82 replies to this topic

[pgj]

I have held the opinion for a long time that any driver tearing his car to bits with a punctured tyre and leaving 'punctures' all over the track should be black-flagged and be given a grid penalty.

I am not having a go at RBR here, but isn't it dangerous to have a car on track with brakes that are in danger of failing? I am not thinking so much about drivers here but marshals and spectators. It was a brilliant piece of driving by Seb to get the car home. The problem would not have come to light if it was not for car-to-pit radio. It still struck me as a very dangerous thing to do.

Should something be done to prevent this from happening again or are things ok as they are?

[MikeTekRacing]

I also found it wierd to let a driver for 5-6 laps drive at around 300km/h and tell him be careful, you're brakes are just about to fail...
I mean problems can appear anytime, obviously it's a dangerous sport, but knowingly drive around with brakes failing looked too dangerous for me

[korzeniow]

Did Vettel was fighting for position with somebody? Or did he held up other drivers behind him?

He took risk to take car to the finish and it was good call and great performance.

Edited by korzeniow, 10 May 2010 - 14:26.

[Augurk]

I agree. It was a very dangerous situation. Even if he did drive extremely careful and released throttle early enough to take on the corners without braking, he wouldn't have been able to brake to avoid another car or any other obstacle.

[rolf123]

When he mentioned in the PC, I thought that was a boo-boo.

Remember all the fallout from Renault letting an unsafe car out.

And here, it turns out that he was told to come in and retire but he chose to stay out to get some points.

So I say Vettel should be penalised. Should also spice up the WDC a bit more too!

[Dragonfly]

Vettel finished, Lewis had no indications about a failure, but crashed.
Will you all please stop whining on every occasion about over exaggerated safety?

[MikeTekRacing]

Did Vettel was fighting for position with somebody? Or did he held up other drivers behind him?

He took risk to take car to the finish and it was good call and great performance.

yes he was fighting for position but not directly. there war cars around him
he took the risk, that's fine, but he took a risk for the others also..

[MikeTekRacing]

Vettel finished, Lewis had no indications about a failure, but crashed.
Will you all please stop whining on every occasion about over exaggerated safety?

you just prove my point actually.
accidents can happen, anytime
as rolf said, remember what happened to renault for an unsafe release from pits...and yes, that was deserved.
but here, going in circles without brakes is dangerous. it was not a car stuck in 2nd gear, or having an engine about to go off.

what about next time? be careful seb, your steering is about to go, don't drive too fast...

[Gilles4Ever]

How many times have we seen cars spew brake dust every time a driver hits the pedal at the end of the race? Should they be forced to retire? A driver whose tyres are marginal? A sick engine thats about to grenade? They can all fail at any time and possibly cause big accidents. Part of racing is nursing a damaged car to the line, as long as there arent bits falling off and it's all in one piece surely its up to the team/driver to weigh up the risks and decide on a course of action?

[korzeniow]

yes he was fighting for position but not directly. there war cars around him
he took the risk, that's fine, but he took a risk for the others also..

He wasn't fighting for position because all were almost settled. He had very big gap to the Schumacher.

He was risking only to end on gravel, he wasn't risk to the others.

[kdg]

I don't think he used the brakes much on last laps, just getting off throttle early and using engine braking. There's no definite way to prove how risky it's to drive the car at given time. Teams could just use some code talk to mask the serious brake issues or anything else if needed. Everyone working in motorsports should recognize the risks, and I think the cars itself are very safe now. It should be the team and driver deciding what to do on case by case basis. Mclaren pull out Hamilton last season (not in the hunt for WCC), now RBR decided to bring the car home and get a decent points finish. It was only handfull of laps left anyway.

Edit: If RBR really wanted to bring him in, well then Vettel made a call there for himself. Maybe he wasn't using the brakes so he knew he would finish, or just didn't see point retiring so close to end of race. I don't think drivers think much of the risk when on race mode.

Edited by kdg, 10 May 2010 - 14:39.

[LuisPena]

Vettel finished, Lewis had no indications about a failure, but crashed.
Will you all please stop whining on every occasion about over exaggerated safety?

Thanks GOD a smart one..this guys look like our mom's...everything is dangerous...is racing not a easy ride to school!!!!!

[pgj]

We have all seen cars getting launched into the air. Coming up behind a back-marker is running that risk if the brakes fail.

[otoelpiloto]

the picture is pretty clear to me

vettel always gets a slap on the wrist,
made fastest lap on practice under yellow flags and nobody said anything
bernie has publicly declared his love for vettel, did it again last sunday on bbc to brundle, hence FIA benefits his owner desires
alonso was discualified last year because of tyre issue, but vettel can keep lapping without braking that there's no risk
no matter what this guy does, always will run away unpunished

maFIA stinks

[fed up]

It was a very emphatic statement:

"Your brakes are about to fail!"

Why the car wasn't retired, black flagged or what have you, was a mystery to me.

If the team had advised him to manage the brakes, fine, but to say they are about to fail and not retire the driver is very reckless IMO.

[SchumiBoy]

It was a very emphatic statement:

"Your brakes are about to fail!"

Why the car wasn't retired, black flagged or what have you, was a mystery to me.

If the team had advised him to manage the brakes, fine, but to say they are about to fail and not retire the driver is very reckless IMO.

And if you make it a rule the only thing that changes is the words they would use on the team radio

[seahawk]

Vettel should get a 10 place penalty for the next race, for unsafe driving. That would be the best option and would destroy his chances in Monaco.

[Slowinfastout]

They told him to slow down and kept him updated... good enough for me..

Can't believe some of you would want the referee to get involved in this... if you prefer a sport of judges I'd suggest figure skating or something..

Edited by Slowinfastout, 10 May 2010 - 14:58.

[fed up]

And if you make it a rule the only thing that changes is the words they would use on the team radio

I would prefer to hear coded words, lies, anything, just not what was actually broadcast. I couldn't help but worry that he was about to have a massive off and couldn't understand why he was allowed to endanger the other drivers, track officials and spectators.

F1 confuses me sometimes

[Dragonfly]

I would prefer to hear coded words, lies, anything, just not what was actually broadcast. I couldn't help but worry that he was about to have a massive off and couldn't understand why he was allowed to endanger the other drivers, track officials and spectators.

F1 confuses me sometimes

And half the province of Cataluna, not to mention the weak-hearted TV viewers

[Garagiste]

I can sort of see both sides of this argument. SV amended his driving, backing off and shifting down way earlier which preseved whatever was left of the brakes. The team were constantly telling him to slow down, so I can't really see that backmarkers or whatever were put in any danger. What is a worry is what if something truly unexpected happened, like a Neil Horan situation. If there had been an accident, Red Bull would have hell to pay.
Ultimately it would appear that it's fine as long as you don't cause or aggravate an incident, and it's negligence or wilful endagerment if you do.
Not ideal perhaps, but we know from Hamilton's message yesterday that Charlie monitors the radio messages - if he had an issue he could have thrown the doughnut.

[Polle]

Taking risks, even if It may result in a crash or injury is apart of F1, and always has been. What is more interesting to the viewer. A driver trying to aid his car to the finish and portentially crashing out, or an off track penalty/ black flagged and must return to the pits? No one likes injuries but this is too far. You're trying taking what excitement is left and I don't like it one bit. The drivers behind the wheel should be the ones making the calls. They're the one driving the cars. Not the man infront of a screen analysing data, telling them to slow down. Risks is one of the things what makes F1 exciting, or atleast interesting.

[BenettonB192]

People if you hate motorsport just stop watching.

[fed up]

There is a big difference in drivers taking risks, like Alonso driving rudder less or having to down shift his gearbox. But when a team makes a clear statement that brakes are about to fail, the only risk is the severity of the accident that is about to happen. I really cant see how one can drive round an imminent brake failure problem.

Perhaps RBR were guilty of exaggeration by making that statement, but I don't see it as bravery in carrying on in spite of the warning.

Perhaps I'm getting soft in my old age

[DLaw]

I have held the opinion for a long time that any driver tearing his car to bits with a punctured tyre and leaving 'punctures' all over the track should be black-flagged and be given a grid penalty.

I am not having a go at RBR here, but isn't it dangerous to have a car on track with brakes that are in danger of failing? I am not thinking so much about drivers here but marshals and spectators. It was a brilliant piece of driving by Seb to get the car home. The problem would not have come to light if it was not for car-to-pit radio. It still struck me as a very dangerous thing to do.

Should something be done to prevent this from happening again or are things ok as they are?

O Dear......next thing you want to do is to ban racing........

[HMV]

O Dear......next thing you want to do is to ban racing........

It's all fun and game until someone bins it into the wall at 250kmph, right?

There can be no rule for this kind of situations and it will always be a per case call. Seb drove it home and he's a hero. Had he binned it, he and the whole team would be rightfully called morons and would probably face further consequences.

That's F1 for us.

[primer]

It was a very emphatic statement:

"Your brakes are about to fail!"

Why the car wasn't retired, black flagged or what have you, was a mystery to me.

You must have missed the onboards which showed that Seb had dramatically reduced the usage of his brakes, and relying on engine braking to slow the car down. If anything, FIA has over-reacted in the past thanks to Massa incident, you have to allow the teams to take certain risks. It would be nice to have some consistency in their judgement.

Let's not forget if the driver is not feeling comfortable he can always pull over, he is the one in control of the car and his own safety.

It's all fun and game until someone bins it into the wall at 250kmph, right?

There can be no rule for this kind of situations and it will always be a per case call. Seb drove it home and he's a hero. Had he binned it, he and the whole team would be rightfully called morons and would probably face further consequences.

That's F1 for us.

So true.

Edited by primer, 10 May 2010 - 15:28.

[Hairpin]

How about the trashed front wing Massa drove around with? Ok, might not be as heavy as a spring, but it could potentially take a long flight and end up anywhere. Shredded carbon fibre things can be quite sharp. So what is worse - exposing your own driver for danger, and warn him about it, or expose others, audience, track workers and other drivers, for danger?

No penalty. The teams must self be able to judge the danger. I think Red Bull do cherish the life of Sebastian Vettel more than a few championship points.

Edited by Hairpin, 10 May 2010 - 15:29.

[MikeTekRacing]

He wasn't fighting for position because all were almost settled. He had very big gap to the Schumacher.

He was risking only to end on gravel, he wasn't risk to the others.

if he found a car spun in front of him with no brakes he was risking that guy also

sorry, I feel bad for the problems vettel has had this year but that should not be the case.

I repeat, any car can fail, at any time
to continue racing when the team tells you "brakes are just about to fail" is stupid. it's playing chances with death


why do we have the black and orange flag then??

[Raziel]

I have held the opinion for a long time that any driver tearing his car to bits with a punctured tyre and leaving 'punctures' all over the track should be black-flagged and be given a grid penalty.

You´re kidding right?

[CSquared]

Vettel's car posed the least danger of any car on the track because he was going so slowly. Look what happened to Hamilton's healthy car at speed.

I say again:

[BenettonB192]

why do we have the black and orange flag then??

Did he got them? no.
Also the team told him he can try to bring 1 or 2 points home. So it all seems way less dramatic to me then some people make it now.

There was no black smoke and dust coming from the brake which is a sign that it will soon explode. The brake was just a little damaged as we know now.

Edited by BenettonB192, 10 May 2010 - 15:42.

[MikeTekRacing]

Did he got them? no.

obviously no.
but he should have
why was he given a penalty last yaer for driving half of a lap slowly on 3 wheels?

the brake was just a little damaged as we know now.

tiny bit of damage "they're about to go off"

CSquared, you can as much as you like.
you're missing the point

[CoolFiltered]

I hope the OP was wearing a safety harness when initiating this thread, and also hope that the OP has taken every precaution regarding RSI.

As mentioned, Massa's end plate was insecure for a good portion of the race, should he have been forced to pit ?.

I dont know how much the bias setting can relieve the pressure on the fronts and redirect it to the rear but Vettel bought the car home safely and without incident.

[Clatter]

You do have to wonder though what the FIA reaction would be if there had of been an accident. Would they punish the team for having a knowingly unsafe car on track? or have they left themselves open by allowing an unsafe car to continue?

[BenettonB192]

obviously no.
but he should have

And why exactly? The car and his driving didn't looked dangerous. On what grounds would the stewarts take him out of the race? Just because something "could" happen? Something could happen all the time...

Don't be such a wuss. This is racing not a coffee party.

[Rubens Hakkamacher]

I don't see an issue, since he obviously took precautions.

On the other hand, when Raikkonen's tire was self-destructing at... Spa? they let him drive around in an obviously dangerous condition.

On the other hand, Vettle pushing Hamilton over in the pits was a much more dangerous thing IMO...

[Hairpin]

You do have to wonder though what the FIA reaction would be if there had of been an accident. Would they punish the team for having a knowingly unsafe car on track? or have they left themselves open by allowing an unsafe car to continue?

And had they behaved differently in US? Thinking about Indygate, I do.

[bourbon]

There are safety rules in place. That is all you get. If you can't take the thrill of Motorsport of this kind, you need to find something else to watch. Seriously - it is not for the weak of heart. Drivers die all the time. We lost two drivers two weeks ago and two motorcycle riders the week after that. That is why they call the sport "death defying" and why the riders/drivers get paid so much (something fans then go on to complain about - how they are overpaid, pfft, make up your mind). F1ers have been spoiled because we have not had a death for a long while in the main show, but safety rules don't ensure against it in the least - just ask John Surtees.

But that aside, all the drivers remain out in dicey situations. There are so many incidents of this, I am having a hard time believing this thread was even created. Lewis shouldn't have been out (issue he radioed in), Webber shouldn't have been out (serious issue with rear right); in other races this year, Rosberg and Button both podiumed by staying out instead of a tire change; but that goes the other way at times, remember Mika, Kimi, Hill - and that's just off the tip top of my memory. The serious issues that require a driver to retire are rules - if it isn't incorporated then drivers clearly feel that it can be dealt with. Seb was the man - that was awesome driving at the end. And just as an aside - taking this thought to its logical finish, we'd have to clear the track of the virgin, lotus and hrt drivers, minimally, as they are a danger just being on track - just ask hamilton, lmao.

Edited by bourbon, 10 May 2010 - 16:29.

[Hippo]

Aww come on! Motorracing is dangerous. What are you guys gonna request next? No more standing starts, because someone could fail to launch and someone else could crash into him? No more driving >65 mph, because the faster they are the more dangerous it is? If you cannot stand a moderate risk of accident motorracing is definitely the wrong sport to follow. If you want absolute safety go watch chess or something...

[Hairpin]

Let's pretend Charlie had blackflagged him. After the race RBR conclude the brakes were actually quite ok, it as just a sensor that had taken damage. Later Vettel loses out for the WDC by 4 points...

[Gridfire]

I'm no Vettel fan, but I figure what happened was all fair. Redbull and Vettel chose to accept the risk of catastrophic failure since they were in the last stretch of the race. The chances of them injuring someone else was pretty low considering Vettel had slowed right down, was nowhere near anyone else on his pace, and the opportunity for points from coasting to the end was far too great. If it had been anywhere before about lap 45, they maybe should have retired but otherwise they had a huge margin to Schumacher providing them with the space to coast to good points. Even if the brake had suddenly disintergrated, at the reduced speeds Vettel was travelling at he would have just ended in the gravel or a tyre barrier and not much else.

I agree with a lot of others here - all the cotton-wool safety measures in the world today make it a less fun place to be...

Edited by Gridfire, 10 May 2010 - 16:24.

[Clatter]

Let's pretend Charlie had blackflagged him. After the race RBR conclude the brakes were actually quite ok, it as just a sensor that had taken damage. Later Vettel loses out for the WDC by 4 points...

But we know that they inspected the brakes when he stopped for the wobbly wheel and found damage. From the nature of their radio messages I don't think anyone would have blamed Charlie if he had of black flagged him.

[Hairpin]

But we know that they inspected the brakes when he stopped for the wobbly wheel and found damage. From the nature of their radio messages I don't think anyone would have blamed Charlie if he had of black flagged him.

We are pretending Anyway, from such brief inspection it is impossible to make a perfect analysis. But the one they made seem to have been quite good, don't you think?

[Clatter]

Vettel's car posed the least danger of any car on the track because he was going so slowly. Look what happened to Hamilton's healthy car at speed.

I say again:

Going so slowly. I hope you are kidding. He was losing just a few seconds per lap, and you don't do that by driving slowly.

[Clatter]

We are pretending Anyway, from such brief inspection it is impossible to make a perfect analysis. But the one they made seem to have been quite good, don't you think?

There is a very fine line between success and failure. On the one-hand I think the should be allowed to take the risks, but on the other I think they could leave themselves and the sport open if they continue racing when they know there is an issue, and there cannot be any doubt that they were worried.

[Hairpin]

There is a very fine line between success and failure. On the one-hand I think the should be allowed to take the risks, but on the other I think they could leave themselves and the sport open if they continue racing when they know there is an issue, and there cannot be any doubt that they were worried.

Maybe the team radio should be banned? Then neither we or Charlie would have needed to worry during the race.

[Tolyngee]

you just prove my point actually.
accidents can happen, anytime
as rolf said, remember what happened to renault for an unsafe release from pits...and yes, that was deserved.
but here, going in circles without brakes is dangerous. it was not a car stuck in 2nd gear, or having an engine about to go off.

what about next time? be careful seb, your steering is about to go, don't drive too fast...

You should park it immediately if an engine failure is imminent...

Edited by Tolyngee, 10 May 2010 - 16:53.

[stevvy1986]

obviously no.
but he should have
why was he given a penalty last yaer for driving half of a lap slowly on 3 wheels?

He wasn't. He was given a grid penalty for the collision. Red Bull were fined for telling him to stay on track with 3 wheels.

[JPW]

But we know that they inspected the brakes when he stopped for the wobbly wheel and found damage. From the nature of their radio messages I don't think anyone would have blamed Charlie if he had of black flagged him.

Dream on, not in a million years Whiting was going to interfere and all hell would have broke loose if he had done so.

There has been a similar situation in 2005 with Kimi in a macca with a flatspotted tyre that was clearly going to destroy the suspension, Ronzo let him continue, he crashed, end of story.