108 replies to this topic

[johnmhinds]

We probably all knew adding the kink to the main straight was a dumb idea.

And here we have the reason why explained in spectacular fashion.

Edited by johnmhinds, 23 May 2010 - 12:22.

[stevvy1986]

Bloody hell, big smash. There's another GT race on at Imola as we speak..........well, it was, but it was red flagged on lap 1 after a big crash.

[jk]

To be fair, that crash could also have happened on the old layout. The danger with the long straight, is the speed at Tamburello. Not the start.

[Ross Stonefeld]

It happened in an area of the track that is unchanged. It also happened in a straight line and from a standing start. It could have happened at any road course in the world.

[screamingV16]

Looks more like poor driving standards to me, i mean the track is wide enough! Anyway haven't they just reverted the last Imola chicane back to its original spec in the 70's?

[johnmhinds]

It happened in an area of the track that is unchanged. It also happened in a straight line and from a standing start. It could have happened at any road course in the world.

It clearly all started when the cars were pushed wide at the new kink. And they all bounced off the walls down the straight

Edited by johnmhinds, 23 May 2010 - 12:35.

[screamingV16]

It clearly all started when the cars were pushed wide at the new kink.

The cars weren't pushed wide by some invisable force, the drivers made poor judgement over using track that wasn't there, or was Alonso pushed into the barrier at Monaco the other week because the track bent round? Just as well they dont race at Brand Hatch!

[mtknot]

That looked like bad driving... and a rather hilarious sequence of events.

[Atreiu]

I think it was poor driving as well.

[Talking Point]

Imola is a great track IMO; it's a real shame it's not on the calendar anymore.

[Clatter]

Really cannot see how the track was to blame, that was just poor driving standards on display.

And the only reason F1 isn't at Imola is money.

Edited by Clatter, 23 May 2010 - 13:13.

[stevewf1]

Where is this new kink? Did they "shortcut" the chicane before the start/finish straight?

[johnmhinds]

How can the track not be to blame?

The cars all started well and they were funnelled into the wall by the new kink right after the start line.

If the track was still straight they wouldn't have all drifted wide into the wall.

Sure the driving quality wasn't great (you can obviously say that for any accident), but the poor track design was at fault for them coming together right after the start.

Edited by johnmhinds, 23 May 2010 - 13:26.

[screamingV16]

Where is this new kink? Did they "shortcut" the chicane before the start/finish straight?

Yes, I'm sure this is in effect not far of the original design of that part of the track. Been looking for a old circuit diagram, but can't find one.

[screamingV16]

If the track was still straight they wouldn't have all drifted wide into the wall.

As I said you can say the same of any crash... "if the circuit did not bend there I wouldn't gave gone off" . It's up to the drivers to find a safe way though, not all bundle in hoping it will sort itself out some how, or would you say the Trulli/Sutil crash at last years Brazil Gp was the fault of the track?

Edited by screamingV16, 23 May 2010 - 13:31.

[stevewf1]

Yes, I'm sure this is in effect not far of the original design of that part of the track. Been looking for a old circuit diagram, but can't find one.

Does this help?

http://www.etrackson...taly/imola.html

[screamingV16]

Does this help?

http://www.etrackson...taly/imola.html

That's as it was prior the recent modifications. This is the oldest map I've found http://www.f1db.com/...d/19810503#1980 which is as it was in 1994. I have read that originally it didn't have chicanes at Variante Alta, Acque Minerali and Varianti Bassa. Must have been a very fast flat-out blast, but I don't think F1 cars ever ran on such layout?

[chdphd]

This page shows all the previous configurations:

http://theracingline.../Imola1954.html

[johnmhinds]

I can't find any map of the new layout.

But in this image you can see how all the cars are all heading towards the left of the track after the new location of the start finish straight


There is no way you'll be able to hug the right hand side of the start finish line (you probably don't even want to with all the dirt out on that side) so once you've got 2-3 cars wide everybody heads straight to the scene of the accident on the left hand wall and bounces straight back into the path of the cars behind them.

It's an awful design.

[jeze]

Well, have the start after the kink, and it will be better...

[Lights]

Has nothing to do with the track. Poor judgement/lack of spatial awareness. Can happen at any circuit.

There's nothing wrong with Imola. I really hope it will once return to F1.

[stevewf1]

That's as it was prior the recent modifications. This is the oldest map I've found http://www.f1db.com/...d/19810503#1980 which is as it was in 1994. I have read that originally it didn't have chicanes at Variante Alta, Acque Minerali and Varianti Bassa. Must have been a very fast flat-out blast, but I don't think F1 cars ever ran on such layout?

I don't think they ever did on the original layout. The Acque Minerali section has gone through several variations including a ridiculously tight chicane one year in the early 80s, I believe.

[cheapracer]

... or was Alonso pushed into the barrier at Monaco the other week because the track bent round?

Until now I never had the realization of what danger lay in one of those dangerous bend type corners that are included in race tracks. I find it shocking and appalling and feel very bad for Alonso.

I now understand why drag racing has evolved from the old twisty circuits to modern 'no corners at all' tracks, smart guys

[pRy]

How can the track not be to blame?

The cars all started well and they were funnelled into the wall by the new kink right after the start line.

Because it wasn't the track? The cars didn't all start well.

The guy in 2nd place (yellow car) had a really poor start and the guy in 4th (black car) quickly draws side by side with him on the outside. As it happens even his start wasn't the best, and the 6th guy (blue car) made an even better start, and took to the grass to try and get by them both.

Yellow car tries to protect his position and recover from his bad start, and he touches wheels with the black car. Black car spins off to the left, and collects the ambitious blue car that was already on the grass trying his cheeky move. By the time the first contact happens they're already on the straight.

Had the yellow car in 2nd not made such a poor start and not tried to squeeze the 4th place guy, they'd have all been fine.. although that guy on the grass stood a high chance of spinning anyway but as we saw with Rosberg at Spain it's possible to recover.

Like Ross said, could have happened anywhere. That's what happens when two cars touch wheels at the start, lots of chaos. All created by the 2nd place guy making a total mess of his start.

Could have been worse, I was half expecting the video to show a car hitting that bridge.

Edited by pRy, 23 May 2010 - 14:36.

[cheapracer]

It clearly all started when the cars were pushed wide at the new kink. And they all bounced off the walls down the straight

Bullshit - it all happened and the blame goes squarely on yellow car, gridman number 2's very poor start.

Then the very same guy (yellow car) for some unbelievable reason drove the other 2 off the track.

Hope the Idiot takes a fall for it.

[Clatter]

How can the track not be to blame?

The cars all started well and they were funnelled into the wall by the new kink right after the start line.

If the track was still straight they wouldn't have all drifted wide into the wall.

Sure the driving quality wasn't great (you can obviously say that for any accident), but the poor track design was at fault for them coming together right after the start.

Because there are many tracks with bends just after the Start and they don't all crash at them. How many other races has there been with this configuration without incident? It's the drivers job to steer the car around the track, this kink didn't suddenly appear just before the start, so any failure to negoitate it is 100% the fault of the drivers.

[PayasYouRace]

That kind of accident could happen at any track. It was just a result of poor choices by the drivers behind the slow starting P2 car. There have been similar accidents in Formula 1 too. Off the top of my head, Portugal 1995 and Alonso at Monza in 2003. That part of the track is fairly wide anyway. As wide as the pre-Tilke F1 tracks I'd say. Maybe like Hungaroring, Barcelona, etc.

The kink is unavoidable anyway because that's the shape of the track. There was just a chicane masking it for many years. It's similar to the 3rd chicane at old Hockenheim. Actually I'm surprised that so few people can tell that the new grid is where the old Variante Bassa was and that the straight where the crash happened is where the old grid was.

[PayasYouRace]

Because there are many tracks with bends just after the Start and they don't all crash at them. How many other races has there been with this configuration without incident? It's the drivers job to steer the car around the track, this kink didn't suddenly appear just before the start, so any failure to negoitate it is 100% the fault of the drivers.

In fact, in the picture you quoted, you can see the virtually mirror-image kink that the F1 cars negotiated immediately after the start without problems for most of the period 1980-2006

[Rob G]

Here's a comparison between old and new. The only thing different about that section of track seems to be the position of the starting grid.

I don't think the track had much to do with it. Sure there's a kink there, but there's a fast kink after the start at Magny-Cours and Montreal, and nobody seemed to have any trouble there. It's just one of those things that happens from time to time.

Bullshit - it all happened and the blame goes squarely on yellow car, gridman number 2's very poor start.

Then the very same guy (yellow car) for some unbelievable reason drove the other 2 off the track.

Hope the Idiot takes a fall for it.

I think that's a little harsh. He had a slow start, but he didn't make any aggressive swerves and left enough room for a car to his left. He probably just didn't realize that the second car was there. Not great judgment, but just a racing accident IMO.

[Lights]

In fact, in the picture you quoted, you can see the virtually mirror-image kink that the F1 cars negotiated immediately after the start without problems for most of the period 1980-2006

Yes indeed, and I can remember some incidents happening there at the outside line aswell, wheels in the grass etc. It's part of racing.
This thread is like posting a bad crash from any series at any track and say 'The reason F1 shouldn't drive here'. I don't get it.

[Tenmantaylor]

When I first watched this I didnt realise they had realigned the grid at an angle with a kink to the right onto the alignment that was the previous SF F1 grid straight. The kink definately played a part in the accident but it was poor driving also. Are they any other tracks in high end motorsport where a kink has to be negotiated right after the SF line when drivers are most focused on each other?

[HoldenRT]

Imola is like a Tilke dome with carpark runoffs compared to Monaco and last week all the F1 drivers managed that fine.

[Lights]

Here's a comparison between old

If I watch that I just think, what a shame it's not on the calender anymore. It had such a nice flow through it, especially from 0:38 onwards.

[Disgrace]

Just another flop series.

Superleague, A1GP, AutoGP, F2, Euroseries F3.

The list is endless.

Edited by Disgrace, 23 May 2010 - 15:29.

[wj_gibson]

When I first watched this I didnt realise they had realigned the grid at an angle with a kink to the right onto the alignment that was the previous SF F1 grid straight. The kink definately played a part in the accident but it was poor driving also. Are they any other tracks in high end motorsport where a kink has to be negotiated right after the SF line when drivers are most focused on each other?

The Valencia street circuit has almost the precise same configuration, and F1 is quite happy to go there.

[Henrytheeigth]

Just another flop series.

Superleague, A1GP, AutoGP, F2, Euroseries F3.

The list is endless.

Yea it's a Disgrace

[Don_Humpador]

I don't see any correlation between the kink and the crash.

[Tenmantaylor]

The Valencia street circuit has almost the precise same configuration, and F1 is quite happy to go there.

Well spotted but a) its a couple hundred metres further on and b) I dont think you'll find anyone happy to go there...

[PayasYouRace]

Well spotted but a) its a couple hundred metres further on and b) I dont think you'll find anyone happy to go there...;)

No. At Valencia the kink is immediately after pole position, but I can understand you not wanting to go there.

See? http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/2033205

Edited by PayasYouRace, 23 May 2010 - 15:42.

[Clatter]

I don't see any correlation between the kink and the crash.

They occur at about the same place, and that's as close at it gets.

[Hairpin]

Lot of blame on the yellow car. In reality it is very difficult to know what happens to a car outside of a car outside of you. Kimi and Ralf was probably not aware of eachother here:


About the crash that is the topic for this thread - I definitely think the kink is to blame since it is hard enough to maneuver through a field of open wheelers on a straight and a full throttle kink can easily upset the balance.

[sw6569]

Lot of blame on the yellow car. In reality it is very difficult to know what happens to a car outside of a car outside of you. Kimi and Ralf was probably not aware of eachother here:


About the crash that is the topic for this thread - I definitely think the kink is to blame since it is hard enough to maneuver through a field of open wheelers on a straight and a full throttle kink can easily upset the balance.

That video certainly makes me miss a Williams car capable of winning!

Anyway, not to derail the thread on my first post

I'd say that the crash could have taken place anywhere personally. The track design isn't great - but thats a personal opinion which I don't think had that much affect on the crash. It was a series of fairly strange incidents strung together. There is a reason those guys don't drive F1 cars too!

[Radoye]

Nothing wrong with the track there.

[Foxy]

Imola is the nicest track to go to watch a GP in person imo. The public are in the centre of the track which is a public park, this makes it easy to walk to all parts of the track and watch bits of practice, qualifying etc from different corners.

Bring back Imola

[Augurk]

So how come we're still racing in Spa?

[Fastcake]

Well that's why those drivers aren't in F1. They're not the best hence the big accident.

[johnmhinds]

So how come we're still racing in Spa?

Yeah that track that got rid of the kink in it's s/f straight....

The examples of Montreal and Mangy-Cours are flawed because of the 200-300m of track before the kinks on those tracks which tends to sort the cars out so they are at most 2 cars wide

The kink at Imola is right at the start line, which is a dumb thing to do when you've nearly always got cars going 3-4 wide over the start line.

Edited by johnmhinds, 23 May 2010 - 19:57.

[Gilles4Ever]

Yeah that track that got rid of the kink in it's s/f straight....

The examples of Montreal and Mangy-Cours are flawed because of the 200-300m of track before the kinks on those tracks which tends to sort the cars out so they are at most 2 cars wide

The kink at Imola is right at the start line, which is a dumb thing to do when you've nearly always got cars going 3-4 wide over the start line.

Out of interest do you have any figures of how many startline accidents at Imola compared to say Silverstone?

[The Lonely]

Why dont they just have the start after the kink? in normal racing it wouldnt be a problem. However if there isnt enough space after the kink, just have them start from that other bit of tarmac too only on the first lap. (Motorcycle Chicane?)

[LittleChris]

I don't think they ever did on the original layout. The Acque Minerali section has gone through several variations including a ridiculously tight chicane one year in the early 80s, I believe.

Jim Clark won the F1 race there in 1963 in the days when non championship F1 races far outnumbered World Championship ones.



The tight Acque Minerale chicane was there from around 1980 when Imola was rebuilt for it's one off Italian GP until the 1995 rebuild when Imola was completely buggered up in the over reaction to the sad events of the previous year. The loss of the chicane in question being the only positive thing that happened IMHO.