20 replies to this topic

[LimeyTX]

F1 is all about technology and yet it's not used in the one area where it is, in my view, really needed.
I'm very pleased that the Safety Car wasn't needed this weekend in Canada. A safety car always spoils a race for me, because it often makes a significant difference to the results. I'd prefer to leave Safety Cars and cautions to the lesser forms of racing where people go in circles, or more precisely, ovals. But long gone are the days when you can continue to race past accidents.

So clearly Safety Cars are a necessity. But can't we use technology to limit the disruption. For example, it would be fairly trivial for timing and scoring to note the gaps when the SC is deployed. Cars could then be restarted from behind the SC with the same gaps as before. The SC could flash the number of the car as it was cleared to restart, them wait and flash the number of the next car, etc. Anyone who pits under a safety car gets automatically dropped a specific number of seconds back depending on the average stop time. This number would clearly be dependent on the track.

This sounds like pretty trivial technology to employ. It would allow SCs to be deployed without significantly altering the race outcome. I felt sorry for Webber in Monaco when his lead kept getting eroded. Of course sometimes it works in someone's favor, like Hamilton in China. Being a Hamilton supporter I enjoyed watching him race back after being allowed to catch up, but it's not really fair.

I'm interested in what others think.

[Villes Gilleneuve]

Safety cars are an absolute necessity at tracks like Monaco and Montreal.
The other option is to red-flag the race, but you cannot leave a car in a runoff area. This weekend was just fortunate that no one stopped in an unsafe area.

[LimeyTX]

Safety cars are an absolute necessity at tracks like Monaco and Montreal.
The other option is to red-flag the race, but you cannot leave a car in a runoff area. This weekend was just fortunate that no one stopped in an unsafe area.

I agree - you have to have Safety Cars - I was just suggesting a way in which their use doesn't give people an unfair advantage.

[pingu666]

guess uve never seen indycars at texas.
at around 215mph average speed.

it would be a nightmare to reset the field, and have them all go at the right time

[Fastcake]

Managing a safety car is just another aspect of racing, if you get jumped at a restart, tough. If you gain a few places great - even more action for us to enjoy, and can liven up a dull race.

[CSquared]

I think it's a great idea, and it is trivial technology to employ. One potential difficulty I see: You'd probably use the gaps from the previously completed lap, so if SC is deployed on lap 10, you'd restart the cars with the gaps they had as they completed lap 9. But if a driver overtook another in the early part of lap 10, he'd lose that position, though that seems to be far less severe than everyone losing their gaps every time there's a SC.

Another problem is the guy who was just about to be lapped when lap 10 started. When he gets the "go" signal, the leader is coming around at full speed.

It's also been suggested in other places that there's an imposed, perhaps remotely, speed limit during SC periods, so the gaps would just be maintained through the whole SC period. There might be difficulties, though, with corner workers not having enough space between cars to do some work.

Saying that managing SC periods is part of racing seems to me backwards. It is certainly not part of racing to suddenly tell everyone to slow down, wipe out their gaps, bunch up, and then start racing again.

Of course, because yours is a great and easily-implemented idea, the chances of the FIA implementing it are extremely low.

[Sausage]

But it´s more exciting if the field is bunched up. Of course in the US they take it too far at times, making yellows for the races being boring and for every little piece of sh*t on the track (yes I often watch Nascar). But as long as F1 is sensible about it and really only use the safetycar when it is absolutely needed for a dangerous situation, I´m ok with it.

Of course it does suck to be the guy out front, but we´ve all been there. In the end it does create more excitement and bunches up the field. This is not bad, after all F1 is about entertainment too, no tv-viewers = no F1.

So as long as they don´t create situations on purpose or bring out the safety car in not needed situations for the sake of entertainment I think it is good for the sport.

[Captain Tightpants]

Cars could then be restarted from behind the SC with the same gaps as before. The SC could flash the number of the car as it was cleared to restart, them wait and flash the number of the next car, etc. Anyone who pits under a safety car gets automatically dropped a specific number of seconds back depending on the average stop time. This number would clearly be dependent on the track.

Sorry, but I think that would just ruin the racing.

[LimeyTX]

I think it's a great idea, and it is trivial technology to employ. One potential difficulty I see: You'd probably use the gaps from the previously completed lap, so if SC is deployed on lap 10, you'd restart the cars with the gaps they had as they completed lap 9. But if a driver overtook another in the early part of lap 10, he'd lose that position, though that seems to be far less severe than everyone losing their gaps every time there's a SC.

Another problem is the guy who was just about to be lapped when lap 10 started. When he gets the "go" signal, the leader is coming around at full speed.

It's also been suggested in other places that there's an imposed, perhaps remotely, speed limit during SC periods, so the gaps would just be maintained through the whole SC period. There might be difficulties, though, with corner workers not having enough space between cars to do some work.

Saying that managing SC periods is part of racing seems to me backwards. It is certainly not part of racing to suddenly tell everyone to slow down, wipe out their gaps, bunch up, and then start racing again.

Of course, because yours is a great and easily-implemented idea, the chances of the FIA implementing it are extremely low.

Looks like you and I are the only ones who like it. I recognize the flaws in my system but really I was attempting more to explain a principle than to lay down precise rules. To be honest, I'm not too worried by cars almost a lap down getting a little advantage - I'm trying to avoid the strategies of the leaders from being nullified. As I see it, there is enough talent in F1 circles to sort out all the kinks in the suggestion.
I am also sure that the technology exists for precise gaps to be monitored. I've sometimes caught a glimpse of the application on a screen that shows the precise position of every car on track in real time. That information could be captured.

As for those who have said the safety cars adds excitement, while I agree that is does, it's also a form of NASCARization of F1. It would be "exciting" if nails randomly sprouted from the track to cause punctures before retracting again. It would lead to spectacular accidents. Just because something is "spectacular" doesn't make it a good thing. F1 races are supposed to be long, not sprints. that's my big quibble with NASCAR - they have 600 mile races but really they are a series of 50 mile races with a final race of 2 to 3 miles. I don't want F1 to be like NASCAR. I'd hate for there to be rolling starts. The safety car is essential for safety, but its impact should be minimal. And last weekend, in Canada, there was no safety car and the race was far from boring. In fact, I think it was probably the best dry weather race I have seen in a long time.

[Lee Nicolle]

There is too many safety cars in motorsport these days. They are essential but are used far too much.
F1 could use about half as many, as most circuit racing classes. the exception is Lemans where they seldom used it. Anywhere else there would have been about 20 SC periods.
Even the ovals are rediculous, a car spins and drives off so they throw a pacecar, any excuse will do.

[metz]

I agree - you have to have Safety Cars -

What did we ever do before 1973?

[Alexis*27]

Safety cars create a 'second start' which means overtaking. Not a bad thing really?

[Crusoe]

Why use safety car at all then? Why not remotely turn on the pit limit speed for all cars, and instead of bringing out a safety car just let them go around the track at this slow speed and in the same time gaps will be maintaned? That would IMO make much more sense than what you are proposing.

Edited by Crusoe, 17 June 2010 - 15:53.

[Villes Gilleneuve]

What did we ever do before 1973?

Buried a LOT of good drivers. 1/3 were dying at that point.

[metz]

Had little or nothing to do with the safety car.

[Bunchies]

Why use safety car at all then? Why not remotely turn on the pit limit speed for all cars, and instead of bringing out a safety car just let them go around the track at this slow speed and in the same time gaps will be maintaned? That would IMO make much more sense than what you are proposing.

This.

[Peter3hg]

Why use safety car at all then? Why not remotely turn on the pit limit speed for all cars, and instead of bringing out a safety car just let them go around the track at this slow speed and in the same time gaps will be maintaned? That would IMO make much more sense than what you are proposing.

Once the cars have bunched up, the current system will give the workers a couple of minutes of completely free track time to work. If the system was as you propose they would be unlikely to ever have a substantial period with no cars passing.

[Bleu]

I prefer safety cars to speed limiters.

[Alexis*27]

It is advertising for Mercedes remember!

[LimeyTX]

Today's race in Valencia is a perfect example of the problems with the safety car. Now in this particular instance, my boy Hamilton, benefited and the whiner Alonso lost out. But that doesn't make me happy.

As I read the rules, and I am happy to be corrected on this, had Hamilton just kept going and passed the safety car before the white line, in other words, while the safety car was still in the pit lane, he would NOT have committed an infraction and thus wouldn't have been subject to the penalty. This would have allowed him to race with Vettel all the way to the end. But it would still have put Alonso et al down the field. So the result would have been:
The top two cars would have been ahead of the safety car.
The next group of cars that were past pit in, but behind the safety car, would have been put down the order, and the cars further down, who had not yet past pit in, would have gained an advantage.

This is just ridiculous. The point of the safety car is purely for safety. It's not intended to be a lottery to alter the race results. If it were, then Charlie Whiting ought to pick out a lottery ball and secretly declare a "competition caution" NASCAR style on the lap whose number was on the ball.

The point of the safety car should be to allow workers to work on the track in safety while at the same time MINIMIZING the effect of the safety car on the race. The rule used to be that the pits weren't open immediately. This rule was changed because it penalized people who had planned to come in for fuel on that lap and so potentially ran out of fuel. Now there is no refueling maybe that rule should be reinstated. But that still leaves the problem of large gaps being erased which is unfair. If A has built a 25 second lead over B so that they can stop and change tires without falling behind B it's not fair to remove that 25 second lead.

I respectfully suggest that those people who think the safety car is there to "increase excitement" go and watch NASCAR or Indy racing.

[TecnoRacing]

This rule was changed because it penalized people who had planned to come in for fuel on that lap and so potentially ran out of fuel. Now there is no refueling maybe that rule should be reinstated. But that still leaves the problem of large gaps being erased which is unfair.

Yep agree

...it is a bit unfair, but it's the same scenario for everyone...unlike the random luck that determined things on occasions like today...

They should really just:
Close the pits...
Safety car picks up the leader...
Then open the pits, thereby no one gets randomly screwed given they happened to be in the wrong position on track when the safety car is deployed...

Edited by fer312t, 28 June 2010 - 04:32.