54 replies to this topic

[AyePirate]

I've seen a few pictures posted in the "Reader Comments" of a
CART spec Ferrari from the 80's. Does anyone have any further details?
Did this car come close to running in the series? or was it a pure
leverage maneuver?

Thanks
AyePirate

[This message has been edited by AyePirate (edited 05-03-2000).]

[Eric McLoughlin]

As far as I know, Ferrari had no real intention to race the car in CART. It was designed to demonstrate to FIA/FOCA that Ferrari had the resouces to ditch F1 and move elsewhere if pushed around too much by the governing body.

[Don Capps]

Eric is correct that it was a "demo" to the Powers-that-be in the FISA that Ferrari could go elsewhere.... I have always been sorry that was the case. Gee, it would have been really neat regardless of the outcome.

------------------
Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

Semper Gumbi: If this was easy, we’d have the solution already…

[This message has been edited by Don Capps (edited 05-04-2000).]

[Duane]

I know Rahal tested a CART car a Fiorano back in the eighties, but did he have anything to do with the Ferrari CART and was he possibly nominated as the driver to be if Ferrari went to Indy?

[Dave Ware]

Rahal's biography devotes most of a chapter to the Ferrari CART effort. (Why didn't I just bring that book to work with me today?)

I'll check the book again after the weekend, but from what I remember it was the real deal, or at least Rahal thought so.

The "Alfa Romero" engine that Pat Patrick used in CART (w/ Danny Sullivan driving) was really the four year old Ferrari engine that was built for Rahal.

Dave

[Falcadore]

the Ferrari Indycar was coverred at length in the Atlas FAQ.
http://www.atlasf1.c...review/faq.html

[RedFever]

I read that in March of 1987, Enzo Ferrari called a press conference and presented the Ferrari FC87, a car designed to meet the CART regulations. Designed by Gustav Brunner, with a massive turbo V8 engine of 2648 cc, 710 bhp, 11500 rpm. Its weight was 703 kg and utilized the best ground effect with low and wide sidepods, and the fuel intake.

Apparently Michele Alboreto and the American Cart driver Bobby Rahal ran few laps in Fiorano in front of the press.

Apparently Ferrari had used the FC87 as a threat to get the FIA and FOCA to meet and sign the actual Formula One design. I guess it worked, because within a month, the car already forgotten by the Scuderia, the new agreements were sealed and approved.

Does anyone have a picture of it???

[Ray Bell]

There was a thread about this car a few months ago... I think someone posted a picture.

[Jonathan]

I know I have seen pictures of the car. Maybe I can E-mail then to you if I see them... But I havent seen anything on the web about this car.

[rainern]

I have put out a couple of pictures of the car and it´s engine here :
http://w1.859.telia....Indy-engine.jpg
http://w1.859.telia....errari-indy.jpg

Rainer

[rolando]

You can find more info here:

http://www.atlasf1.c...review/faq.html

[rainern]

Rolando
Your second image is not the Ferrari indycar.
It is Alboreto driving an engine test muletta, clearly an adapted March 85C.

Rainer

[RedFever]

they did look different!!!!

Thanks guys

[Dave Ware]

Bobby Rahal's biography devotes a chapter to this Ferrari/Indy "project." Some good info and antidotes. For instance, whilst in Italy Rahal ran into two people who also had ties w/ CART, and of course they really didn't believe him when he told them he was just visiting. Worth checking out.

Four years later the engine was rebranded as an Alfa Romero and used in Pat Patrick's champ car effort...an effort that came to virtually nothing, in terms of results.

Dave

[tonicco]

Hello,

I've just read an article concerning Gustav Brunner leaving Minardi en route to Toyota.

In the text there's a mention to the CART Ferrari program, as folows:

"The tale of the red CART horse is a worthy diversion: Enzo Ferrari, in 1987, was faced with FIA/FOCA draft regulations which proposed that V8 naturally aspirated engines succeed turbo engines as from 1989. Il Commendatore wanted a V12. The rulers stuck to their guns. Enzo commissioned and built a CART racer. The FIA relented.)".

At this point, and have no recollection whatsowever on this subject, I would like to ask if someone can tell me if this car was ever built (even if I'm pretty sure that it never competed).

And, if it was built, was it tested? Is there any photos available?

Thanks in advance,

[Bernd]

The car is in the Ferrari Museum at Modena. I have a picture somewhere I'll post it if I can find it.

[Leif Snellman]

As I understandi it the 2.65 litre V8 engine Ferrari made to the car was later renamed Alfa Romeo and used by Patrick Racing at Indianapolis 1990.

[cjpani]

Tonicco, look here:

http://www.atlasf1.c...review/faq.html

and here:

http://www.atlasf1.c...errari AND CART

Best regards,
cjpani

[Dave Ware]

Bobby Rahal's biography devotes a chapter to that "episode." Worth reading.

An interesting aside is that the project was secret, or at least Rahal's participation was secret, and Rahal would go to Italy to work on the project and run into people he knew, like Masten Gregory, who would wonder what he was doing there.

[bobbo]

Tonicco:IIRC, there is a great photo of the CART Ferrari somewhwere in the "Ferrari at Indianapolis" thread. You might look that one up.

[cjpani]

Originally posted by bobbo
Tonicco:IIRC, there is a great photo of the CART Ferrari somewhwere in the "Ferrari at Indianapolis" thread. You might look that one up.

Which is why I posted such link above ;)

[marglar]

One of the guys i work with told me that Ferrari had designed and built an Indycar in the hopes of winning the 500 back in 1986 (?). I believe he said it was only run once before a handful of press before it was scrapped shortly after. Does anyone here have any information or pics of it or know of a site where i can find some? Thanks.

[Megatron]

It was supposed to be run in 1987 by Bobby Rahal with a possible second car for Indy for Andrea de Ceseris.

It was a hybrid of the March 85C that Truesports gave Ferrrai and their own Grand Prix car.

It was in reality a tool for Enzo Ferrari to get his way. Perhaps the last great "cue" for the old man.

Its engine was reserected in 1989 and served as the Alfa Romeo engine, which was soon fitted to a specially made March for Roberto Gurrero and later Danny Sullivan, with the odd car being filled for Al Unser Sr. Its power output never got within 100 HP of the Chevy and Fiat shamefully withdrew the project at the conclusion of 1991. Patrick did ship a Chevy down to Italy and Alfa ran it on a test dyno, which is why Patrick had to sell to Rahal in 1992. Ilmor refused to supply him with engines...

Rahal never tested it, but Alberteto did, at the teams test track.

It had a nice Alfa clover on the engine cover.

[Flicker]

Look here http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=18425


Pic from Rainer Nyberg

[Flicker]

And some info You can find in Atlas F1 FAQ by M.A.Jones:

http://www.atlasf1.c...review/faq.html

[biercemountain]

In a similar vein, Lotus apparently built, but never raced a CART car. I read that changes to the regulations made it obsolete before it could even compete.

Anyone have any info on this car?

[Gary C]

There's a couple of pictures of the Lotus Indycar in the 'Lotus at Indianpolis' book by Andrew Ferguson. I THINK it was the type 96, and guys, IT IS GEORGEOUS!! Sorry, can't remeber anymore details, I'll have a look when I get back home.

[markm]

I have a recollection of there also being a Ligier indycar mentioned in Autosport at about the same time. Any details??

[Jhope]

Originally posted by Gary C
There's a couple of pictures of the Lotus Indycar in the 'Lotus at Indianpolis' book by Andrew Ferguson. I THINK it was the type 96, and guys, IT IS GEORGEOUS!! Sorry, can't remeber anymore details, I'll have a look when I get back home.

If it is possible, can you please post a picture of this Lotus Indy Car I have never heard of?

[Winegod]

Car and Driver had a nice article about Ferrari's attempt to win the 500 in the 50s or 60s! I don't remember much about it, but it was an issue of last year.

[fines]

The Ligier looked vaguely like the JS23, was called LC02 and ran at Long Beach (Kevin Cogan, 28th, first out with a broken driveshaft), Phoenix (Michael Chandler, 29th, dns, too slow) and Indianapolis (Cogan, dnq), after which it was quietly replaced with an Eagle. The team was Curb Racing.

[ray b]

was a ferrari indy car mid 50's on the andri idoria liner that was sunk by hitting the stockhome on way over to race?? still there??

[biercemountain]

I found a designation number for the Lotus CART car on race-cars.com, but no photo. I'll keep trying.

"Type 96 1984 1 Indy car project abandoned due to CART rule change"

Maybe someone who owns the Lotus at Indy book can scan the photo and post it. Pleeeeeeeease!

[Frank de Jong]

OK here we go. It's from "Lotus all the cars"

1984, Cosworth DFX engine.

The Ligier-Curb:

1984, same engine.

Why not a few more:
Orbitor, 1980:

Based on March 792 tub. Cosworth engine.

Longhorn, 1981:

Based on a Williams FW07. Cosworth engine.

Theodore T84:

Cosworth engine, driven by Giacomelli.

[FLB]

The 96 was to be fielded by Roy Winkleman, of 1960's F2 fame. They had official support from Cosworth, which scared the CART teams at the time. They were afraid they'd get preferential treatment. Nowadays, they'd be welcomed with open arms.

The original driver was supposed to be Al Unser, Jr. He went to Sheirson when the project failed. Willy T. Ribbs was also in the frame.

The Lotus had a carbon-honeycomb chassis, built to Lotus's "Kellog Box" method. Gérard Ducarouge had designed it. That wasn't weel-recieved as well, because CART didn't want to become F1 and see the budgets sky-rocket.

Internal politics also played a role in the project's failure. You see, Lotus had just hired a young Brazilian who didn't think it would be prudent to spread Team's ressources... Renault's management was also apparently less than enthusiatic about the whole thing.

But, ultimately, what killed it was Winkleman's lack of a proper budget.

[Marco94]

ray b,

The ship you are refering to is the Andrea Doria, but I have no idea if a Ferrari was aboard that ship heading for Indy. Why don't you check out http://www.andreadoria.org/.

[Rainer Nyberg]

Here is the Williams FW07 clone from 1982.
Longhorn LR02 driven by Al Unser sr, at Indy.

[Rainer Nyberg]

Btw the 1956 Indy 500 was held May, 30th and the collision between the liners occurred at July 25th so if a Ferrari was aboard then it was not for Indy.

Btw the Stockholm liner still sails the seas, but rebuilt beyond recognition.

You may visit a website of a friend of mine.
She maintains a nice site about ships from all over the world.

The former Stockholm is here :
http://w1.828.telia....olm1948Eng.html

Main page in english is here :
http://w1.828.telia....9/indexeng.html

[ghinzani]

When did CART allow carbon complete chassis? Was it the March Porsche?

[Tony Matthews]

When did CART allow carbon complete chassis? Was it the March Porsche?

I am relying on a memory that frequently fails me, but I think the March-Porsche 90P was designed and built with a pure carbon/honeycomb tub, but at the last minute they were told that it would not pass scrutineering without an ali skin to the lower half, which had to be hastily added, at great inconvenience and expense. I hope someone can verify this...

Edited to say that the contemporary Penske had an ali lower tub, Perhaps March tried to jump the gun and were caught out...The 90P was all carbon.

Edited by Tony Matthews, 01 July 2009 - 22:10.

[Bruno]

Fiorano 1987 Michele Alboreto:

[Henri Greuter]

photo: B²

A photo I took of the Ferrari IndyCar on display at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway museum in, what I remember to be, 1998 or '99.

Brian

I think it must have been early 1994 Brian. I saw the car late January 1994 in the Museum as well, in between the Gurthrie Wildcat and the Porsche
When I was back at indy in May, it was, regrettably gone.

But I still bless my luck to have seen the car at, of all places, Indianapolis...



Henri

[ghinzani]

Fiorano 1987 Michele Alboreto:

Thats an 85 March? Didnt Rahal and Turesports test around 85/86 at Fiorano? And Michele jumped in for a run too?

[RA Historian]

Thats an 85 March? Didnt Rahal and Turesports test around 85/86 at Fiorano? And Michele jumped in for a run too?

I believe that you are quite correct. As part of its exploration of an Indy attempt with Ferrari, Truesports did indeed ship a March 85C over to Maranello for testing and comparison purposes. This photo shows Alboreto having some fun, as I suspect that he never had driven an Indy car before. Although he was, of course, quite versed in turbos.

Regarding Brian's photo of the car at the IMS Museum, I wonder if they still have it. When I was there I did not see it, but it is well known that the Museum has a large store of cars off display at any given time. Perhaps this car has rotated in and out a few times in the past decade or so.

Tom

[Duane]

I saw the car at the Galleria Ferrari in Maranello in May 2001.
Is there just the one chassis?

[Arjan de Roos]

The Ferrari Indy project is a very special project within Ferrari history. The car itself disappeared for a number of years after the project had its succesful effect. It only resurfaced in the mid nineties appearing at the Galleria Ferrari on and off, mixing with other exhibitions around the world. More info:
http://forix.autospo...ca-ferrari.html

The Alfa Indy is often believed to be a copy of the Ferrari 034 Indy engine. This not the case according to accounts we found. Alfa did wise by buying a chassis and concentrate on developping the engine.
http://forix.autospo...ca-morales.html

Yes, there was only one chassis.

[RA Historian]

Alfa did wise by buying a chassis and concentrate on developping the engine.

Fat lot of good it did them!
Tom

[Bruno]

Thats an 85 March? Didnt Rahal and Turesports test around 85/86 at Fiorano? And Michele jumped in for a run too?

oup's. . . scuse my, is just.

[Henri Greuter]

Fat lot of good it did them!
Tom

In all fairness to Alfa Romeo, they can't be held responsible for the fact that March collapsed in 1989 and 1990. That was something beyond their control.


Henri

[RA Historian]

In all fairness to Alfa Romeo, they can't be held responsible for the fact that March collapsed in 1989 and 1990. That was something beyond their control.
Henri

Henri, how does that pertain to the use of Lola chassis from mid 1990 through the end of the experiment in 1991?
Tom