105 replies to this topic

[Nustang70]

I've been thinking about drives that calibrated people's perceptions of a driver; drives that established a reputation or set a career down a certain path. A few that came to mind:

1. Vettel's win at Monza in 2008 in the Toro Rosso. Everyone really pegged him for greatness after that.

2. Schumacher's qualifying at his first race at Spa. He was an immediate superstar.

3. Trulli's failure to maintain third place in France in 2004. He was having a great season up to that point, arguably giving on par with Alonso. But Flavio became furious with him in France, and Trulli wasn't the same driver for the rest of the season. Whether it was such a crisis of confidence or actual Flavio machinations, Trulli's performance thereafter slumped (though he grabbed a pole at Spa later that year, iirc), and his chance to be considered one of the best was gone.

4. Webber's first race with Stoddard's Minardi in Australia. He seemed to be Stoddard's next big find after Alonso, and the points at his and Stoddard's home race (and first points for Minardi in quite a while) endeared them to the public as plucky fighters, I believe.

5. Kobayashi's drive in Abu Dhabi last year. People were wowed by his banzai approach at Brazil, but his solid drive for points in Abu Dhabi created a hype around him that earned him a spot on the grid this year.

Edited by Nustang70, 12 May 2010 - 13:43.

[stonebutter]

Hamilton - Silverstone 2008. The man put on a clinic.

[LukeM]

Hakkinen - 1997 Jerez : Finally got the win monkey off his back which gave him huge confidence and the rest is history

[byrkus]

Alesi, Phoenix 1990.

[pgj]

Mansell - Brands Hatch - European GP 1986

[RedBaron]

Hakkinen - 1997 Jerez : Finally got the win monkey off his back which gave him huge confidence and the rest is history

He was handed that win by Williams, then Coulthard. There must be another victory that shows up better (not his second win, that was handed to him also as a result of a bet).

[CSquared]

He was handed that win by Williams, then Coulthard. There must be another victory that shows up better (not his second win, that was handed to him also as a result of a bet).

Portugal 1993 made a big impression with a lot of people: Mika out-qualifying Senna his first time in a Mclaren.

Some obvious ones:
Senna, Monaco 1984.
Lauda, Monaco 1973. His career would have gone much differently without that race.

[scheivlak]

3. Trulli's failure to maintain third place in France in 2003. He was having a great season up to that point, arguably giving on par with Alonso. But Flavio became furious with him in France, and Trulli wasn't the same driver for the rest of the season. Whether it was such a crisis of confidence or actual Flavio machinations, Trulli's performance thereafter slumped (though he grabbed a pole at Spa later that year, iirc), and his chance to be considered one of the best was gone.

That was in 2004.
Nice thread BTW!

[Jazza]

I guess then for Mika it would be Europe 98. After the Ferrari front row, and being equal on points, I think most people had already handed MS the championship. Especially after the first dozen laps or so.

[scheivlak]

Hamilton - Silverstone 2008. The man put on a clinic.

To me, that was a race that simply confirmed what I've seen before.

The eye-openers (apart from his stellar 2006 GP2 season) were already his first F1 race in Melbourne and -for anyone who doubted- his first F1 win in Montreal.

[LukeM]

He was handed that win by Williams, then Coulthard. There must be another victory that shows up better (not his second win, that was handed to him also as a result of a bet).

You gotta factor in that DC pretty much whooped Hakkinen that year in results with 2 wins. Hakkinen was handed that win but it was something of a mental barrier he broke, after that he knew he could "win". I do alot of sport (including karting) and its odd how you gain a natural confidence after you realize you can do it.

[Bloggsworth]

Fangio at the Nurburgring in 1956

Stirling Moss Monaco 1961

Stirling Moss Nurburgring 1961

Jim Clark 1966 winning the US GP in the Lotus powered by the H16 BRM monstrosity

Jim Clark 1967 Monza - went a lap down owing to a puncture, charged through the field to regain the lead, only to be foiled by a faulty fuel pump.

[Captain Tightpants]

Button in Australia 2009 for obvious reasons. Turkey as well, given that Ross Brawn said that it was a perfect drive.

[Lights]

Button in Australia 2009 for obvious reasons. Turkey as well, given that Ross Brawn said that it was a perfect drive.

How did those 'define' Button? Other than most mentioned drivers in this topic, you're talking about his 10th season in F1.

[Captain Tightpants]

How did those 'define' Button? Other than most mentioned drivers in this topic, you're talking about his 10th season in F1.

Because it marked the second phase of his career; Australia 2009 presented a very different Jenson Button to the world. He was always a bit of a playboy to begin with, and while flashes of inspiration showed through occasionally - most notably in 2004 - it wasn't until 2009 that Button really came of age. As for the Turkish race, it was Brawn's testimony that really showed through given that Brawn had such a close relationship with Schumacher for his run of championships.

[Tenmantaylor]

Lewis' debut Australia 07. Qual 4th, up to 2nd after first corner passing Alonso and Heidfeld then only just losing out to the reigning 2 x WDC in the race and finish on the podium.

[Buttoneer]

I don't see why a 'definitive' race has to be one where a driver wins, but where he shows his true colours. In that regard, you'd have to put a couple of Hamilton's drives this year into the mix and Button's Aussie drive is genuinely right up there for him. It's where we could see what he was all about.

Alonso has to be Hungary 2003, watching him lap Schumacher while romping to a fantastic victory.

[scheivlak]

JP Montoya, Brazil 2001 - that pass at the first corner after the safety car disappeared.

Gerhard Berger's first GP win in Mexico, 1986. One could guess he could wrap up a podium sooner or later by then, but it was a pretty commanding win IIRC.

[Lights]

Because it marked the second phase of his career; Australia 2009 presented a very different Jenson Button to the world. He was always a bit of a playboy to begin with, and while flashes of inspiration showed through occasionally - most notably in 2004 - it wasn't until 2009 that Button really came of age. As for the Turkish race, it was Brawn's testimony that really showed through given that Brawn had such a close relationship with Schumacher for his run of championships.

You're right on that, but as you say, it marked the second phase. What about the 9 years before that?

[Lights]

I don't see why a 'definitive' race has to be one where a driver wins, but where he shows his true colours. In that regard, you'd have to put a couple of Hamilton's drives this year into the mix and Button's Aussie drive is genuinely right up there for him. It's where we could see what he was all about.

I agree, it doesn't necessarily have to be a race where the driver wins. Neither one that's purely positive.

Australia 2010 is a pretty defining race for Button indeed.

[Atreiu]

Montoya's defining race was Australia 2003. Missed opportunities, lots of unleashed talent.

For Schumacher I'd rather point out two races in 1994. Jerez and Australia. At Jerez he came back form the suspension and just trashed everyone. And then at Australia we saw how far he'd go to win. That was Schumacher, fast and ruthless.

[Tenmantaylor]

Could argue Webber's début in the points at his home race Aus 02 in the dog slow Minardi defined his career.

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 12 May 2010 - 11:19.

[korzeniow]

Kubica definatelly in Canada, both in 2007 and 2008 - two turning places of his career.

[Lights]

I'd say Malaysia 2004 defines Webber's career. Put a Jaguar on the front row, had a horrible start, damaged his tyre fighting back, had to drive a lap on 3 wheels, then spun off a couple of laps later, got stuck in the gravel and was classified last.

[Slowinfastout]

Kubica definatelly in Canada, both in 2007 and 2008 - two turning places of his career.

Agreed, good choices.

[sopa]

Alonso - Malaysia 2003. Until then it wasn't clear whether he was hyped or just a good driver, but he took pole and Renault's first podium in modern era. All that with 38.5 fever.
Kubica - Italy 2006. Like Alonso, he confirmed the signs of magnificence that had seemed to be there before.
Alesi - Japan 1995. Crazyness in driving, wet weather brilliance, heartbreaking unluck with reliability - all things that defined his career presented in one GP.
Coulthard - Australia 1998. McLaren had finally a top car. If DC was ever going to win the title, it was time to start delivering. But he moved over...
Fisichella - Europe 1999. So much promise and pace, but nerves let down in the most crucial moment.
Trulli - Monaco 2004. He won it, but the relationship with Flav went quickly downhill after the win. As a result despite moving on to more wins, he was forced to move on and stagnate in another team in midfield.
R.Schumacher - Germany 2003. A lot of promise, had just had two wins on the trot, a world championship in sight, a front row start on the grid. But - an immediate crash. After that his season and the rest of the career went downhill.
Barrichello - Austria 2002, obvious.
Massa - Hungary 2008. Sums up probably the best title chance of his career. Close, but not quite there.
Frentzen - Australia 1997. He was supposed to become the biggest rival to MS in the coming years. But was outqualified by 1.7 secs by JV, was unable to beat DC in the race and late in the race the brakes went.
Villeneuve - Australia 1998. After two title assaults he was expected to go on and become a regular top contender for the future. As a fresh world champion he was however lapped in the race on pure pace. Something that was going to be a much more usual sight in the coming years.

[Victor_RO]

Alain Prost - San Marino '85 and Brazil '87.

San Marino '85: he watched his fuel gauge with extreme care while seeing others romp away into the lead, and with 3 laps to go, everybody ahead of him started to conk out with their tanks completely dry. Alain inherited the lead in this manner and crossed the line as the winner, and then promptly conked out on the slowing-down lap, proof of how finely he had cut it. Unfortunately, he was thrown out for the car being marginally underweight (1 or 2 kg), but that's another matter.

Brazil '87: went in the opposite direction on set-up and went for straight-line speed and lower downforce than the other front runners. This, plus his driving style, allowed him to conserve his tires in the appaling heat, and stopped only twice (?) for tires compared to 3-5 stops for his competitors. He won with a lead of over 40 seconds.

[RedBaron]

Portugal 1993 made a big impression with a lot of people: Mika out-qualifying Senna his first time in a Mclaren.

That's quite a good one, like someone said it's doesn't have to be a victory.

[Risil]

Alex Zanardi -- Vancouver 1997. The chargingest of charging drives, repeatedly racing to the front despite having extremely dodgy brakes.
Jacques Villeneuve -- 1994 Indy 500, first among the DOHC entrants in a Rahal-esque drive with what was in no way the best car. The wave of momentum carried him to an improbable CART and F1 title within four years.
Giancarlo Fisichella -- Spa 2001. Arguably he dined out on that performance for years. But 2009 showed it wasn't a one-off.

[MichaelPM]

Alonso - Imola - 2005, So young at that point, overcame all the pressure of first season in a competitive car in the world spotlight, living legend of unparalleled ability on his ass with a much faster car and he wins through flawless text book defence to take the win.
Amazingly tense end to a race.

[Risil]

Eddie Lawson -- 1984 South African Grand Prix. Stepped out of Kenny Roberts's shadow with such ease that by the end of the year, he'd already done enough to be considered the rider of the decade. And in the utterly appalling rain that Kyalami periodically throws up at that time of year, too.

[Tolyngee]

Portugal 1993 made a big impression with a lot of people: Mika out-qualifying Senna his first time in a Mclaren.

I don't understand why. Mika had been doing a ton of testing in the McLaren at Portugal. So putting together one more flying fast lap should pretty much be the expectation, considering it was a car that was built around him at a track that was used to tweak it for him!

He didn't fare anywhere near as well in the race, where it matters.

Michael Andretti and Senna didn't test. It was Mika's car. It was in no way his "first time in a McLaren" in any way whatsoever.

[Disgrace]

3. Trulli's failure to maintain third place in France in 2003. He was having a great season up to that point, arguably giving on par with Alonso. But Flavio became furious with him in France, and Trulli wasn't the same driver for the rest of the season. Whether it was such a crisis of confidence or actual Flavio machinations, Trulli's performance thereafter slumped (though he grabbed a pole at Spa later that year, iirc), and his chance to be considered one of the best was gone.

Yeah, it was 2004 though.

He was not arguably on par with Alonso, he was clearly beating him.

It took six races of Trulli not scoring with him and his confidence issue for Alonso to finally overhaul him in the points. By that point he was already in the Toyota.

Guess he could have been 2005/6 champion, had it all played out perfectly, which it seldom does of course.

Edited by Disgrace, 12 May 2010 - 13:05.

[stonebutter]

Nelson Piquet Jr. - Singapore 2008.

[FigJam]

Villeneuve - Portugal 1996 - showed Schumacher something that would come in handy one year later.

Villeneuve - Canada 2000/Barcelona 1999 - brilliant defensive driving in some of the poorest race cars of that era.

Villeneuve - Spa 98/99 qualy - showed he cared more for taking Eau Rouge flat than anything else, again in average cars. Racers spirit....the speed he carried into it compared to Frentzen in 1998 (telemetry) was mind boggling.

Edited by FIGJAM, 12 May 2010 - 13:30.

[Junfansoto]

Great topic!
I'm surprised someone picked Austria '02 as Barrichello's defining race. IMHO, that race defined something else entirely.
For Rubens, the race would be Hockenheim 2000. In the rain, on slicks all the way - his maiden win and the best drive of his career, I think!

[tkulla]

Button - San Marino 2004

The season started well for Button, but this is where he established himself as a serious, professional driver that can fight at the front. He took his first pole and then gave Schumacher a fight in the race, which was very impressive considering the pace of that year's Ferrari.

[korzeniow]

Nelson Piquet Jr. - Singapore 2008.

[bourbon]

I suppose it depends on the criteria, but I saw the seal the deal (asked and answered) races as:

Raikkonen: Austrailia 2001, Vettel: USA 2007, Rosberg: Brazil 2007, Schumi: Brazil 1992; J Villeneuve: Austrailia 1996; Piquet Jr., Singapore 2008

I agree that Kart/lower level racing was even more definitive in general, but I limited it to F1, I thought that is what the OP was talking about.

Edited by bourbon, 12 May 2010 - 14:02.

[otoelpiloto]

Yeah, it was 2004 though.

He was not arguably on par with Alonso, he was clearly beating him.

It took six races of Trulli not scoring with him and his confidence issue for Alonso to finally overhaul him in the points. By that point he was already in the Toyota.

Guess he could have been 2005/6 champion, had it all played out perfectly, which it seldom does of course.

he was beating alonso only in qualy, in race pace trulli was nowhere near fernando

anyway for fernando the race has to be malaysia 2003, sick and able to do his maiden pole and finish 3rd with clutch problem included, simply amazing

[whitewaterMkII]

For me, it wasn't really just a race that defined a driver for me, but a stunning qualifying lap by a young driver named Montoya.

Detroit, 1999

[F1_conman]

Kubica definatelly in Canada, both in 2007 and 2008 - two turning places of his career.

While these were notable - his defining moment was the 3rd place at Monza in 2006.
3rd race of his career, and a podium in a subpar bmw-sauber.
With that performance folks in the paddock took notice.

His best drive to date has to be Monaco in 2008.

Edited by F1_conman, 12 May 2010 - 15:38.

[George Costanza]

Michael Schumacher: Spain 1994, Monaco 1995, Spa 1995, Spain 1996, Monaco 1997, Spa 1997, Canada 1998, Hungarian 1998, Monza 1998, Monaco 1999, European GP 2000, Japan 2000, Monaco 2001, Malaysia 2001, Spa 2002, British 2002, Imola 2003, Monza 2003, Canadian GP 2003, French 2004, Germany 2006 and China 2006.


That's all for now.

[F1_conman]

forgot to mention my favorite Aussie

Webber - Germany 2009 (talking about having odds against you..., yet he perseveres).

Edited by F1_conman, 12 May 2010 - 14:29.

[George Costanza]

Ayrton Senna had a number of stunning drives.

[George Costanza]

Fangio at the Nurburgring in 1956

Stirling Moss Monaco 1961

Stirling Moss Nurburgring 1961

Jim Clark 1966 winning the US GP in the Lotus powered by the H16 BRM monstrosity

Jim Clark 1967 Monza - went a lap down owing to a puncture, charged through the field to regain the lead, only to be foiled by a faulty fuel pump.

That was in 1957.

[Kooper]

Lewis' debut Australia 07. Qual 4th, up to 2nd after first corner passing Alonso and Heidfeld then only just losing out to the reigning 2 x WDC in the race and finish on the podium.

The first corner said it all, didn't it?

Alonso has to be Hungary 2003, watching him lap Schumacher while romping to a fantastic victory.

I remember this one well. Ferrari blew their tops and straight after we went through the Michelin 'illegal tyre' fiasco.

Alonso also could add Imola 2005 where he proved his mental toughness vs MS.

JP Montoya, Brazil 2001 - that pass at the first corner after the safety car disappeared.

Juan should have beat Jos over the head with a stick!

Great topic!
I'm surprised someone picked Austria '02 as Barrichello's defining race. IMHO, that race defined something else entirely.
For Rubens, the race would be Hockenheim 2000. In the rain, on slicks all the way - his maiden win and the best drive of his career, I think!

Rubens, for me was Hockenheim 2000, Austria '01 & '02 and Silverstone '03.

[BenettonB192]

Schumacher:

Spa 1992, brilliant first win in changing weather conditions
Monza 1992, losing his front wing in the first chicane, fighting back to a podium finish from the last position
Brazil 1994, one of the most dominant wins in F1 history overlapping everybody else who made it to the finish line
Spain 1994, finishing 2nd despite being stuck in 5th gear for most of the race
Silverstone 1994, the race that started his questionable reputation
Spa 1995, win from start position 16
Spain 1996, first win in the Ferrari, one of his great wet races
Silverstone 1999, broke his leg in an accident
Monza 2000, win in front of the Ferrari home crowd, start of the comeback in the championship that secured him his third title

There are many more, some have already been mentioned

[kismet]

Räikkönen: Nürburgring 2005 - nice try but, in the end, not good enough

[Gyan]

While these were notable - his defining moment was the win at Monza in 2006.
3rd race of his career, and a podium in a subpar bmw-sauber.
With that performance folks in the paddock took notice.

His best drive to date has to be Monaco in 2008.

As you said he just finished on a podium,but did not win the race.