41 replies to this topic

[Tenmantaylor]

Its quite hard to believe an F1 spec car are lapping slower than GP2 cars on the same track on the same weekend. Even more amazing when the drivers of these cars went faster themselves in GP2 last year than their F1 laps this year.

Your opinions on what is the main reason please.

Havnt included drivers because Glock, Trulli and Kova are known quantities.

[MichaelPM]

Other

A lacking of refinement and experience in all areas

[MikeTekRacing]

slow? 3sec a lap slower?

I think you forgot the days when minardi (with experience) where regularly +3-4 sec a lap
new teams, new designs, no tests etc

if anything, the fact that they are so close shows how much of a spec formula it is

[Lights]

Mostly aero.

[Atreiu]

I think they are missing tens of thousands of wind tunnel hours.

[Tolyngee]

I think the new teams have gas pedals that only go to 10, while the veteran teams have gas pedals that go to 11.

[krapmeister]

Personnel - people like Adrian Newey, Ross Brawn etc...

[Alfisti]

The key point here is tyhe speed of the DP2 cars which are faster than the Dallara built F1 spec car.

Now that's weird.

[Zoe]

I think they are missing tens of thousands of wind tunnel hours.

Well, Nick Wirth claimed his CFD approach would perfectly do without wind tunnel hours....

I remember another of his constructions, which claimed a lot of innovations that in the end didn't work at all and in the end were taken off again.....

Zoe

[Risil]

The key point here is tyhe speed of the DP2 cars which are faster than the Dallara built F1 spec car.

Now that's weird.

Isn't the GP2 engine nearly twice the displacement of F1's?

[iotar]

1. $$$$$
2. time
3. experience
4. engine

[Lazarus II]

The sun doesn't rise and fall on the "f-duct" (really J-Switch) as some seem to believe.

You don't seem to want the real an$$$$$$$$$$wer. There'$ an an$$$wer out there, but who know$$$ what it could be. It'$ the $ecret of fa$$$$t car$$ throughout the world.....I wonder what it could be

[sosidge]

At the "normal" tracks, I suspect aero is the biggest issue - we've seen how the new teams can follow each other closely on the occasions they have a battle, whereas the leading teams lose performance within 1.5secs.

Around Monaco, aero is less important, so I actually wonder whether it is the tyres. GP2's tyres are built to last a much shorter distance at much lower loadings than the F1 rubber.

Chandhok/Senna/DiGrassi have all raced in GP2, Dallara have built GP2 chassis, the Cosworth Engine is competitive in the Williams, so I find it hard to believe that Dallara are unable to build a better chassis for F1. Tyres is about all there is left.

[Ghostrider]

Well, Nick Wirth claimed his CFD approach would perfectly do without wind tunnel hours....

I remember another of his constructions, which claimed a lot of innovations that in the end didn't work at all and in the end were taken off again.....

Zoe

You think of the FTT (front torque transfer) in 1999 on the Benetton 109?

Wirth seems to be a loudmouth to me, a lot of words, but very little in terms of actual performance.

[Ghostrider]

There should have been an option -All of the above.

[Captain Tightpants]

Why is it that everyone seems to exect that the new teams would be on par with the established teams? Even the newcomers themselves admitted they would be behind.

[kelly_mrt]

1. $$$$$
2. time
3. experience
4. engine

this

[Henrytheeigth]

I'm glad they are behind. They and their antics make the races much less boring and fun at times, I love em!

[Atreiu]

Why is it that everyone seems to exect that the new teams would be on par with the established teams? Even the newcomers themselves admitted they would be behind.

Nobody expected on par but simply a gap not so big.

[MadYarpen]

why can't I mark all options?

[BiH]

simple answer: all of the above

[Captain Tightpants]

Nobody expected on par but simply a gap not so big.

I suspect the new teams may have known it. After all, they have simulations that tell them everything they need to know about their performance before they even go to a race.

It's more important that they make a basic car and that they make it well than if they try their hand at a more complex and sophisticated design. If they do the former they'll have a year at the minimum until they're on the pace. But if they make a complex car and screw it up, they have to go back to square one and take two years. After all, they're not just building a car, they're building an entire team.

[Tenmantaylor]

For those of you who seem unable to read the original question this thread is to discuss performance attributes in isolation, not the circumstances which lead to the performance attributes to be less advanced. Proportionally which one is costing the new teams most laptime? You should be able to pick one which you think has the biggest impact on lap time and as far as Im concerned those 4 are the main factors in F1 car performance.

GP2 cars have less power than F1 cars but are going quicker around Monaco 5 races into the season. Everyone knows how little money and development time the new teams have available to them so it's really not a talking point AFAIC. Its bloody obvious. What's not obvious is how they are slower than GP2 with more power. Common sense would say aero but it could be setups being poor or mechanical grip being highlighted at a track like Monaco (which could be chassis related also).

Maybe I should've posted in the tech forum.

[Zoe]

You think of the FTT (front torque transfer) in 1999 on the Benetton 109?

Wirth seems to be a loudmouth to me, a lot of words, but very little in terms of actual performance.

Actually I was thinking of the spoon-shaped front wing of the Simtek; but now that you mention the FTT

The real test will be imho, whether and in which form the team will be in F1 next year.

Zoe

[Ferrim]

slow? 3sec a lap slower?

I think you forgot the days when minardi (with experience) where regularly +3-4 sec a lap
new teams, new designs, no tests etc

if anything, the fact that they are so close shows how much of a spec formula it is

It amazes me how quick people have forgotten that Minardi was 6 secs off the pace as recently as 2004. And still 4-5 secs in 2005.

[Zoe]

Yes, however in the Minardi days, top teams were testing like crazy, whereas the el-cheapo teams like Minardi weren't.

Zoe

[Alfisti]

Nobody expected on par but simply a gap not so big.

But the gap isn't so big.

Man are you all under the age of 18 or something??? Remember Minardi? Simtek?

[Henrytheeigth]

I miss Minardi, they followed V10's outa F1

Well I know the torro rosso had a rev limited v10 or wotever lol i think it was them but not the same as the real deal that was...

Edited by Henrytheeigth, 13 May 2010 - 15:12.

[UPRC]

Other

A lacking of refinement and experience in all areas

I agree with this post 100%.

[Captain Tightpants]

For those of you who seem unable to read the original question this thread is to discuss performance attributes in isolation, not the circumstances which lead to the performance attributes to be less advanced. Proportionally which one is costing the new teams most laptime? You should be able to pick one which you think has the biggest impact on lap time and as far as Im concerned those 4 are the main factors in F1 car performance.

But those circumstances are highly relevant to the actual performance attributes.

[senna da silva]

Where's the Mosley option?

[Captain Tightpants]

Where's the Mosley option?

Yes, because Max Mosley built all of those cars himself. It doesn't matter if the new teams included Prodrive and Lola or not - they all would have been off the pace.

[senna da silva]

Yes, because Max Mosley built all of those cars himself. It doesn't matter if the new teams included Prodrive and Lola or not - they all would have been off the pace.

Mosley set expectations for the new teams that never came to fruition.

[PayasYouRace]

Really the multiple vote option would have been needed here, because their lack of pace is down to a combination of most if not all of those things. And yes, money comes down to it too.

As for why a GP2 car can be faster than a F1 car from the same constructor, it's not a mystery when you consider all the inherant advantages the GP2 car has. These include engine displacement, front wing without a lifting centre section and underbody venturis.

[Fastcake]

All of the above. Maybe not engine power so much, (although the Williams are hardly impressive cars right now) but general lack of expertise, refinement, and experience in every area. Aero, set-up, suspension, mechanical grip you name it.

[Disgrace]

There should have been an option -All of the above.

There you go.

[Risil]

But the gap isn't so big.

Man are you all under the age of 18 or something??? Remember Minardi? Simtek?

The best of the new teams set a fastest lap in the last race that was 5.5s slower than Hamilton's. Chandhok was a further two seconds slower than that. I don't think the new teams have done by any means a bad job, nor is this methodology particularly exhaustive, but this is the biggest disparity in fastest laps in the modern era. At Barcelona in 1994, the Simtek was 5.4s off, and Pacific's (with a design office of three people, I believe) best effort was only 6.4s down. And this was with markedly inferior engines to the current breed of Cosworths. I do think that more new teams, and a system of pre-qualifying, would raise the standard considerably. How quickly would Jordan have got up to speed, if they had been guaranteed a grid spot despite being 7-8 seconds slower than the leaders?

[VresiBerba]

Its quite hard to believe an F1 spec car are lapping slower than GP2 cars on the same track on the same weekend.

Which only goes to show that around the streets of Monaco you don't need 800 horse power. I'm certain that you could achieve those times even with a decent go-kart.

Nobody expected on par but simply a gap not so big.

Actually, I'm surprised they're not slower. Three seconds around the bends of Monaco isn't that much of a big deal, certainly not with history in mind. What would a Simtek or a Mastercard Lola manage.

[D.M.N.]

Its quite hard to believe an F1 spec car are lapping slower than GP2 cars on the same track on the same weekend. Even more amazing when the drivers of these cars went faster themselves in GP2 last year than their F1 laps this year.

Your opinions on what is the main reason please.

Havnt included drivers because Glock, Trulli and Kova are known quantities.

Lotus and Virgin are fine. Hispania should have been told to set up for 2011, you know you're bad when your slower than a GP2 car.

[tifosi]

I think the new teams have gas pedals that only go to 10, while the veteran teams have gas pedals that go to 11.

I still love that entire "interview".

[lambylamby]

I'm glad they are behind. They and their antics make the races much less boring and fun at times, I love em!

here here. they will catch up, give them time. in the meantime, it's great to see the progress of the new teams, some doing it WAY under budget.

[Sammyosammy]

So slow..? Four seconds off the pace when the track is 4 km long...

Do You really call a man who is running 100m 9.8sec slow compared to a guy with 9.7sec...???

Edited by Sammyosammy, 13 May 2010 - 18:30.