82 replies to this topic

[stevvy1986]

No need to black flag him. A black and orange flag maybe, but a black flag? No need for that whatsoever in my opinion. You can't exactly put out the black flag and disqualify someone just because they were being told that their brakes were very marginal with 7/8 laps to go. The black flag is used for a blatant flouting of the rules (eg leaving the pits when the red light shows, etc). A black and orange flag was the maximum that was required, to tell him to pit and get it checked out or whatever. To have black flagged him would likely result in any driver who's engine was about to explode, who had some sort of damage/problem that was very hit and miss as to whether it'd last or not, being black flagged as well if they carried on rather than pulling off.

Edited by stevvy1986, 10 May 2010 - 17:07.

[HP]

Different teams, different decision.

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/79941

That said, the situations aren't fully comparable. Still McLaren decided to retire Hamilton from that Abu Dhabi race, even though it could have cost them a position in the WDC and WCC.

Edited by HP, 10 May 2010 - 19:33.

[korzeniow]

Different teams, different decision.

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/79941

That said, the situations aren't fully comparable. Still McLaren decided to retire Hamilton from that Abu Dhabi race, even though it could have cost them a position in the WDC and WCC.

It is a lot diffrent when you have 6 and 35 laps to go....

[FerrariF1Fan]

He wasn't fighting for position because all were almost settled. He had very big gap to the Schumacher.

He was risking only to end on gravel, he wasn't risk to the others.

Exactly.
Plus he was driving in accordance with his problem, which is much safer than what happens when someone is going all out and something suddenly fails.

[HP]

It is a lot diffrent when you have 6 and 35 laps to go....

The ;eft front brake on Vettel's RBR let go 15 laps before the end, which was almost a quarter of the race.

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/83500

I'm not saying the decision was wrong, but they still have to consider a total brake failure. Had Vettel crashed out, SC car might had to be called in. That would have put Hamilton right behind Webber, and possibly the failure on the rim/tire would not have occurred on the McLaren. Never mind of Vettel clattering somewhere into the wall without brakes.

What I'm trying to point out is that it's not just a matter of let him race anyway, because it's the manly/right thing to do.

Edited by HP, 10 May 2010 - 19:57.

[MikeTekRacing]

We are pretending Anyway, from such brief inspection it is impossible to make a perfect analysis. But the one they made seem to have been quite good, don't you think?

nope, the one they made said his brakes were about to fail
did they?

[MikeTekRacing]

The brakes on Vettel's RBR let go 15 laps before the end, which was almost a quarter of the race.

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/83500

I'm not saying the decision was wrong, but they still have to consider a total brake failure. Had Vettel crashed out, SC car might had to be called in. That would have put Hamilton right behind Webber, and possibly the failure on the rim/tire would not have occurred at the McLaren. Nevber mind of Vettel clattering somewhere into the wall without brakes.

What I'm trying to point out is that it's not just a matter of let him race anyway, because it's the manly/right thing to do.

finally somebody with a sensible post...

[Hairpin]

nope, the one they made said his brakes were about to fail
did they?

Did they fail?

[jee]

Barcelona only got one hard braking zone and that is at the end of the back straight. The rest of the circuit, expect the chicane, can easily be driven with an f1 car without braking. Abu Dhabi on the other hand got a few hard braking zones, as all the new tilke tracks. At most of the other circuits Vettel would have been out of the race.

[MikeTekRacing]

Did they fail?

they didn't and said they will fail...

[bourbon]

Yes but failure in the one situation meant almost certain complete loss of control - the other was a controlable situation because Vettel understood he had to go slow enough to be able to control the car without the use of brakes if necessary, which is completely possible to do. We still don't know the situation in its entirety, but Sebastian didn't insist that he was going to defy the team, he asked if he could and remained out, so I assume that means he was given the okay in the end. It is possible that is not the case and Horner braised him over a spit fire afterward, but it didn't appear Sebastian blatantly disobeyed an order or anything.

Edited by bourbon, 10 May 2010 - 20:08.

[Hairpin]

they didn't and said they will fail...

"if". They said he had to go slower, otherwise they would fail. He went slower, the brakes held up enough to give him a podium. I see no problem. Vettel reported a problem, they investigated it and sent him out again. From what they had seen, from the data theu got from the car, they helped Vettel bring the car home. Perfect team work IMO and two drivers on the podium.

I saw many things on Sunday that could have been dangerous IF.

[ryan86]

You should park it immediately if an engine failure is imminent...

I don't know whether BAR knew the engine was a goner, but I remember DC winning two years previous with his spewing smoke in the early laps. That cleared itself eventually.

[SchumiBoy]

The ;eft front brake on Vettel's RBR let go 15 laps before the end, which was almost a quarter of the race.

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/83500

I'm not saying the decision was wrong, but they still have to consider a total brake failure. Had Vettel crashed out, SC car might had to be called in. That would have put Hamilton right behind Webber, and possibly the failure on the rim/tire would not have occurred on the McLaren. Never mind of Vettel clattering somewhere into the wall without brakes.

What I'm trying to point out is that it's not just a matter of let him race anyway, because it's the manly/right thing to do.

You could see on the onscreen telemetry how he was driving the car. Pumping the brakes way before the corners just to make sure he could get slowed down

[AvranaKern]

I don't see any problem Vettel continuing his race. This was the risk he had to take as othwerise he would have been hurt with possible point loss. It was dangerous to continue with a brake failure but he said he still had three brakes plus engine braking plus he had a huge gap to Schumacher which meant he never had to push at any time. He was cruising and Circuit de Catalunya doesn't include critical braking spots. I think it was not that risky 'cause he knew the failure. He knew how to react unlike Buemi in China and Hamilton in Spain. They never had a chance to prevent them from happening, but Vettel did and he rightly did so. I praise his effort as this 15 points will be very very crucial in this quest.

Edited by ali.ünal, 10 May 2010 - 20:06.

[postajegenye]

What I found strange was that Vettel carried on with almost normal speed even when he was told about the problem, he was only about 1.5-2 seconds off the best lap times - and he was about 20 seconds behind Alonso and 20 seconds ahead of so Schumacher and he had no reason to push.

[Ellios]

Barcelona only got one hard braking zone and that is at the end of the back straight. The rest of the circuit, expect the chicane, can easily be driven with an f1 car without braking. Abu Dhabi on the other hand got a few hard braking zones, as all the new tilke tracks. At most of the other circuits Vettel would have been out of the race.

agreed this is as much about the track as it is about failing brakes - anywhere else and they would have retired him, or done a Webber and spun it out (Singapore style). The same track Schumacher drove around in fifth gear for most of the race.

where is the thrill or the danger in this track to warrant bringing him in? same problem seven days later and the decision will be made for them

as long as he is traveling at a reasonable race pace (which he was) I don't see any problem

Edited by Ellios, 10 May 2010 - 20:11.

[bourbon]

He did eventually slow down, he ended up only 8 seconds ahead of Schumi by the end. Admittedly he frightened the engineer at first, I don't know how else to interpret the emotion in that radio voice, lol. But from Sebastian's point of view, I believe he felt he had it under control. The circuit doesn't require braking as much as others and he'd already completed 3/4 race, so he knew what he was up against.

[SvenF1]

yes he was fighting for position but not directly. there war cars around him
he took the risk, that's fine, but he took a risk for the others also..

So, do you feel Felipe should have been black flagged also for driving with an obviously dangerous front wing? A piece could have broken off and sliced someone.

[Willow Rosenberg]

There is a big difference in drivers taking risks, like Alonso driving rudder less or having to down shift his gearbox. But when a team makes a clear statement that brakes are about to fail, the only risk is the severity of the accident that is about to happen. I really cant see how one can drive round an imminent brake failure problem.

Perhaps RBR were guilty of exaggeration by making that statement, but I don't see it as bravery in carrying on in spite of the warning.

Perhaps I'm getting soft in my old age

You just did.

[Disgrace]

People if you hate motorsport just stop watching.

Incredible once we get lenient, fair stewarding with the help of F1 drivers who know more than all of us posters and the other stewards combined, people want to see draconian penalties?

I cannot believe you are actually F1 fans.

Let them drive, or you can put a shroud of fear over everyone who dares so much as to make a mistake.

Vettel and his team were in complete control, as you saw with the radio transmissions. Driving without brakes for some laps is not something unprecedented: remember Mika Hakkinen in 1998? His brakes actually failed at Monza of all places and he kept going to finish fifth or sixth.

I can't believe what I'm reading here...

Edited by Disgrace, 10 May 2010 - 20:37.

[Mandzipop]

He was obviously confident enough to continue with it and felt he could manage the situation. Because he was aware that there was an issue he would have been more prepared than if something had gone wrong without prior warning. As it has been pointed out by a couple of people that a lot of drivers wouldn't have taken the risk and would have retired. Kudos to him for having the guts to go for it and do it brilliantly.

At this rate Vettel will be the expert of the grid of how to nurse home a very sick car into the points. This is the second time this season he has had to do it. He is lucky that the car is fast enough to give him the cushion to be able to do it and stay in the points.

[Zippel]

You do have to wonder though what the FIA reaction would be if there had of been an accident. Would they punish the team for having a knowingly unsafe car on track? or have they left themselves open by allowing an unsafe car to continue?

Near the end of the 2001 Canadian GP, Jos Verstappen's Arrows obviously had serious brake problems with the amount of carbon spewing out of them braking into corners. He ended up crashing out. No one cared.

Edited by Zippel, 11 May 2010 - 00:28.

[Andrew Hope]

Racing is dangerous. No one wakes up from a coma to find themselves screaming along the front straight strapped into an F1 car, you know the risks involved and, quite bluntly, if you're hurt, tough ****. No one is making you race and there are a million other people that would give their left nut to do what F1 drivers do, so if you can't handle it, too bad.

[Henrytheeigth]

Racing is dangerous. No one wakes up from a coma to find themselves screaming along the front straight strapped into an F1 car, you know the risks involved and, quite bluntly, if you're hurt, tough ****. No one is making you race and there are a million other people that would give their left nut to do what F1 drivers do, so if you can't handle it, too bad.

Not to mention the drivers get paid so much, risk is not only part of the game, but should be expected! I just hate it more when the marshalls and spectators get hurt....

[Andrew Hope]

Of course there's a line with this sort of thing, but the line with motor sports is so fine. Of course it's tragic when a driver dies, and even more so a spectator or a marshal, but at the end of the day, racing is dangerous for all involved and however unpleasant that truth is, it's a truth nonetheless. I don't buy that racing needs to be 'safer', because that argument never ends, people always want it to be 'safer' 20 years from now, and all that leads to is a sport watered down with the piss of a nanny state.

Edited by andrew., 11 May 2010 - 07:08.

[H2H]

How many times have we seen cars spew brake dust every time a driver hits the pedal at the end of the race? Should they be forced to retire? A driver whose tyres are marginal? A sick engine thats about to grenade? They can all fail at any time and possibly cause big accidents. Part of racing is nursing a damaged car to the line, as long as there arent bits falling off and it's all in one piece surely its up to the team/driver to weigh up the risks and decide on a course of action?

Perhaps a too sensible post for many. Common guys where do you draw the line? In this specifc case he was in the last laps practically a 100 km/h slower then the rest in the speed trap, breaking with gentle pedal work and the engine brake extremely early after he run wide 1-2 times during the early phase of the fading brakes. He once again nursed his car home and collected a lot of points, while driving his lonely race with no other car in sight...


H2H

[Buttoneer]

There were two incidents in Barcelona which IMO could have been considered for black flag action - the second being Massa's front wing. I think we even heard Smedley say something about it maybe falling off later. That's hardly responsible, is it?

So a bit of carbon fibre, not heavy but maybe sharp. Dangerous? How about a 1kg spring? How about a 620kg F1 car?

F1 IS dangerous - it says so on the ticket - but I don't want to watch these guys die or end their careers in front of me on TV. I'd much rather the game was played with an eye to safety. Sorry if that's not 'manly' enough for some.

[Tolyngee]

Not to mention the drivers get paid so much, risk is not only part of the game, but should be expected! I just hate it more when the marshalls and spectators get hurt....

Are pay drivers completely now a thing of the past?

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Pay_driver

Jackie Stewart disagrees with you anyway...

[mtknot]

All vettel needed to do was to adjust the front wing for max downforce (and drag). You guys do realise that the cars are subject to more than 1G of drag, hence if the driver was to pull off the car would still come to a stop safely. Thats what the virgins have been doing, since they're focusing on saving fuel.

Vettel in the closing laps did barely any disc-braking, it was mostly aero.

EDIT: theres no engine braking permitted these days...

Edited by mtknot, 12 May 2010 - 04:34.

[Hairpin]

All vettel needed to do was to adjust the front wing for max downforce (and drag). You guys do realise that the cars are subject to more than 1G of drag, hence if the driver was to pull off the car would still come to a stop safely. Thats what the virgins have been doing, since they're focusing on saving fuel.

Vettel in the closing laps did barely any disc-braking, it was mostly aero.

EDIT: theres no engine braking permitted these days...

The front wing produces almost no drag at all. They are not allowed to change more than a couple of times a lap also. Engine braking is of course allowed, but it is not allowed to use the engine as a ABS.

[Clatter]

All vettel needed to do was to adjust the front wing for max downforce (and drag). You guys do realise that the cars are subject to more than 1G of drag, hence if the driver was to pull off the car would still come to a stop safely. Thats what the virgins have been doing, since they're focusing on saving fuel.

Vettel in the closing laps did barely any disc-braking, it was mostly aero.

EDIT: theres no engine braking permitted these days...

Apart from anything else you are clearly ignoring the fact that Vettels adjustable wing stopped working early in the race, so he had no adjustment to make.

[fed up]

Vettel revealed afterwards that they called him in to retire on safety grounds, reasoning that they couldn't let Seb continue knowing he had a brake problem that could see him suffer a nasty accident.

But by electing to stay out and go for whatever points could be gained, Vettel effectively relieved the team of their responsibility and took the risk into his own hands. Brave.

Ted Kravitz


http://news.bbc.co.u...one/8674691.stm