43 replies to this topic

[seltaeb]

While watching qualifying this morning, I really enjoyed the helicopter shots of the Catalunya circuit. Some of them were pretty striking in comparing the clearly visible organic circuit with the newer chicane sections. For instance, that second to last turn looks like it used to be a nice right-handed sweeper, but now it's 3 slower corners instead.

So that got me thinking, could F1 start removing these types of chicanes in favor of a return to the original medium to high speed corners? I don't pose this question to invite judgment on whether F1 should or will do this, but rather, could it be done logistically and safely?

I know there are certain places, Tamburello for instance, (if they ever return to San Marino) where a chicane is a good idea since there isn't enough run-off at the original turn. However, at a place like Catalunya, it seems like there is ample run-off room where the original layout stands. So now that the cars are safer, are all the revised chicanes really necessary?

How about Monza?

If your answer is that "no, F1 can't remove the chicanes right now," what would be the catalyst for that to happen? Less dependency on aerodynamics?

[ViMaMo]

The last two corners leading onto the main straight is just pathetic (turns 13,14,15), they could just use the original circuit , whats the pt of slowing doen the cars here?

[Dragonfly]

To 'improve' the show.

[ViMaMo]

To 'improve' the show.

Just how?

[Tolyngee]

They're trying to avoid this:





And most recently:
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related


All three had cars end up in dangerous positions, especially Monza, upside-down on the circuit...

[Scotracer]

Just how?

By supposedly allowing the cars to follow each other more closely out of the final corner so they can make a pass in to Turn 1. The problems are:

A) It didn't work
B) The braking distance for Turn 1 is virtually non-existent.

[BenettonB192]

More horse power, way less downforce and weaker brakes. I don't think its gonna happen tho as F1 tries to be as green and safe as possible.

[ViMaMo]

By supposedly allowing the cars to follow each other more closely out of the final corner so they can make a pass in to Turn 1. The problems are:

A) It didn't work
B) The braking distance for Turn 1 is virtually non-existent.

They are braking below the 50m mark, I just dont see any chances.
Mickey mouse corners

[seltaeb]

My other question would be, if run-off area is the main concern, why can't the new tracks be designed WITHOUT chicanes but WITH plenty of run-off area in medium to high-speed corners? I don't mean for this to become a Tilke tirade, but if you have to amputate old tracks and reconfigure them due to safety concerns, you'd think that new tracks -- designed specifically with safety in mind -- could utilize high speed turns without the obligatory chicane at the end of each straight.

[Tolyngee]

My other question would be, if run-off area is the main concern, why can't the new tracks be designed WITHOUT chicanes but WITH plenty of run-off area in medium to high-speed corners? I don't mean for this to become a Tilke tirade, but if you have to amputate old tracks and reconfigure them due to safety concerns, you'd think that new tracks -- designed specifically with safety in mind -- could utilize high speed turns without the obligatory chicane at the end of each straight.

Turkey is a Tilke track, and it's got that quad-apex left-hander...

[Willow Rosenberg]

Barcelona was never 'organic'. Its the epitome of a circuit designed with a set square and some compasses. But the new chicane is clearly a failure, ruined the tracks one good corner, and should be removed forthwith.

[noikeee]

The chicane is there for two reasons, and only one of them is to hopefully, but in vain, aid overtaking. The other is for safety reasons, because there's not too much runoff at the final two corners which were very quick (and spectacular!).

[PayasYouRace]

None of Tilke's tracks have chicanes because of the large run-off's provided. The chicane's all feature on pre-Tilke tracks. So I'll do a count later, but I think F1 has fewer chicanes now than 10 years ago for example.

In fact we half one less this year, with the removal of the Abbey chicane at Silverstone.

Edit: Here's my count:

2000: 19
1 at Melbourne (Clark/Fangio)
4 at Imola (Tamburello/Villeneuve/Alta/Bassa)
1 at Silverstone (Abbey)
1 at Nurburgring (Veedol)
1 at Monaco (Chicane)
1 at Montreal (final turn)
1 at Magny-Cours (before Lycee)
3 at Hockenheim (Clark/Ostkurve/Senna)
1 at Hungaroring (6/7)
1 at Spa (Bus Stop)
3 at Monza (Retifilio/de la Roggia/Ascari)
1 at Suzuka (Casio)

2010: 13
1 at Melbourne (Clark/Fangio)
1 at Catalunya (Europcar)
2 at Monaco (Chicane/Exit of Swimming Pool)
1 at Montreal (final turn)
1 at Hungaroring (7/8)
1 at Spa (Bus Stop)
3 at Monza (Retifilio/de la Roggia/Ascari)
1 at Singapore (10)
1 at Suzuka (Casio)
2 at Abu Dhabi (5/6 / 8/9)

OK so Abu Dhabi has a couple of chicanes. For the record I'm defining a chicane as a set of corners there specifically to slow cars down when a faster route could exist. S-bends do not count. Even if you count a few more or less it's still fewer now.

Edited by PayasYouRace, 08 May 2010 - 18:56.

[Mila]

for the Monza question, the duration of a GP would be too brief--probably under an hour.

Aqua Minerale was re-profiled nicely at Imola.

Edited by Mila, 08 May 2010 - 19:04.

[Lights]

They're trying to avoid this:





And most recently:
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related


All three had cars end up in dangerous positions, especially Monza, upside-down on the circuit...

I see.

Let's ban all corners!

[PayasYouRace]

for the Monza question, the duration of a GP would be too brief--probably under an hour.

Aqua Minerale was re-profiled nicely at Imola.

Yes Monza would go by very quickly. If de-chicaned they would possibly have to increase the race distance (like any of that would happen anyway), maybe in two heats (like AVUS '59).

I agree the removal of the Aqua Minerale chicane was a very nice piece of circuit design.

[Tolyngee]

I see.

Let's ban all corners!

Lack of run-off. At the time, Monza pretty much had none, which is how the car ended up back on the track.

[midgrid]

They're trying to avoid this:





And most recently:
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related


All three had cars end up in dangerous positions, especially Monza, upside-down on the circuit...

Example 1 is Derek Warwick crashing at the Parabolica at Monza in 1990 - no chicane has since been added before the corner.
Example 2 is Ayrton Senna crashing at the Peralta corner at Mexico in 1991 - no chicane was added before the corner in 1992, and F1 has not been there since.
Example 3 is Heikki Kovalainen crashing at Turn 8 at the Circuit de Catalunya in 2008 - no chicane has since been added before this corner, either.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, as none of these accidents resulted in the inclusion of chicanes before the corners in which they occurred.

[noikeee]

None of Tilke's tracks have chicanes because of the large run-off's provided. The chicane's all feature on pre-Tilke tracks. So I'll do a count later, but I think F1 has fewer chicanes now than 10 years ago for example.

In fact we half one less this year, with the removal of the Abbey chicane at Silverstone.

Edit: Here's my count:

(...)

I bet we have a shitload more hairpins now.

[Lights]

Lack of run-off. At the time, Monza pretty much had none, which is how the car ended up back on the track.

Ok, indeed the run-off. But like midgrid, I didn't really get your point either.

[midgrid]

Yes Monza would go by very quickly. If de-chicaned they would possibly have to increase the race distance (like any of that would happen anyway), maybe in two heats (like AVUS '59).

I agree the removal of the Aqua Minerale chicane was a very nice piece of circuit design.

IIRC the current Imola circuit layout has removed the chicane before the start-finish line as well, so chicanes can be removed as the situation demands! Personally I think they could get rid of the Villeneuve chicane as well, so both Tamburello and Tosa would be obvious overtaking opportunities.

[noikeee]

Ok, indeed the run-off. But like midgrid, I didn't really get your point either.

There's little run-off in the last two corners at Barcelona, I believe they couldn't increase the runoff and that's why they put a chicane there.

Edited by paranoik0, 08 May 2010 - 19:15.

[PayasYouRace]

IIRC the current Imola circuit layout has removed the chicane before the start-finish line as well, so chicanes can be removed as the situation demands! Personally I think they could get rid of the Villeneuve chicane as well, so both Tamburello and Tosa would be obvious overtaking opportunities.

True. The Variante Bassa was part removed when the new pits were built there. It still exists in part and I think is used for bike races. I'd imagine the Villeneuve chicane would be hard to remove because of limited run-off, but it would improve the circuit if it could be done.

I bet we have a shitload more hairpins now.

I think you'd win that bet.

[TURU]

So that got me thinking, could F1 start removing these types of chicanes in favor of a return to the original medium to high speed corners?

No.

[Lights]

There's little run-off in the last two corners at Barcelona, I believe they couldn't increase the runoff and that's why they put a chicane there.

[Tolyngee]

Example 1 is Derek Warwick crashing at the Parabolica at Monza in 1990 - no chicane has since been added before the corner.
Example 2 is Ayrton Senna crashing at the Peralta corner at Mexico in 1991 - no chicane was added before the corner in 1992, and F1 has not been there since.
Example 3 is Heikki Kovalainen crashing at Turn 8 at the Circuit de Catalunya in 2008 - no chicane has since been added before this corner, either.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, as none of these accidents resulted in the inclusion of chicanes before the corners in which they occurred.

1) run-off was increased at Monza

2) Don't run there anymore. Nothing happened quickly for the following year as it was a generation ago, and pre-1994, etc.

3) http://totalf1.com/f...t_de_Catalunya/

Modifications were made. (and in 1994 there was that temporary tire chicane there.)


I guess they decided on the chicane instead of a bunch of run-off at the last corner.

Edited by Tolyngee, 08 May 2010 - 19:28.

[noikeee]

True. The Variante Bassa was part removed when the new pits were built there. It still exists in part and I think is used for bike races. I'd imagine the Villeneuve chicane would be hard to remove because of limited run-off, but it would improve the circuit if it could be done.

Perhaps like this?



The area to the left of the current circuit (left from the point of view of this overhead) can't be used because there's a river there. My solution counters that - but there'd still be a problem with too little run-off at Tosa.

[Tolyngee]

but there'd still be a problem with too little run-off at Tosa.

Yes, much too little...

[Lights]

What a beautiful circuit. I want it back. It had such flow.

[Atreiu]

Nobody ever got hurt in those corners at Barcelona, IIRC.

The whole 3rd sector of the track was changed to hopefully provide overtaking, with no success. But they did succeed in making the circuit more complete for testing with each sector being so different and usefull.

I wouldn't mind if they went back to the 2002 layout, which is still there, and used this newer one for testing only.

By the way, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Barcelona 2002

Edited by Atreiu, 08 May 2010 - 20:29.

[PayasYouRace]

Nobody ever got hurt in those corners at Barcelona, IIRC.

The whole 3rd sector of the track was changed to hopefully provide overtaking, with no success. But they did succeed in making the circuit more complete for testing with each sector being so different and usefull.

I wouldn't mind if they went back to the 2002 layout, which is still there, and used this newer one for testing only.

Andrea Montermini would beg to differ. He had a massive crash there in the Simtek in 1994. Broke his legs I think.

[Atreiu]

Those 1994 cars were definitely no standard for modern safety.

[jee]

Andrea Montermini would beg to differ. He had a massive crash there in the Simtek in 1994. Broke his legs I think.

The problem was rather, that at some point the wall must get back close to the circuit and he it at a bad angle. For sure you could make run offs big enough so no one would ever crash, but then spectators would sit hundreds of meters away from the circuit.

[Cenotaph]

None of Tilke's tracks have chicanes because of the large run-off's provided. The chicane's all feature on pre-Tilke tracks. So I'll do a count later, but I think F1 has fewer chicanes now than 10 years ago for example.

Doesnt Istanbul end with a triple chicane and Sepang start with a chicane?

Edit: Nevermind, didnt see the "disclaimer" at the end, i guess Sepang doesnt really qualify as a chicane anyway.

Edited by Cenotaph, 08 May 2010 - 21:58.

[Marbles]

While I'm no fan of chicanes, they are sometimes much better than the alternative:

[V8 Fireworks]

My other question would be, if run-off area is the main concern, why can't the new tracks be designed WITHOUT chicanes but WITH plenty of run-off area in medium to high-speed corners?

It would be nice but do you really think it wouldn't be a snooze. F1 cars can't follow through fast corners.

Besides a fast corner with a Tesco car park run-off area is not really a challenge, and a too-fast corner is just taken flat out due to the downforce of an F1 car.

Presumably the slow turns are put in:
A) FIA rules require some hairpins and a slow speed first corner (don't know why!?)
B) Better for spectators to watch the car working, to give variety of corner types on the track
C) To attempt to create overtaking place.


A track with only fast corners would be interesting to see Even Philip Island has a hairpin-type corner

[V8 Fireworks]

While I'm no fan of chicanes, they are sometimes much better than the alternative:

The long track has been dug up and does not exist anymore

[Mila]

Andrea Montermini would beg to differ. He had a massive crash there in the Simtek in 1994. Broke his legs I think.

that was the final corner, which was also a spot were Mario Haberfeld had a scary one--getting t-boned as his car sat sideways on the track having spun in the gravel. Frentzen, too, had an accident there, slamming the inside wall so hard his Sauber dislodged a concrete block or two.

Edited by Mila, 09 May 2010 - 01:06.

[Andrew Hope]

So, will this thread ultimately come down to a 'is safer racing better racing?' arguement?

[Lights]

So, will this thread ultimately come down to a 'is safer racing better racing?' arguement?

Yes! And no, safer racing is not better.

[Lights]

While I'm no fan of chicanes, they are sometimes much better than the alternative:

Hockenheim is the best chicane-less circuit out there.

[LoudHoward]

So who says the final chicane at Barcelona "doesn't work"? I think it pretty much goes without saying that it allows the cars to run closer together onto the main straight.

It's not the chicanes fault that the braking zone for T1 is midget, and it'd be worse if we had the two fast sweepers (which were nice corners I agree).

[Stormsky68]

The long track has been dug up and does not exist anymore

The greatest loss ever to happen in Formula 1

[Marbles]

The greatest loss ever to happen in Formula 1

I'll never understand how that was alllowed. I would've thought that the track had been designated a national or European historic place (or something along those lines).

At any rate, if it were up to me, that map that I posted earlier should be engraved on Bernie's headstone.