went there anyway ?

Edited by GSiebert, 10 May 2010 - 14:01.

[Willow Rosenberg]

For the 42684533467th time: theres more to a good circuit than just overtaking opportunities. Even if the cars are to blame, Barcelona still blows.

[Atreiu]

Give up, you won't get it right with some quick fixes.
Bahrain was built from scratch in the desert with all those slow corners and very wide and long straights, yet the races were still far form remarkable even before the new and horrendous second sector. Reprofiling a corner or two won't make that much of a difference at Barcelona.

So just go back to the 2002 layout. It was not the most exciting, far from that, but it was quite fast and flowing.