9 replies to this topic

[Graham Gauld]

I need some help regarding detailed information on old Indianapolis 500 entry and qualification sheets.

Fundamentally I am trying to sort out various Maseratis that ran at Indianapolis in the early 1950s as there appears to be confusion.

For this I need definitive information and not just speculation. The questions I need answered are :

At the 1950 Indy 500 six Maseratis were entered but only two qualified, Spider Webb in 8CTF chassis 3031 and Henry Banks 8CL 3035. Both of these cars had now been fitted with Offenhauser engines. The others either did not qualify or did not arrive. However I am trying to confirm whether Maserati V8 RI chassis 4502 driven by Denny Weinberg was also entered and whether it was a DNQ or a DNA

At the 1951 Indy 500 Johnny McDowell ran 8CTF 3031 Maserati-Offy. However I need clarification that the Maserati-Offy that Joe Barada DNQ'd was the 8CL. Also Bud Bennett failed to qualify a Maserati for that same event but I have no record of the Model of Maserati he was driving and possibly the chassis number. I do not think it was V8 RI 4502 of the previous year because I believe at that time it was being converted into a sports car.

At the 1952 Indy 500 we have another problem in that three drivers did not qualify driving Maserati-Offys, Carl Forberg, Jackie Holmes and Joe Barzda. As far as I am aware there were only two Offy engined Maseratis running at that time, the 8CTF and 8CL mentioned above and the Barzda car appears to be 8CTF 3031. So did Holmes and Forberg try to qualify the same car, the 8CL and if not what was the fhird Maserati.

Finally at the 1953 Indy 500 we have Joe Barzda not qualifying - presumably in 8CTF 3031- and Spider Webb not qualifying in what appears to be the same car. Then again Roy Neuman is supposed to have been running a Maserati and did not qualify. WHich car was this.

Obviously I need a source with definitive entry sheets that might include the Make, model and chassis number of each car.

All help gratefully received

[Vitesse2]

Have you seen this thread, Graham:

http://forums.autosp...showtopic=43559

[Michael Ferner]

Obviously I need a source with definitive entry sheets that might include the Make, model and chassis number of each car.

Sadly, there's no such thing (in my experience)!

All I can offer is my extensive research on the subject based on photographs, reports and a bit of data from technical spec sheets - the line between "definitive information" and "just speculation" will have to remain blurred, I'm afraid, unless some unexpected documents may surface!

To start with, there were seven (not six) Maseratis entered at Indy in 1950: two works entries of the Tipo 8CLT/50 did not arrive, but the other five all arrived and practiced:

- #10 (8CTF chassis '3032') did not qualify and was only used by Bill Vukovich for his rookie test, although possibly also driven by others for testing purposes
- #12 (8CL '3035') was qualified and raced with a supercharged 180 ci Offenhauser engine
- #21 (8CTF '3031') was qualifed and raced with a normally aspirated 270 ci Offenhauser engine
- #39 (8CTF '3030') aborted a qualifying run and did not start
- #85 (a modified V8RI '4502') was qualified with a normally aspirated 270 ci Offenhauser engine by Manny Ayulo at 5'00.00", too slow to start. It was also driven by Jim Rigsby in practice, and to the best of my knowledge Denny Weinberg was only its co-owner, never a driver.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 25 June 2010 - 11:35.

[Michael Ferner]

At the 1951 Indy 500 Johnny McDowell ran 8CTF 3031 Maserati-Offy. However I need clarification that the Maserati-Offy that Joe Barada DNQ'd was the 8CL. Also Bud Bennett failed to qualify a Maserati for that same event but I have no record of the Model of Maserati he was driving and possibly the chassis number. I do not think it was V8 RI 4502 of the previous year because I believe at that time it was being converted into a sports car.

It is difficult to rationalize, but the Offenhauser engines did not stay with the same chassis through the years!!! Johnny McDowells Maser/Offy was 8CTF '3032', the two-time winner now fitted with the supercharged 180 ci Offenhauser from 8CL '3035' the year before! The latter car was also entered (with a Maserati 8CTF engine), but did not arrive. Apparently, 8CTFs '3030' and '3031' had also exchanged engines (!) since having been bought by Joe Barzda from Dick Cott, and Barzda himself drove '3030' with a normally aspirated 270 ci Offenhauser engine, while Bud Sennett drove '3031' with an 8CTF engine - whether it was its original engine or the one from '3030' I don't know. Both made qualifying runs but had to abort after minor accidents. No V8RIs were entered at Indy after 1950.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 25 June 2010 - 10:45.

[Michael Ferner]

At the 1952 Indy 500 we have another problem in that three drivers did not qualify driving Maserati-Offys, Carl Forberg, Jackie Holmes and Joe Barzda. As far as I am aware there were only two Offy engined Maseratis running at that time, the 8CTF and 8CL mentioned above and the Barzda car appears to be 8CTF 3031. So did Holmes and Forberg try to qualify the same car, the 8CL and if not what was the fhird Maserati.

Finally at the 1953 Indy 500 we have Joe Barzda not qualifying - presumably in 8CTF 3031- and Spider Webb not qualifying in what appears to be the same car. Then again Roy Neuman is supposed to have been running a Maserati and did not qualify. WHich car was this.

Forberg's Maser/Offy was apparently a 4CLT-48 (chassis '1610') fitted with a short-stroke 263 ci Offenhauser engine, and he apparently never made a qualifying attempt although he must've used the car in practice runs. Holmes apparently drove the same combination as McDowell in 1951, i.e. 8CTF '3032' with a supercharged 180 ci Offenhauser engine - by the way, there is ample reason to believe that the serial number of that Offy engine, as used 1950 through 1952, was 'B105'. Holmes also did not make a qualifying attempt, despite using the car in practice, and neither did Joe Barzda, who still had both his 8CTFs, but entered only one at Indy: apparently, '3031' with a Maserati engine, not an Offy - there's evidence that he used '3030' with a normally aspirated Offenhauser engine in one or two other events that year. He was back at Indy in 1953 with '3031', and pictures show the car to have its original exhaust fitted, so it probably used its original engine again. He qualified at 4'55.28", too slow to make the field. Spider Webb was obviously driving the 4CLT-48/Offenhauser short-stroke hybrid again, while Roy Neuman (or, possibly Newman) drove 8CL '3035', still fitted with an 8CTF engine - neither made any attempt at qualifying.

[Michael Ferner]

An afterthought or two: in early 1953, Joe Barzda installed a Roots-type supercharger on the Ford V8-60 engine of his "Sprint Car" (actually, a "stretched" Kurtis-Kraft Midget), and campaigned this car quite successfully over the next three seasons. Photographs show the supercharger to be of identical design to the one of the 8CTF Maserati, and it's not too difficult to guess where it came from. The question is, however, if Barzda ever owned two Maserati engines, as only one was apparently installed in the two chassis when he bought them. Since he used '3031' with a supercharged Maserati engine in Indy qualifying on May 23, and the supercharged Ford in Sprint Car races at Hatfield (Pennsylvania) only days before and after this date, we may presume that he owned at least two Maserati supercharger assemblies, if not complete engines. He could, however, also have transfered the unit from one car to another and back, although this seems to be an awkward amount of work to be done. But we shouldn't forget the attitude of racers back in the fifties!

Edited by Michael Ferner, 25 June 2010 - 11:28.

[bradbury west]

Bearing in mind the details, and presumably accurate sources, which he has submitted on other similar period US racing history, could TNFer John Glenn Prinz add any information?
Roger Lund

[David McKinney]

I suspect Michael's researches would have included that source

[Richard Jenkins]

Then again Roy Neuman is supposed to have been running a Maserati and did not qualify. WHich car was this.

Can't help car wise but for your or anybody else's records, his surname was definitely NEWMAN. He was a noted sprint car driver from Hammond, Indiana.

[Michael Ferner]

Bearing in mind the details, and presumably accurate sources, which he has submitted on other similar period US racing history, could TNFer John Glenn Prinz add any information?
Roger Lund

I've had no feedback from John on this matter yet, but I will try to steer him to this thread.

I have looked at various pictures again, and I may have made a slight mistake: it seems that in 1951, Barzda was driving '3031' and Sennett '3030', and that the engine exchange took place a year or two later. There is little doubt in my mind, however, that by 1953 '3031' had its original engine back when Barzda had it at Indy. The problem is that of finding pictures of good enough quality for those years, as the cars were becoming obsolete and less attractive for photographers. In the few pictures I have, it is extremely difficult to make out the discerning features for each chassis, which are otherwise quite obvious.

Richard, thanks for your contribution, although I must say I'm quite surprised: I would have thought it more likely for the name "Neuman" to be misspelled as "Newman", than vice versa! But, Hammond (IN) is correct.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 25 June 2010 - 14:06.