35 replies to this topic

[ZippyD]

Shame on the Silverstone organizers for telling people to stay away on Saturday and Sunday.
Let people come to the track and have a good time in the mud like Keir and I used to do at the Glen.
Try setting up a tent when the pegs go down about 3 feet(1 meter) and still pull out of the ground. Try starting a fire with wood that's been soaking in water for a week. No amount of Vodka can get it ignited. Greet the morning in the tent that you thought you had set up the night before and discover the river that's running through the middle of it. See how far you can slide in the mud.
I'm suppressed the ticket holders didn't storm the track and demand to be let in. If they tried that at the Glen the crowd would have burned the place to ground and turned the place into one big bog!!!
I guess Uncle Bernie was right when he said a few years ago, "the spectators aren't important"


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"I want to tell you something, not about the others but about myself."
"When I saw something like that I used to go to pieces."
"But I'm older now. When I see something really terrible I put my foot down. HARD! Because I know the other person is lifting his."
"What a terrible way to win."
"Cher mademoiselle, there is no terrible way to win. There is only winning."

[BRG]

Yeah well, Zippy, we boring old British race fans have this strange tendency to want to sit and watch the racing rather than burning Porsches in the swamp. It's a cultural thing, dontcha know, old boy!

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BRG

"all the time, maximum attack"

[ZippyD]

BRG,
I would have thought the Brits with their history of labor organizing and strikes whould be more "vocal" in responding to the situation.

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"I want to tell you something, not about the others but about myself."
"When I saw something like that I used to go to pieces."
"But I'm older now. When I see something really terrible I put my foot down. HARD! Because I know the other person is lifting his."
"What a terrible way to win."
"Cher mademoiselle, there is no terrible way to win. There is only winning."

[Keir]

Truly shocking!!!!

This lack of regard for the spectators reminds me of an old saying:

"Don't Tread on Me"

Mow, I know you Brits are familiar with that one.
What Silverstone needed was a swift Revolutionary kick in the ass.

"OFF WITH THEIR HEADS"

[Ray Bell]

Now, you were expecting this from me:
What better can you do with Porsches?
All the same, the wettest days at a race meeting are often the best, but damned hard to explain when you get back home.
Bathurst is the place for camping, though, and the fact that the mountain rises some 650' from the start/finish straight virtually guarantees that there are no rivers running through the tents... all spectator camping is on top of the mountain, where you can rise in the morning to the mists and sounds of sore heads, where the sun works its way through to reveal a broad panorama with the Blue Mountains in the distant east.
Today it's more antiseptic than ever, but still a true experience. You Yanks don't have any road circuits that have been running since 1938, have you?
Fact is, only Spa pre-dates Mount Panorama... or have I forgotten one?
Anyway, nowhere else in the world can such a story as this have taken place.
Bathurst, 1938: Clive Gibson, to become mechanic for the irrepressable Frank Kleinig, wanders round Bathurst looking for somewhere to keep warm. Easter is not a kindly time of year in this area when the sun goes down. He has already walked the three miles or so from the circuit to town. With his brother he finds a phone box that keeps out some of the wind, and they settle down for the night in that. Meanwhile budding photographer Byron Gunther has also walked back to town, having come to Bathurst by train, not even knowing where the place was. He finds a man demonstrating a new-fangled spark improver, so his engine is warm. Byron stands around for hours until he packs up - he followed this routine the previous night, so he knows it's time to head for his phone box. Alas, it is occupied! Common sense prevails, however, and a lifelong friendship is kindled as the three share the warmth of that phone box for the night.
Clive Gibson becomes the man who keeps Kleinig's Hudson racer fast enough to wow the fans for the next 15 years. Byron Gunther goes on to take some of the world's truly great motor racing photos...

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Eric McLoughlin]

The problem was not spectators, but their cars. Due to the UK's lousy public transport system, getting anywhere off the beaten track (like the wilds of Northamptonshire) means driving.
40,000 cars were expected on Sunday and there would have been nowhere to park them if the parks (ie. local farmers' fields) had not been closed on Saturday. Thats why fans were told to stay away on Saturday, to give the car parks a chance to recover. If you got there by foot, bicycle, chopper (horse, camel ....)you were more than welcome. What's more, the local constabulary threw up an 8 mile vehicle total exclusion zone around the circuit on Daturday morning. It was re-instated later on on Sunday morning when a 15 mile (yes..15 MILES) tailback built up. Some people ended up listening to the GP on their car radios (its covered in the UK by BBC Radio 5 Live).

All in all, a total fiasco - and more argument why fans should boycott the British GP - £90 to stand in a swamp, I ask you.



[This message has been edited by Eric McLoughlin (edited 04-25-2000).]

[ZippyD]

Ray,
I don't think there are any road racing tracks that old over here in the good ol' US of A. Keir? Road racing didn't catch on here until after the war(WWII). Most of the old tracks are ovals. Indy being the prime example. There are allot of old 1/4 mile dirt tracks scattered through out the country. On any given Saturday night in the Summer there are probably a few thousand races going on through out the land at the fair grounds where these tracks are located.
As far as camping elevation goes, Watkins Glen is a true Glen. The track and its surrounding camping facilities are in the bottom of the Glen. So when it does rain, as it usually does in October in upstate New York, the water tends to settle right where you're trying to rest you head for a good night's sleep or trying to start a fire to cook or keep warm.
However, when the weather is nice there aren't many places in the worlds that are more beautiful. With the trees in the surrounding glen at their Autumn best and magnificent Lake Seneca off to the North it's quite a site to behold.

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"I want to tell you something, not about the others but about myself."
"When I saw something like that I used to go to pieces."
"But I'm older now. When I see something really terrible I put my foot down. HARD! Because I know the other person is lifting his."
"What a terrible way to win."
"Cher mademoiselle, there is no terrible way to win. There is only winning."

[Keir]

Only Indy survived from the pre-war tracks.
There was this great circuit, Roosevelt Raceway in NY, which would rival any modern day circuit, but it fell to the real estate boom. As did many of the early tracks.

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"I Was Born Ready"

[This message has been edited by Keir (edited 04-26-2000).]

[buddyt]

If my memory is correct it was a BUS (Greyhound type) that one bog creature stole and tried to drive thru the bog, when it failed to make it the other creatures put it out of its misery. I doubt if Silverstone weather could have been much worst than we have seen at the Glen. Once a tornado touched down in the infield at Talladega but thats another story.:.

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"Speed cost money, how fast do you want to go?"

[Ray Bell]

The point I was making was about public road circuits... and there were some in the States before the war, Dennis posted something a few weeks ago about one.
There are speedways in Australia that date back a long way, too, though most of the really old ones have fallen foul of development or do-gooders.
Sounds like the Glen was fun... and from photos I can see the scenery was good. So is the scenery at Bathurst... sounds like Silverstone is anything but fun - I could never work out why the long Brands circuit wasn't the preferred venue.
As for road racing before the war in the US, I love the old Collier brothers stories, the Climb to the Clouds... hey, you've still got Pikes Peak!

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[FlagMan]

I think some of you are being a bit hard in the BRDC - the Silverstone organisers.

I don't think that there is any race circuit in the UK that could cope with 100,000 crowd/40,000 cars give the weather conditions we had in the lead up to Easter.

Bernie criticised Silverstone for not having hard standing for the car parks - it must be very hard for the BRDC to justify the cost, both financial and environmental, of hard surfacing the car parks for a once-a-year event, especially as Mr Ecclestone is playing 'silly buggers' over the future venue of the GP. - I bet if he was to gain control at Silverstone (his undoubted long-term aim), he would find an excuse not to 'concrete the car parks'.

Perhaps the BRDC should have gone ahead with their alternate option (which I believe they came very close to doing) of cancelling the GP - I would like to have seen Mr E's reaction then - after all, as he is the one who holds the TV rights for the GP - he would have then had to accept some of the responsiblity for there being no TV broadcast - I bet that would have done a great deal for his proposed F1 float...

[BRG]

Hear hear, Flagman!

The sight of Bernie disclaiming any responsibility for the weekend fiasco was absolutely sickening, the hypocritical little git! And to play to British Francophobia by blaming the French would have been even more distasteful if it hadn't been simply ridiculous.

Then Max reckoned it was nothing to do with the FIA either So who is running this show? Perhaps no-one is, which explains a lot!

Anyway the excellent publicity that the sport received would certainly have helped with the flotation (not!) - if the City hadn't already made it plain that they aren't interested in paying a lot for a slice of nothing...

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BRG

"all the time, maximum attack"

[Pete Stanley]

I am under the impression that the track at Lime Rock, CT, has been around for a very long time. The date 1910 keeps creeping into my mind...

[Keir]

Sorry, Pete, but Lime Rock Park is still working on it's 50th anniversary.
There might have been some racing through the town, like Watkins Glen, but not at the present facility.

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"I Was Born Ready"

[ZippyD]

Buddyt,
Yeah, the BOG torched the bus in 1975. I think it was 75. Keir? What a sight!!! Big billowing clouds of black smoke pouring from the right hander before the start finish line during the race.
The BOG was an interesting place. It was wetter than most places around the track. Maybe an underground spring or something because even when the weather was fine the BOG was wet. By Saturday afternoon the BOB would have claimed 3 or 4 cars. Burned as a sacrifice to the gods. The best was always Saturday night. I really wish I had a video camera back then to capture the sights and sounds. Looking like a scene out of Apocalypse Now there would be New York state troopers in full riot gear, back lit from the fire, thick black smoke pouring from some poor saps burning Buick, standing across the track trying to divert people from going to the BOG. When you got to where the car was burning it was a very eerie scene. 50 or 60 drugged out hippie types encircling the fire, chanting in unison: "THE BOG WANTS CARS.....THE BOG WANTS CARS.....THE BOG WANTS CARS....". Almost like an American Indian war dance. People falling into the fire, other people pulling them out of the fire, others urinating on the fire, truly bizarre!!!!!
By Sunday after the race you would see the burnt remains of 5 or 6 cars. The fun was trying to figure out what type of cars they may have been. This was really difficult as the remains usually consisted of melted windshields, tires, wires. Where the engines and frame went to nobody seems to know!!!

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"I want to tell you something, not about the others but about myself."
"When I saw something like that I used to go to pieces."
"But I'm older now. When I see something really terrible I put my foot down. HARD! Because I know the other person is lifting his."
"What a terrible way to win."
"Cher mademoiselle, there is no terrible way to win. There is only winning."

[This message has been edited by ZippyD (edited 04-26-2000).]

[Treeface]

During the first decade of the AAA sanction (1909-1918) public road and street courses made up a large portion of events for the AAA series. http://www.motorsport.com/stats/champ Then came the board track craze....

[This message has been edited by Treeface (edited 04-26-2000).]

[Ray Bell]

Uh oh, how could I forget Monaco... it was there before Mount Panorama, too.
Love those old street circuits... why did they have to die? Looked around Wirlinga the other day, absolutely destroyed now, one complete side cut off... houses stand on top of it, gates cut across it. At each end the roads have been realigned completely, there's a huge roundabout. Not at all reminiscent of the only circuit in Australia that affected two highways.

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[This message has been edited by Ray Bell (edited 04-26-2000).]

[Keir]

I can't top that BOG story.
The bus was sacrificed in 1974, it was rented by the many Brazilian fans who had come to watch Emmo win his second title,
sadly, no one thought to have someone watch the bus.

The BOG was but a tiny piece of American racing. You either loved it, or hated it, but you never forgot it.

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"I Was Born Ready"

[Ray Bell]

They shouldn't have had to! But we have a few people like that at Bathurst too, spoiling things for decent folk.
You know, for years I read of 'the bog' and never knew it was a literal bog! Nobody actually said what it was, just a haven for dimwits and drunken crazies...

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Treeface]

I was unaware of the BOG prior to this string. Proof of the value of the Nostalgia Forum in preserving racing history If you haven't seen pics: http://www.geocities...y/2668/Bog.html

[ZippyD]

Keir,
Check out the BOG page. There's a picture of BUDMAN!!!!!! The real BUDMAN!!!!

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"I want to tell you something, not about the others but about myself."
"When I saw something like that I used to go to pieces."
"But I'm older now. When I see something really terrible I put my foot down. HARD! Because I know the other person is lifting his."
"What a terrible way to win."
"Cher mademoiselle, there is no terrible way to win. There is only winning."

[Keir]

I still have the best "Budman" picture.
One day I'll scan it and spread the wealth.

THE BOG WANTS YOU

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"I Was Born Ready"

[ZippyD]

LONG LIVE THE BOG!!!!

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"I want to tell you something, not about the others but about myself."
"When I saw something like that I used to go to pieces."
"But I'm older now. When I see something really terrible I put my foot down. HARD! Because I know the other person is lifting his."
"What a terrible way to win."
"Cher mademoiselle, there is no terrible way to win. There is only winning."

[Dave Ware]

I remember reading that the Brazilians' luggage also went up in flames, along with that bus.

I never made it to the Bog, or to the Glen for the Grand Prix. One of the dumb things I wish I could undo.

That's a nice site. I remember seeing Bud Man.

Dave

[Falcadore]

Old circuits
Brooklands - 1907
Indianapolis - 1909
AVUS - 1921
Stiges-Terramar - 1922
Monza - 1922
Montlhery - 1924
Spa-Francorchamps - 1924
Melbourne Motodrome - 1924
Solitude - 1925
Marouba - 1925
Reims - 1925
Nurburgring Nordschlieffe - 1926
Le Mans - 1929 (first version similar to modern day Le Mans)
Monaco - 1929
Hockenheim - 1929
Brno - 1930
Bremgarten - 1931
Pau - 1933
Donnington - 1933
Crystal Palace - 1937
Mount Panorama - 1938

amny of these are now gone of course, others chicaned or modified its character away. Of the survivors, Indianaoplis has changed little, such is the nature of superspeedways, Monza is today a shadow of it's former self, it's grandeur now in it's image and history rather than the circuit itself, Spa rebuilt as a much shorter circuit, but all the same a grand circuit worthy of the original name, Montlhery is still there, but seldom used, the mighty Nordschlieffe is still there but some corners gone and some of the crests flattenned, ans the neighboruing Sudschlieffe is long gone. Le Mans died when the Mulsanne was chicaned, twice, and now the crest are being flattenned there too, Monaco acquired a swimming pool and corners were tightenned and chicaned, Hockenheim was halved in length, and now looks like being halved again, Donnington was rebuilt and Mount Panorama acquired the Caltex Chase.

Oh for a time machine, a good pair of hiking boots and a 246 Dino to mount it all in. What was Christopher Lloyd thinking of with a de Lorean?

[Ray Bell]

Mark - what I was referring to was the age of existing public road circuits, and I can only think of the two that predate Bathurst. But what of some of the lesser known ones, Brno... Pau, is that still in use... anything else, even with some changes (not a total revision, just some changes?

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Falcadore]

There were three Brno - the first two were closely related, the third is a 'modern' circuit, which the FIM World Motorcycle Championship and the ETCC visited. The classic Brno was a road circuit of fabled mmory but it had to go

Pau still runs for F3 now that the F3000 series races exclusively at F1 tracks.

Le Mans is part road course - the Mulsanne being a working highway.

Spa was built as a road course, but the sections of track formerly used as normal roads have now been bypassed, so Spa is in effect a closed circuit now.

[mini mum]

I'm new to this site, but after reading Zippy's post I had to smile. We camped at Silverstone last weekend, and Zippy brought back all the memories. We knew we were in trouble when we were towed onto a field by tractor on Thursday, Hey Zippy we had it all, the mud. the river in the tent - the lot. We plodged to and fro the circuit for the whole weekend, sat and froze in the tent at night, and had a wonderful weekend. Don't tell the FIA though we want to go back to July next year. The only low spot of the whole weekend was the impatient fan rushing home for his tea on Sunday who drove over my daughters foot, knocking her across the bonnet, and then drove off. Shocked, bruised but never downhearted we continued our trudge to our campsite affectionaly known as "the Somme on a bad day" and called Bernie and Max (not to mention the hit and run driver) some choice names. Camping at Silverstone - Brilliant!

[Ray Bell]

One day, in the distant future, you'll get a maxi mum laugh out of all that...

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[ZippyD]

Mini Mum,
Camping is the only way to experience a race weekend. Having been to the Canadian GP
a few times I can tell you it's just not the same. Much too civilized.

------------------
"I want to tell you something, not about the others but about myself."
"When I saw something like that I used to go to pieces."
"But I'm older now. When I see something really terrible I put my foot down. HARD! Because I know the other person is lifting his."
"What a terrible way to win."
"Cher mademoiselle, there is no terrible way to win. There is only winning."

[mini mum]

Hey Zippy, for a real camping treat have you tried Spa? If you can find a patch of grass, on the side of the road, some garden, or a field you can pitch your tent. The whole town goes into carnival mood, and you can do as you like. The toilet facilities both inside and outside the circuit are crap, but anyone who opts for hotel accomodation really misses out.

[ZippyD]

Mimi Mum,
I've been to the circuit but never during a race weekend. It's a great place. I was very tempted to try to outbrake another car going into the bus stop. I thought twice about it when I figured I couldn't see if there was a bus there or not. There was a gate open and I was able to drive on the closed portion of the circuit too. I was in heaven!!!!!

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"I want to tell you something, not about the others but about myself."
"When I saw something like that I used to go to pieces."
"But I'm older now. When I see something really terrible I put my foot down. HARD! Because I know the other person is lifting his."
"What a terrible way to win."
"Cher mademoiselle, there is no terrible way to win. There is only winning."

[Ray Bell]

I would have thought more of it if the gate was shut and I drove on the part they've abandoned....
Still, a rare opportunity is not to be wasted, and you could always do another lap...

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[ZippyD]

Ray,
I'm not sure what you mean by the "abandoned part". I drove on the closed to the public part of the circuit. You can still drive on the public portion. The one thing that pissed me off is that I could not find the Masta kink. Maybe next time.

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"I want to tell you something, not about the others but about myself."
"When I saw something like that I used to go to pieces."
"But I'm older now. When I see something really terrible I put my foot down. HARD! Because I know the other person is lifting his."
"What a terrible way to win."
"Cher mademoiselle, there is no terrible way to win. There is only winning."

[Ray Bell]

Abandoned to racing, the bit they left off when they went down through the valley with the shortcut. The bit, I'm sure, that's depicted in the pic at the head of Dennis' 'Circuits I know and love' thread.
Says it all, that does!

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[ZippyD]

You're right Ray. It is a shame.

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"Yugo, you must come and settle an argument we are having about the 1933 Targa Florio. He's the only one old enough to remember."
"Now there is a dubious distinction."