126 replies to this topic

[windmill]

It shows that it has been an entertaining race when there hasn't been much comment made about the Alonso/Hamilton pitlane race.

Given the penatlties given for all sorts of other infractions of the rules it is amazing that nothing has been done about this !

Perhaps there isn't any rule about it so there are none to break. Doesn'y anyone else regard this as dangerous ?

This is the second example of the cars "racing " each other down the pitlane this year.

What has happened to the rule of "unsafe release " and the new rule this year of "50 metres clearance before releasing a car" ?

There is a one car wide lane in the pits, safety should be paramount, the car in the pitlane has priority, racing is done on the track.

Can anyone give some background on the official position on this ?

Thanks

[skinnyman]

...
What has happened to the rule of "unsafe release " and the new rule this year of "50 metres clearance before releasing a car" ?
...

It was Hamilton, he only gets reprimands, small fines or nothing

[marchi-91]

It shows that it has been an entertaining race when there hasn't been much comment made about the Alonso/Hamilton pitlane race.

Given the penatlties given for all sorts of other infractions of the rules it is amazing that nothing has been done about this !

Perhaps there isn't any rule about it so there are none to break. Doesn'y anyone else regard this as dangerous ?

This is the second example of the cars "racing " each other down the pitlane this year.

What has happened to the rule of "unsafe release " and the new rule this year of "50 metres clearance before releasing a car" ?

There is a one car wide lane in the pits, safety should be paramount, the car in the pitlane has priority, racing is done on the track.

Can anyone give some background on the official position on this ?

Thanks

It wasn't Schumacher so Brundle doesn't care.

[Captain Tightpants]

What has happened to the rule of "unsafe release " and the new rule this year of "50 metres clearance before releasing a car" ?

From memory, both drivers were launched very close together. By the time Hamilton was committed, Alonso was already in the fast lane. The stewards can't penalise the teams for doing a fast stop, can they?

[Alfisti]

If I see the word dangerous again someone's gonna get a backhand. With no refuelling, F1 cars tootling along at 80 clicks or whatever ... i mean ... how the **** is that dangerous?

[A Wheel Nut]

From memory, both drivers were launched very close together. By the time Hamilton was committed, Alonso was already in the fast lane. The stewards can't penalise the teams for doing a fast stop, can they?

No, but they can penalise them for making an unsafe release.

What happens if there's contact?

What happens if another team further up the lane decided that 'hey, we'll throw a third car in to the mix', and the result is an accident in pitlane? Do you penalise only the third driver? He only did what Hamilton did.

[Captain Tightpants]

What happens if another team further up the lane decided that 'hey, we'll throw a third car in to the mix', and the result is an accident in pitlane? Do you penalise only the third driver? He only did what Hamilton did.

No, you penalise the third driver. His team would have seen them coming.

When Hamilton and Alonso pulled into pit, they were still racing. And part of that race was in getting away from the pit box. McLaren were no doubt counting on Hamilton being able to get away faster and cleaner than the Ferrari. It didn't happen. And yes, a penalty probably should have been issued - but as we've seen from the stewards this year, they are very hesitant to interfere with the racing unless they absolutely have to (the different interpretations of the rule book in Monaco demanded that the stewards take a side). I'm guessing that's the influence of the former drivers on the panel who are no doubt telling the other stewards that in the heat of the moment that is racing, you don't always have time to identify the rules to the letter.

[A Wheel Nut]

If I see the word dangerous again someone's gonna get a backhand. With no refuelling, F1 cars tootling along at 80 clicks or whatever ... i mean ... how the **** is that dangerous?

The only danger I see is a) pitlane being blocked, or b) a mechanic being hit by a car avoiding an accident. I imagine getting hit by an F1 car at 80 clicks hurts..;)

And as unlikely as it seems, you can't really say 'it'll never happen', cos I never thought I'd see an F1 car hit the medical car either!

[teejay]

The pitlane in Canada is pretty much 4 cars wide, so you can drive side by side safely.

[Cenotaph]

...

its the great new stewarding, everything allowed just dont overtake someone under green flags. zOMG zOMG

Seriously though, i think there was no reason for a penalty there. the unsafe release thing was already crazy enough in previous years

[A Wheel Nut]

No, you penalise the third driver. His team would have seen them coming.

When Hamilton and Alonso pulled into pit, they were still racing. And part of that race was in getting away from the pit box. McLaren were no doubt counting on Hamilton being able to get away faster and cleaner than the Ferrari. It didn't happen. And yes, a penalty probably should have been issued - but as we've seen from the stewards this year, they are very hesitant to interfere with the racing unless they absolutely have to (the different interpretations of the rule book in Monaco demanded that the stewards take a side). I'm guessing that's the influence of the former drivers on the panel who are no doubt telling the other stewards that in the heat of the moment that is racing, you don't always have time to identify the rules to the letter.

Yeah but racing should stop in the pitlane..

It's tough tho, cos it's not like McLaren had a slow stop and the released Hamilton, rather it seems like Hamilton had a slow get away, which allowed Alonso past.

[stevewf1]

If I see the word dangerous again someone's gonna get a backhand. With no refuelling, F1 cars tootling along at 80 clicks or whatever ... i mean ... how the **** is that dangerous?

You can't backhand the coddled generation, can you?

[teejay]

Yeah but racing should stop in the pitlane..

It's tough tho, cos it's not like McLaren had a slow stop and the released Hamilton, rather it seems like Hamilton had a slow get away, which allowed Alonso past.

Mclaren had a right rear issue which slowed them.

[A Wheel Nut]

Mclaren had a right rear issue which slowed them.

Ah I didn't see that. Then maybe McLaren shouldn't have released him.

[pingu666]

you guys who dont like racing in the pitlane should watch nascar ;)

[Mary Popsins]

It shows that it has been an entertaining race when there hasn't been much comment made about the Alonso/Hamilton pitlane race.

There's not much to say about it. They are not from the same team and they were racing each other.

The main interest of the race was the battle between Alonso and Hamilton. It didn't happen in the pits only, and that's the best show F1 can give. (note that there was no red light on this year..).

If there is anything to investigate here it would be the way Kubika entered the pitlane to the risk of chopping Sutil.

[Velocifer]

Haven't you leared anything watching this 'sport'?

This is F1. Rules like unsafe release with possible crash and hurt/killed pit crew means nothing if its application will hurt the championship closeness and thereby TV ratings and the bottom line.

Things like changing a broken car part in the garage between qualifying and the race will however incur an immediate and harsh grid drop penalty..

This is only F1 remember.

[Lazarus II]

There was an unsafe release? where? when? who got hurt? are they ok? how bad? has anyone notified the next of kin?

RIP brother. Thanks for all you've done to entertain me for the last 38yrs watching F1. I'll never forget you and all you've done to contibute to F1.

[hunnylander]

Haven't you leared anything watching this 'sport'?

This is F1. Rules like unsafe release with possible crash and hurt/killed pit crew means nothing if its application will hurt the championship closeness and thereby TV ratings and the bottom line.

Things like changing a broken car part in the garage between qualifying and the race will however incur an immediate and harsh grid drop penalty..

This is only F1 remember.

You're wrong.

Cars are allowed to go side by side in the pitlane, they are even allowed to use the service road. The mechanics are banned from there during the race.

And overtaking by speed difference couldn't be done in the pitlane as the cars are on the limiter. Also they are relatively slow there and have the right to keep even side by side position to prepare for a good launch and fight when the limiter is off. The road back to the track is freaking wide to race, and there was nothing wrong done neither by Lewis or Fernando.

Stop whining about unsafe release, there was no that, not even in China in the Vettel-Hamilton fight. When McLaren released the car, more precisely when the chief mechanics decided the release is safe to do, there was no car on the side next to the McLaren. And humans have response time, latency between thinking, decision and acting, the acts of chief mechanic, the driver, the car, all have latency and in the meantime the situation can change.

Edited by hunnylander, 14 June 2010 - 05:38.

[black magic]

perhaps you should read the previous threads related to china

the rule is clear and fia has more than once stated it will not be tolerated in the interests of safety namely the pitcrews

pretty clear really. the rule is clear as is the penalty

except fia refuses to enforce the rule

[Ricardo F1]

It was Hamilton, he only gets reprimands, small fines or nothing

Possibly the most penalized person on the grid, mostly for doing nothing, and you take this tact? Nice.

It wasn't an unsafe release (Alonso was right behind him, not trundling down the pitlane for half a mile) and Hamilton acted extremely well to the situation. Absolutely nothing wrong with any of it.

[stevewf1]

Anyone remember the days when there were no pit-lane speed limits? I remember reading that when Arie Luyendyk won Indy in 1990, he was hitting the pit lane at 210 mph...

[hunnylander]

perhaps you should read the previous threads related to china

the rule is clear and fia has more than once stated it will not be tolerated in the interests of safety namely the pitcrews

pretty clear really. the rule is clear as is the penalty

except fia refuses to enforce the rule

You know what is clear, your utopistic mind, that.

Situations aren't always black and white.

[Velocifer]

Cars are allowed to go side by side in the pitlane

That's not the issue here.

And stop your whining.

[Al.]

You're wrong.

Cars are allowed to go side by side in the pitlane, they are even allowed to use the service road. The mechanics are banned from there during the race.

And overtaking by speed difference couldn't be done in the pitlane as the cars are on the limiter. Also they are relatively slow there and have the right to keep even side by side position to prepare for a good launch and fight when the limiter is off. The road back to the track is freaking wide to race, and there was nothing wrong done neither by Lewis or Fernando.

Stop whining about unsafe release, there was no that, not even in China in the Vettel-Hamilton fight. When McLaren released the car, more precisely when the chief mechanics decided the release is safe to do, there was no car on the side next to the McLaren. And humans have response time, latency between thinking, decision and acting, the acts of chief mechanic, the driver, the car, all have latency and in the meantime the situation can change.

I guess there's no rule about racing down the pitlane. The line about mechanics is irrelavent. Look at the the run Hamilton and Vettel had before in China.
.
I would have thought this incident would have led to the setting of some ground rules, as thus far these have happened with no teams servicing theiir cars further down the pitlane.
It's going to take a car snaging an air hose and being pitched into the garages, or directly hitting a mechanic thats changing the outside rear tyre of a car down the pitlane for a clarification to be sorted.

I'm not saying that these incidents warrent a penalty, I'm saying that the situation in China should have been clarified post race so that a driver being launched and then finding he's been launched (for whatever reason) into the side of a car already coming down the pitlane has to back off and drop in behind immediately. I guess one way to enforce it is to make the outside lane about the same width as 1 car and then issue a drive thru for anyone over the line after 50 metres from exiting the pits.

[hunnylander]

.

Did you read Jean Todt (FIA president) and Charlie Whiting (Race Director) comments about that incident? Vettel was the real guilty there. Charlie had a personal talk with him about it. He was penalized, even if it was a reprimand (and another 'reprimand' from the FIA president) and a talk with the race director.

There was no such forcing by intentional dirty steering between Alonso and Hamilton in Montreal. And there was no unsafe release from their teams. It's a non issue.

[JForce]

It was an "unsafe release". Not because it was actually unsafe, but because this year they introduced a set of markers in the pitlane, and each car controller has a marker about 50m down the pitlane....if another car is moving within that space, any release is deemed "unsafe".

Yes it's a stupid rule, and what happened in this race is perfectly acceptable and perfectly normal*. HOWEVER if they're going to introduce stupid rules they should enforce them, and McLaren should have got a penatly.

*the only clarification I'd like to see them make is a right-of-way rule for circuits with a narrow pit exit/pitlane. Say the car on the fast lane gets row. In fact that might already be a rule, is it?

[BigWicks]

it's pretty obvious that the the 50m unsafe release area does not include situations where two teams are next to each other in the pit lane

[BinaryDad]

It was an unsafe release by McLaren, there's no doubt about that. So it then becomes some form of monetary fine applied to the team from the stewards if they decide it warrants further action.

As for the atual racing, it was just great to watch. It was very fair racing from both drivers, but ultimately Alonso won out. You can't compare this to the incident between Vettel and Hamilton, because Alonso wasn't trying to push the other driver into the air hoses and then try and play the "who? me do anything underhand? I'm just a sweet faced young driver!" act.

The resulting chase between the McLaren and Ferrari was just nail biting stuff for me, so I'm glad the drag race in the pits happened because it set up some very entertaining racing to watch later on.

The best GP of the season so far.

[wrighty]

It was an "unsafe release". Not because it was actually unsafe, but because this year they introduced a set of markers in the pitlane, and each car controller has a marker about 50m down the pitlane....if another car is moving within that space, any release is deemed "unsafe".

Yes it's a stupid rule, and what happened in this race is perfectly acceptable and perfectly normal*. HOWEVER if they're going to introduce stupid rules they should enforce them, and McLaren should have got a penatly.

*the only clarification I'd like to see them make is a right-of-way rule for circuits with a narrow pit exit/pitlane. Say the car on the fast lane gets row. In fact that might already be a rule, is it?

does anyone have any details on the spacing from garage to garage in the pitlane? tbh i wasn't sure that Mac had released him safely, but i tend to think that if cars are in successive pitboxes at the same time (i'm not sure LH and FA were, but there must've been only one space between them) then we get into the point where the forward car can't even be released because the car in the box behind is within the 50m.......stupid rule imvho - yes, keep the unsafe release rule definitely, but prescribing a distance isn't practical in the circumstances.

[demoing]

It was an "unsafe release". Not because it was actually unsafe, but because this year they introduced a set of markers in the pitlane, and each car controller has a marker about 50m down the pitlane....if another car is moving within that space, any release is deemed "unsafe".

Yes it's a stupid rule, and what happened in this race is perfectly acceptable and perfectly normal*. HOWEVER if they're going to introduce stupid rules they should enforce them, and McLaren should have got a penatly.

*the only clarification I'd like to see them make is a right-of-way rule for circuits with a narrow pit exit/pitlane. Say the car on the fast lane gets row. In fact that might already be a rule, is it?

The one problem with your interpretation of the unsafe release rule is that when Lewis was released Alonso was not in the pit lane he was just leaving his pit and in that situation you are allowed to release your driver.

Fair play to Alonso as atlest he knows how to drive in a straight line hence why it was not even reported to the stewards.

edit wrighty the limit on distance is only if a car is using the pit lane not if it is in its pit box or just leaving its pitbox but not yet in the pitlane

Edited by demoing, 14 June 2010 - 07:34.

[velgajski1]

Given the penatlties given for all sorts of other infractions of the rules it is amazing that nothing has been done about this !

What penalties? As far as I can see only reprimands are given or no action is taken.

[Katsumi]

Did the FIA say anything about this? Did any steward say anything about it? Did Alonso say anything about it?

So why the hell is another topic opened on this? ... Every single time looking for the smallest things to open up a topic when Lewis is involved in something, did you know Lewis took a **** yesterday? ... I would open up a new topic ... Did you know he had in his earrings, i would open up a new topic ... Did you know Lewis tyres were as good as gone after the race!, I would open a topic for it ...

Sad, very sad

[Lights]

It's a dumb rule that should have been never created. This year so far it has been broken so many times already with no penalties, and rightly so, it could ruin races.

[Zoe]

Possibly the most penalized person on the grid, mostly for doing nothing, and you take this tact? Nice.

I admit that my interest in F1 has dropped significantly and I don't follow it as I used to, so maybe you can help me remembering what penalties Hamilton has gotten this year?

And no, reprimands don't count. I am sure he is trembling of fear when thinking of those, as they have zilch consequences.

Zoe

[primer]

IMO that was definitely an unsafe release by past FIA standards. But FIA are very inconsistent in these matters.

[demoing]

IMO that was definitely an unsafe release by past FIA standards. But FIA are very inconsistent in these matters.

perhaps you should check the rules and re-watch the race as clearly Lewis was released long before Alonso got into the pitlane from his pitbox.
the car has to be within 50M and in the pitlane which does not include being released from your pitbox otherwise if you are in your pit and someone was in their pitbox directly behind you, you would never be able to release your driver until the driver behind was released even if that car staid in its pitbox for 15 mins
The fact is Alonso unlike vettel drove straight down the pit lane hence both drivers were safe and did not constitute a danger to themselves or anyone else.

[Velocifer]

What penalties? As far as I can see only reprimands are given or no action is taken.

People got drive through for speeding in the pit lane.

In other words, immediate action and quite severe penalty (place drops) was taken for putting people in the pit lane at risk by doing the odd km/h over the limit, maybe even at the very exit or entry where there were few or no people.

Here a near collision was almost caused right next to where the crew of 2 teams were standing which quite frankly could have turned nasty, but it isn't even investigated, despite this very issue covered in FIA's article 23.1.

[Clatter]

There was plenty of room in the pitlane for 2 cars (it's one of the few that actually has 2 lanes), both drivers gave each other room and unlike Vettel, neither driver jinked towards the other to intimidate. I don't think there was any problem with what happened.

[pgj]

It is still dangerous. It is still a very very dumb thing to do. Someone will get killed unless the FIA changes the pit-lane rules.

The pit-lane should be narrowed so that it prevents cars running side-by-side. Cars should not be allowed to cross the while line at any point on entry or exit to the pits. It would prevent the kind of stupidity that we saw with Massa and Alonso and (Hamilton/Button?) earlier in the season.

[marcm]

If I see the word dangerous again someone's gonna get a backhand. With no refuelling, F1 cars tootling along at 80 clicks or whatever ... i mean ... how the **** is that dangerous?

Not Dangerous? Seriously?????

The pit lane speed limit is 62mph (100kph). If you get hit by a F1 car travelling at that speed I don't give you much chance of survival.

You say "Tootling along!" ... but seriously - would you stand in the middle of a dual carriageway and think it was safe???


If things carry on as they are, one day we are going to have two cars collide and one of them will spear into a group of mechanics. Someone will probably be killed and others injured. There is no need for drivers to race side by side in the pitlane - that's what the track is for.

The drivers accept a certain level of risk in taking to a race track, I think that the FIA sometimes go too far immasculating great circuits for drivers safety ... but the drivers a well rewarded for their risk (the pleasure of racing an F1 car as much as financially). It's an acceptable risk to them.

The mechanics however do this as part of their job, although it is more inherrantly risky than an office job, the huge risk they are at when two drivers race down the pitlane does not seem acceptable to me at all.

This really needs to be looked at before the fatality occurs... the sad fact is though that mechanics are pretty anonymous and I doubt a fatality anything like the effect or reaction that a driver fatality would.

[timmy bolt]

The Pitlane release rule simply doesn't work.

It always puts the car pitting further down the pitlane at a disadvantage.

The only time a release rule should be applied is when the pitlane is too narrow for two cars to safely driver side by side without being very close to the mechanics.

[Fastcake]

The two drivers were pretty much released at the same time, and then drove down the pitlane side by side- notice how they didn't try to race until they left the pitlane. Nothing wrong with that I see.

[Massacrator]

I'd ban the pit lane limitations and just make the race there instead of the circuit itself.

[timmy bolt]

You say "Tootling along!" ... but seriously - would you stand in the middle of a dual carriageway and think it was safe???

No, but i would stand on the pavement or poss the grass verge and think it was, and i wouldn't be much further away than a mechanic.

We also must remember that F1 cars are lighter (less momentum which causes the dmage in a crash), shaped so that the body is unlikely to hit any vital parts (think windscreen on body), much better brakes that can prob stop an f1 car in a third of the time (incl reaction time), but is also driven by much more talented individuals who are sitting on a speed limited going in a straight line. They prob have a nap at this point.

The only thing i think they should do is include a 2 lane pitlane with exiting cars entering the first lane and being made to cross over to the outer lane if possible, (which nine times out of ten it is).

The only time the pitlane is truly dangerous is when a clown pulls a trick like Vettel did.

[stevewf1]

Say, how about using the pit-lane speed limiters in the race itself?. Any driver who gets within 100 meters of another shall be penalized (too dangerous). Any driver exceeding the safely determined on-track speed limit shall be penalized (too dangerous).

Just like what we all do on the highways...

[pgj]

Say, how about using the pit-lane speed limiters in the race itself?. Any driver who gets within 100 meters of another shall be penalized (too dangerous). Any driver exceeding the safely determined on-track speed limit shall be penalized (too dangerous).

Just like what we all do on the highways...

If you are going to try that then each car should have a target on the back. If another driver hits it with a laser shot then 500 revs fall off the engine of the car in front for ten seconds.

[marcm]

No, but i would stand on the pavement or poss the grass verge and think it was, and i wouldn't be much further away than a mechanic.

We also must remember that F1 cars are lighter (less momentum which causes the dmage in a crash), shaped so that the body is unlikely to hit any vital parts (think windscreen on body), much better brakes that can prob stop an f1 car in a third of the time (incl reaction time), but is also driven by much more talented individuals who are sitting on a speed limited going in a straight line. They prob have a nap at this point.

The only thing i think they should do is include a 2 lane pitlane with exiting cars entering the first lane and being made to cross over to the outer lane if possible, (which nine times out of ten it is).

The only time the pitlane is truly dangerous is when a clown pulls a trick like Vettel did.

Plenty of people get killed when a car mounts the pavement or grass verge even at much lower speeds.

I'm well aware that the f1 car is lighter, however since energy squares with speed it's far more significant that they are doing 62mph .... 30 is more than enough to kill with a road car.
I agree that F1 cars are capable of stopping or slowing quickly - that's why I actually do think it was reasonable when the FIA increased the pit lane speed limit ... however wheel to wheel contact could easily launch a car into the mechanics with no chance for the driver to slow the car. It's this that I really worry about when I see the drivers squeezing each other down the pitlane.

I've spent plenty of time in pitlanes with various cars hammering down them including F1 cars, even going back to the days before pit lane speed limits. Even with current limits - it still seems bloody fast when one comes past you!

I genuninely hope I am wrong here ... but I really don't want to see a fatality in the pit lane, especially when it's so eminantly avoidable. Surely we'd rather see racing on the track rather than in the pits anyway?

Where there are 2 clear lanes in the pitlane I don't have a problem with them running side by side, but where there isn't, the driver who is slightly behind should be expected to conceed and slot in behind.

[pgj]

Plenty of people get killed when a car mounts the pavement or grass verge even at much lower speeds.

I'm well aware that the f1 car is lighter, however since energy squares with speed it's far more significant that they are doing 62mph .... 30 is more than enough to kill with a road car.
I agree that F1 cars are capable of stopping or slowing quickly - that's why I actually do think it was reasonable when the FIA increased the pit lane speed limit ... however wheel to wheel contact could easily launch a car into the mechanics with no chance for the driver to slow the car. It's this that I really worry about when I see the drivers squeezing each other down the pitlane.

I've spent plenty of time in pitlanes with various cars hammering down them including F1 cars, even going back to the days before pit lane speed limits. Even with current limits - it still seems bloody fast when one comes past you!

I genuninely hope I am wrong here ... but I really don't want to see a fatality in the pit lane, especially when it's so eminantly avoidable. Surely we'd rather see racing on the track rather than in the pits anyway?

Where there are 2 clear lanes in the pitlane I don't have a problem with them running side by side, but where there isn't, the driver who is slightly behind should be expected to conceed and slot in behind.

I would take it further and narrow the width of the pit-lane so that unless a car can be released into the the lane, it cannot run alongside another without crossing the white line and pulling a penalty. The white line should belong to the stewards for the whole pit lane, including the entrance, instead of just re-entry to the track.

We are watching an accident waiting to happen while this racing in the pit lane mentality is allowed to continue. It is a dangerous and unprofessional practice.

[Dunder]

No contact was made between them and Alonso did not have to take evasive action.

The is a big difference in this situation as compared to the Hamilton/Vettel incident in China because both drivers were sensible, drove in a straight line and were well out of the mechanics area.

I do accept that McLaren's release of Lewis was marginal but, frankly, there were 4 or 5 incidents yesterday that would be more worthy of being penalised and were not.