41 replies to this topic

[henryting]

Aside from Ferrari, due to its tradition and following, every other team seem to have a multi-national assembly of machinerys, components and drivers (even Ferrari has foreigners for its driver stable.

Maclaren : British chassis, Mercedes engine, Finnish and
British driver with a "West" logo prominently displaced. What is West and what place it has deserving such an association with F1.

Jordan : Irish management, British chassis, Japanese engines and German drivers.

Jaguars : British company, but American majority owned.

BAR : British American Racing, but where is the British influence. It uses Japanese engines.

Williams : British management, German engine.

The list goes on and on. Personally I think the trend is a good thing, allowing the best of the best in assembling a racing team, reagardless of any country of origin. Even CART has its multinational mix. But than NASCAR and Indy will always remain as American and they are successful in its attraction of diehard fans; just like the Ferraris, nationalism and passsion also has its magic.

[Dudley]

McLaren's engine is British, even if Mercedes badge it.

Prost WERE mostly French, suppose that's all changed.

[Cociani]

BAR are based in Britain. Reynard the chassis builder is British. Honda are Japanese. The only American part of BAR is the Tobacco ownership.(Which is really a multinational corporation).

[tim]

West is a cigarette brand (surprise). I think its colour is silver, hence the tie in with Mercedes (or something like that). I think its parent company is called something like "Reethsma" (spelling?) and its Mclaren's title sponsor, hence the prominence of its brand name.

[kober]

Originally posted by tim
West is a cigarette brand (surprise). I think its colour is silver, hence the tie in with Mercedes (or something like that). I think its parent company is called something like "Reethsma" (spelling?) and its Mclaren's title sponsor, hence the prominence of its brand name.

West is a cigarette brand belonging to Reemtsma, which is based in Hamburg, Germany.

[DangerMouse]

Traditionally Honda have done the engine R&D and assembly in Japan - this is about to change. Honda have taken over the (British) Mugen F1 factory and are expected to do R&D in Japan *and* the UK. As well as doing a great deal of assembly and part production in the UK to speed up the engines development life cycle. This is a massive cultural change for Honda who are(were) fiercely proud about not relying on the UKs intrinsic F1 know-how the but the ferocity of development in modern F1 have forced them to do it – I’m sure though, in Honda tradition, the Majority of R&D will still be back in Japan and the UK side will only concentrate on small parts of the project.

The BAR is designed and Built in the UK - I'd say that makes it fairly British.

Minardi, Ferrari, Sauber and Prost are the only cars not designed and built in the UK, but if you look closely at any team you see they are a sea of multi-national talent I don’t think (other than in manufacturing) you could put a finger on any F1 teams nationality.

[Jaxs]

Ex Honda engine designer worked for Ferrari for some time, He might even be still there,

[DangerMouse]

Otto or Goto - summit like that!;)
He went to Sauber with the customer Petronas deal.

[Todd]

I think it was Otsama Goto. He started running the Ferrarin customer engine lease program in 1997. Ferrari's racing team noticed that the early '97 engines were heavier, less powerful, and less reliable than the engines they had at the end of '96. I think Goto is back at Honda, but why he was assigned to Sauber is a mystery to me. Forghieri(?) is rather brilliant too, but the V10s may have evolved faster had Goto stayed in house.

[MrAerodynamicist]

Originally posted by DangerMouse
The BAR is designed and Built in the UK - I'd say that makes it fairly British.

The question is, where the american input? Seriously, how British vs. how American is 'British American Tabacco'?

[mhferrari]

Prost was nationalistic in 2000, and look at how great the Peugeot turned out!

[Makarias]

Osamu Goto, IIRC.

[goGoGene]

Todd, does this Goto fellow lend any credence to the rumour that I hear from time to time that Ferrari's resurgence is connected to a know-how buy out of Honda?

I have never hear of Goto, but it would seem to make a connection between Ferrari and Honda.

On another topic isn't Reynard both in America and England? I thought that I heard that the old Panoz (not the very cool new one) was penned by Reynard in the states.

Jag's aero programm is is California, though that should be shifting to the F1/Rally facility in England soon.

And I would have to guess that Merc has more involovement in Ilmore than people let on. Ilmore used to be an American company, though they may be Brit or German, I don't know the companies history.

ggg

[Blue]

I'm quite sure that if there would be a finnish car builder I would be all their side, maybe cause I'm a engineer.

And anyhow if there is 2 drivers from one country, they usually chose one to cheer. Does this mean the nationality is not so big theme?

[Ray Bell]

I thought there was a Swiss connection with Ilmor, actually, but in this truly international sport there are many things hard to keep track of. Ilmor do have an engine facility of some kind in the USA, I think in Chicago.

[MattFoster]

we need more Australian and American involvement in F1

[Todd]

Originally posted by goGoGene
Todd, does this Goto fellow lend any credence to the rumour that I hear from time to time that Ferrari's resurgence is connected to a know-how buy out of Honda?

I have never hear of Goto, but it would seem to make a connection between Ferrari and Honda.

Goto is the link between Honda and Ferrari, but Ferrari's resurgence isn't easily linked to him. He was one piece. His active role with the Ferrari team ended during '96, so he helped plan out the first V10, but Ferrari failed to follow his course in '97, and they've effectively duplicated his efforts in the path to their good current engines. His role is similar to Paul Rosche's in the BMW V10 project. He showed them how to set up the program, then stepped aside.

Originally posted by goGoGene
On another topic isn't Reynard both in America and England? I thought that I heard that the old Panoz (not the very cool new one) was penned by Reynard in the states.

In addition to the Panoz, Reynard has designed and fabricated a lot of cars as engineering consultants. The Dodge Stratus touring car's chassis was guided by Reynard. The Plymouth Prowler's chassis was aided greatly by Reynard. Reynard bought Indiannapolis based Riley & Scott, maker of successful WSC chassises and less successful IRL cars.

Originally posted by goGoGene
And I would have to guess that Merc has more involovement in Ilmore than people let on. Ilmore used to be an American company, though they may be Brit or German, I don't know the companies history.

ggg

Ilmor is a Brit company. It is named for Mario Ilien and ???? Morgan(?), who are former engineers from Cosworth. It is somewhat US linked, as Roger Penske is a large partner, and their CART engines were badged as Cheverolets for years.

[goGoGene]

Thanks Todd, I don't see why everyone says you're so dumb (teeheehee). I didn't know about the R&S Reynard connection.
Have you seen the new Panoz? Quite a looker; I hope it can take Le Mans next year (I know you have "issues" with Le Mans prototypes )
ggg

[Jaxs]

Steve Nichol, American, has just joined Jaguar, ex Ferrari, ex McLaren......John Barnard,English, very influential with McLaren, Ferrari, Arrows etc,

[confucius]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
I thought there was a Swiss connection with Ilmor, actually, but in this truly international sport there are many things hard to keep track of. Ilmor do have an engine facility of some kind in the USA, I think in Chicago.

Mario Illien (the "Il" part or Ilmor i'm guessing) is Swiss methinks. Read that somewhere if i recall correctly but may be wrong. Anyone know who the other half of Ilmor Engineering is?

[henryting]

Originally posted by Dudley
McLaren's engine is British, even if Mercedes badge it.

Hmmm...didn't know that. The engine being the powerplant of F1, there ought to be some restrictions. You mean to tell me some marque engine builders for F1 are turning into OEM suppliers ? Whoever has the deepest pocket can have their logo embossed on the engine ?

[Ray Bell]

Bit late for a comment like that... Ford paid over a hundred thousand quid in 1966 and thereafter owned the name on the Cosworth DFV.
It may not have been the first time that happened, but I think it was.
Today we have Petronas badging Ferrari engines, Supertech on Renault, Mugen on Honda (admittedly, they're related) and we've seen Judd on some Hondas, too, I think.
There are probably more...

[garth_b]

www.dailyf1.com/en/news/2000/october/31d.shtml

This link gives a thumbnail background to Mario Illien and Ilmor. Hope it helps clean up some of the details around Ilmor for you.

[molive]

Originally posted by henryting

Aside from Ferrari, due to its tradition and following, every other team seem to have a multi-national assembly of machinerys, components and drivers (even Ferrari has foreigners for its driver stable.

Maclaren : British chassis, Mercedes engine, Finnish and
British driver with a "West" logo prominently displaced. What is West and what place it has deserving such an association with F1.

Jordan : Irish management, British chassis, Japanese engines and German drivers.

Jaguars : British company, but American majority owned.

BAR : British American Racing, but where is the British influence. It uses Japanese engines.

Williams : British management, German engine.

The list goes on and on. Personally I think the trend is a good thing, allowing the best of the best in assembling a racing team, reagardless of any country of origin. Even CART has its multinational mix. But than NASCAR and Indy will always remain as American and they are successful in its attraction of diehard fans; just like the Ferraris, nationalism and passsion also has its magic.

You forgot to mention the one thing all these teams have (or had, or will have) in common:

Brazilian drivers

And the same goes for CART...


BTW, Nationalism? what nationalism?;)

[mikedeering]

Ofcourse Mercedes engines are badged! - They don't make them in Germany - Ilmor build them in the UK, with funding from Mercedes...

Car manufacturers make could car engines, but often have no idea about F1 - its usual practice to pay a racing specialist to build engines...

If I was rich enough I could approach Ilmor and ask them to build me an F1 engine, then badge it the Deering and link up with Minardi!

Of course, I couldn't because I expect Ilmor have a bit in their contract about "Not building F1 engines for anyone other than Mercedes..."

[Amadeus]

Nationalism (real or claimed) is making a comeback. Back in the 50's you had Germans racing Silver cars (old Audi and Merc, modern Mercedes-McLaren) Italians racing in Red (Alfa, then Ferrari, modern Ferrari, even if it is a TV friendly orange in the metal), Brits in British Racing Green (Lotus et al, seen in a modern (basterdized) form on the current Jag) and the French racing in Blue (as the Prost now does). I think it's great to see heritage represented like this...

In terms of which teams can realistacaly claim to be a 'national' team, obviously Ferrari and apart from that Jaguar, based at Silverstone, Brit manufactured chassis and Cosworth engine (also Brit) seem to be the closest.

[MrAerodynamicist]

Originally posted by Todd
Ilmor is a Brit company. It is named for Mario Ilien and ???? Morgan(?), who are former engineers from Cosworth. It is somewhat US linked, as Roger Penske is a large partner, and their CART engines were badged as Cheverolets for years. [/B]

Paul Morgan. Ilien and Morgan have the controlling share, then McLaren and Penske share the rest.

[crbfbr]

I believe Ford is 100 percent owner of Jaguar and Cosworth.

[Amadeus]

Originally posted by crbfbr
I believe Ford is 100 percent owner of Jaguar and Cosworth.

It is, but the facility, expertise and majority of work force are UK based, regardless of who signs the cheques. It's like the question about the film industry - if the writer, director and cast are English but the money is American is it an English or American film? I work for a US corporate, but I live and work in Ireland and carry an Irish passport - am I still Irish or am I now an American?

[DangerMouse]

Cosworth were only fairly recently bought by Ford (about 18 months ago?) before that they were owned by Audi for a year, and before that a Brit company lock and stock.

[gray_cat]

I was under impression that Cosworth belonged to Ford for meny years before it was taken by Audi, is that true ?

[senninha]

I hope PPD will put a brazilian driver on Prost's. Not to do the same as Petrobras (Williams fuel)...

There is a gossip can have a seat for A. Pizzonia.

[Jaxs]

Cosworth have been owned by Vickers, huge engineering conglomerate, then Bristish Aerospace, then Volkswagen, then Ford. Ford didn't like a competitor owning the company that carried out most of the engine developement, so a deal was done.

[Amadeus]

Originally posted by gray_cat
I was under impression that Cosworth belonged to Ford for meny years before it was taken by Audi, is that true ?

Cosworth have a long and exceptional record with Ford dating back to the 70's (although the first race engine they developed was run by Lotus and won GPs pioloted by Jim Clark). As far as I know the first Ford/Cosworth link was the Escort Rally cars which dominated the WRC for many years. They have also had a strong input into the hottest Hot Fords - Sierra Cosworth and Escort Cosworths were among the most desirable and affordable supercars of the 80s with a following simaler to that of the Impreza today. High insurance costs killed off the Ford Cossies in the end, but Cosworth continued to be involved on and off the track with a number of manufacturors (Merc asked Cosworth to design and build the engine for thier German Touring Cars competitor, which led to a very nutty merc hologulation special). Today the main focus of the company is Ford and they supply the engine to Colin McRae's WRC Focus as well as the F1 Jags. Now that Ford have re-discovered an interest (in Europe at least) in 'Fast Fords' rumours are flying of a Focus Cosworth (STG25Kish, 0-60 in around 5 secs, top speed 120+, drool, drool, drool....)

History lesson over ;)

[boxem]

uhm mattfoster if there is something what you don't want to have in F1 it is influance from america. they wil make it more commercial than it already is.

[molive]

Originally posted by senninha
I hope PPD will put a brazilian driver on Prost's. Not to do the same as Petrobras (Williams fuel)...

There is a gossip can have a seat for A. Pizzonia.

aonde v/ ouviu isso?
o AP não tem contrtato com o Flavio Briatore?

[DangerMouse]

As pointed out Cosworth were wholly owned by Vickers and then got bought by BAE who after owning them for a year or two broke the company up and sold it off making a tidy profit in the mean time, this is when Audi bought Cosworth, a small part of Cosworth were retained by Audi and the rest of the shop sold to Ford.

Cosworth was founded by two brilliant Lotus engineers in the early 60s. Mike Costain and Keith Duckworth left Lotus shortly after to concentrate on developing the Anglia engine for F2 racing.

Vickers owned Rolls Royce, Cosworth, Bentley amongst other big companies.

Their Cosworth DF series engine was the most successful F1 and CART engine of all time.

[Jaxs]

The purchase by BMW of Rolls Royce from BAE led to the devolvement of Cosworth, Bentley etc between themselves and VW, to the best of my knowledge Audi weren't involved

[Jaxs]

Tut, tut, Mike Costin is the Cos in Cosworth but brother Frank Costin is the aerodynamist reknown for the design of the early Lotuses, the Grand Prix Vanwall and the Costin-Amigo.Frank is the Cos in Marcos.Frank Costin and Roger Nathen designed and ran the Costin-Nathan Imp. The ' Costain' are or were a British civil engineering company.

[DangerMouse]

The VW group bought Cosworth but it was Audi (being the main motorsport arm of the VW group) that “owned” Cosworth and who were to work with them.

I’m fully aware that Frank Costin worked for Lotus – dunno what the tut tut is for, coz Mike worked for Lotus finally becoming Technical Director. A position he held for 4 years whilst at the same time building up Cosworth for which Keith had already left to work at full time..

[Jaxs]

I've just had a look at http://www.Cosworth-technology.co.uk,apparently Audi bought from Vickers, not thro VW and Ford only bought the racing division, the American and British side of Cosworth is now part of the Audi empire. Any misunderstanding, my apologies

Jack.

[senninha]

Originally posted by molive

Originally posted by senninha
I hope PPD will put a brazilian driver on Prost's. Not to do the same as Petrobras (Williams fuel)...

There is a gossip can have a seat for A. Pizzonia.

aonde v/ ouviu isso?
o AP não tem contrtato com o Flavio Briatore?

Parece que o Briatore ofereceu um contrato leolino para Pizzonia (5 anos) e não houve acerto...
ACHO que li no site do Teo Jose (Amigos da Velocidade).