64 replies to this topic

[Apex]

A simple question: Now that re-fueling is gone, wouldn't it be best to just close the pit lane during safety car periods?

It seems to me that a great deal of controversy could be avoided that way and there would probably be fewer unfair race results.

Discuss.

Edit: I think I should clarify that I didn't mean that the pit lane should be completely closed, only that regular tire changes should not be allowed.

Edited by Apex, 27 June 2010 - 18:27.

[RockyRaccoon68]

Yea I like this idea, there's no real need for it to be open this year without refuelling.

[Dragonfly]

Yes.
Now that there's no refueling only damaged cars and with punctured tyres should be let in unpunished.
I think it's much fairer to everyone and to the sport. And rules will become much simpler as a bonus - no electronically controlled individual timing, etc.

Edited by Dragonfly, 27 June 2010 - 17:58.

[Lights]

I think the controversy isn't just created by the pitstops. It's the safety car itself that messes up races.

[Enkei]

No.. it busts strategies as much as an open pit lane, nothing would change. Maintaining positions would be a better solution.

[scheivlak]

A simple question: Now that re-fueling is gone, wouldn't it be best to just close the pit lane during safety car periods?

It seems to me that a great deal of controversy could be avoided that way and there would probably be fewer unfair race results.

Discuss.

We'll end up having other controversies, like in Canada 2007 and Singapore 2008.

So no.

[Darth Sidious]

The problem might easily be solved with including one sentence into the rules.

"No pitting while under safety car conditions except to have damage repaired."

That way nobody is disadvantaged by safety cars and track order remains unchanged.

[engel]

NO it should stay open, say there's a guy out with a puncture, if he runs 5 laps with a deflated tyre he'll either break his car or just add debris to the track.

[Apex]

NO it should stay open, say there's a guy out with a puncture, if he runs 5 laps with a deflated tyre he'll either break his car or just add debris to the track.

But regular tire changes could still be banned.

[Sausage]

I think it's ok. Sometimes you get caught out, but in the general the rule isn't bad. I don't have a clue why Schumi had to wait for red lights though. Today they messed up, but I don't think they should change this particular rule for it.

[Wouter]

NO it should stay open, say there's a guy out with a puncture, if he runs 5 laps with a deflated tyre he'll either break his car or just add debris to the track.

Exactly. Keep it open, no need for repeats of Singapore 2008 - which produced a similar effect with Rosberg then as with Hamilton today, only then it was because Rosberg ignored the closed pits rules.

[Dragonfly]

It's not about Schumacher, it's about the whole mess today. Take the anti glasses off.

[Jay101]

I vote no - to many races will be destroyed for drivers who didn't do there pitstop before the SC came out and bunched up the field making there track position pointless and be relegated to near last place when they have to pit 5 or so laps later.

How about if all drivers can pass SC until the leader comes back around behind the SC, then they start to stack behind, that would of prevented what happened to FA today, but the pit lane must stay open.

[rdebourbon]

I think it should remain open, but you cannot make your mandatory tyre change under the SC during your *FIRST* SC pit stop.. if you have to pit under SC, then you have to use the same tyres you were on before the SC came out..

Even this could result in blown strategies and unlucky situations for someone right at the end of their stint of x rubber, and about to switch onto y.. then being forced to take x initially and a second later stop for y with a more bunched up pack..

Either that, or close the pitlane until the pack has formed properly behind the SC - anyone pitting before this will have to rejoin at the back... (which they would land up with anyway once the pack is bunched)...

The fact remains, because the pack bunches under the SC, someone will always stand to benefit / loose out depending on lucky/unlucky pitstop timing...

[barteks]

Since the refuelling is gone, pit-lane can be closed during SC period.

[Jay101]

So your favorite driver is running an exemplary race with a 40 second lead and he's on old rubber while everyone else has pitted.

SC comes out but the pitlanes closed and the field bunches up.

Within a few laps after restart your man who has run an exemplary race has to pit and comes out around about last.

That's just not fair to me and could lose someone a well deserved championship title.

[korzeniow]

No. It spice up the race and the competition. It mix up strategies.

[Dragonfly]

So your favorite driver is running an exemplary race with a 40 second lead and he's on old rubber while everyone else has pitted.

SC comes out but the pitlanes closed and the field bunches up.

Within a few laps after restart your man who has run an exemplary race has to pit and comes out around about last.

That's just not fair to me and could lose someone a well deserved championship title.

Then the most fair thing to do is everyone to catch the line and retake his exact position before the SC was deployed. The only loss will be the time distance.

No. It spice up the race and the competition. It mix up strategies.

I don't like such spices.

Edited by Dragonfly, 27 June 2010 - 19:03.

[New Britain]

I'd put it the other way - Is there something inherently wrong with keeping the pits open?
No, the only real purpose of the SC now is to ensure that the cars do not go at an unsafe speed past the danger zone(s). The SC is there to govern the speed of the field. Yet F1 cars have sophisticated systems for monitoring their speed (the delta, etc.). In the time that it takes to deploy the safety car, and get it to the site of the incident, Race Control could easily define the danger zone and send a local delta direct to the cars/drivers.

[Dragonfly]

This is too rational to be accepted. And besides, it eliminates the possibility to manipulate the outcome

Just wait for the moving wing rules implemetation next year. That will be a fest.

Edited by Dragonfly, 27 June 2010 - 19:13.

[barteks]

No. It spice up the race and the competition. It mix up strategies.

Well, if you like a lottery rather than pure racing...

[Clatter]

If someone has damage to their car then they need pit. I don't want another mountain of rules to cater for those circumstances. As much as Alonso wants to complain about losing out today, there have been plenty of other races where he has benefited. It's swings and roundabouts and tends to even out in the long run, so no need for a knee jerk reaction.

[patgaw]

There are upsides and downsides.
Let say frontrunners didn't make their pit stops yet, while at positions around 7-10 there are some guys after their pit stop.
SC is deployed then returns to pit. Now frontrunners have to pit and they lose around to 30 secs midfield drivers.
SC is always unfair to someone and always gives advantage to someone.
I voted yes, but I have doubts.

[Apex]

If someone has damage to their car then they need pit. I don't want another mountain of rules to cater for those circumstances.

You don't need a mountain of rules for that. Just allow them to do anything except changing tires. You could even allow them to change one tire if they have a puncture.

[Clatter]

You don't need a mountain of rules for that. Just allow them to do anything except changing tires. You could even allow them to change one tire if they have a puncture.

You see, you are already having to come up with rules to cover different scenarios. This is where it all goes wrong.

[pingu666]

its worth remmbering the saftey car bunches the field to give the marshells and others the chance to work on the track/walls etc for a couple of mins without worry of being run over etc

[Dragonfly]

its worth remmbering the saftey car bunches the field to give the marshells and others the chance to work on the track/walls etc for a couple of mins without worry of being run over etc

Today it took 2 laps to catch the leader and meanwhile cars were running everywhere.

[FonzCam]

I'd put it the other way - Is there something inherently wrong with keeping the pits open?
No, the only real purpose of the SC now is to ensure that the cars do not go at an unsafe speed past the danger zone(s). The SC is there to govern the speed of the field. Yet F1 cars have sophisticated systems for monitoring their speed (the delta, etc.). In the time that it takes to deploy the safety car, and get it to the site of the incident, Race Control could easily define the danger zone and send a local delta direct to the cars/drivers.

SC also bunches the field which lets work take place on the track without cars constantly passing by. SC can also guide cars around an accident and slow them substantially for a small section. Lap deltas on the wheel with that level of complexity and detail would distract the driver whereas with the SC they just have to match the car ahead.

As to the pit lane I see no reason it shouldn't be closed to all but damaged cars. The only reason they reversed the rule that had it closed was because people were getting caught out and having to pit during long SC periods or they would run out of fuel, something that can't happen with the refuelling ban. People darting into the pits and forcing teams to stack their drivers and people getting bum deals because of the pit lane release rules all because of the enforced tyre compound rule just adds to many unpredictable variables that give the viewer and the unlucky drivers the feeling that it's a farce or unfair.

With closed pits the race order would be the same before and after the SC deployed just the gaps would have changed. This would reduce the impact of the SC on the race.

The only scenario I can see that might need to be looked at is if someone like Kobayashi was planning to pit for the other compound in the last few laps and before they pit the SC is deployed and then the race ends under the SC then you're in a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation but this is far less likely then when drivers ran out of fuel under the previous pit closure rules.

[Apex]

You see, you are already having to come up with rules to cover different scenarios. This is where it all goes wrong.

That's one rule. You can do anything except changing more than one tire.

That's a hell of a lot more simple than what we have now.

[Nathan]

Yes!!!

[ImmortaL]

I'd vote for a Yes. Close the pitlane until all cars are lined up behind the SC and then open the pitlane for teams to do tyre changes if they want. Obviously if a car is damaged or punctured, they can pit without any penalty even if the pitlane is close and they'll be at the back of the pack. Atleast in this way, it prevents the SC from coming out randomly in the middle and screwing the race of the cars it picks up and letting the other others who escaped b4 it came out. IMO the SC should either pick up the lead car or not come out at all and in the meantime since the SC deployed message is all over and the whole track is on double yellow and every driver is given a delta time, they can all cruise around and line up behind the lead car with no overtaking obviously and the SC can then pick up the lead car in the next lap. Atleast this way, it allows for less of a lottery race and people getting caught out because the SC comes out randomly. This is the best idea possible in the current circumstances IMO. I'm thinking a SC cannot eliminate the lottery, but atleast this way, you can reduce it. Just my 2 cents...

[rccrazy]

One thing is to close the pits when de safety car is deployed, neccesary, but the important thing is that the safety car should be in front of the first place car. All the cars should limit its speed and the safety car move in front. Why they let Vettel to enter the pits with such advantage?. I posted the same idea in another thread but it was full of Alonso and Hamilton enemies and they did not respond to it.

[saudoso]

NO!

It was today that the SC happened to be deployed in a 20"window that split the leading cars in half.

SC's have been deployed more than once this year to the benefit of the same people complaining today and no one minded.

[Stormsky68]

No leave it open.

Why do we need a knee jerk reaction rule change from a one-off racing incident?

[ImmortaL]

Ok, if the pitlane is going to be left open, atleast let the SC pick up the lead car and not someone in the middle of the pack at random. This means the the cars behind SC will be running even more slower than the ones who escaped ahead of the SC and can take full advantage of that. This is artificial racing. I don't know how people can miss that point. Either the SC should come out and pick up the lead car or not come out until the next lap to pick up the lead car. Until then, they are all given delta times and already no overtaking is allowed(they can even use the ECU to control the pace of the car just like a pitlane limiter). So why can't this be implemented? SC just cannot come out randomly and catch drivers in the middle of the pack out cause this is just adding too much lottery and giving unfair advantage to some drivers...

[Panktej]

A simple question: Now that re-fueling is gone, wouldn't it be best to just close the pit lane during safety car periods?

It seems to me that a great deal of controversy could be avoided that way and there would probably be fewer unfair race results.

Discuss.

Edit: I think I should clarify that I didn't mean that the pit lane should be completely closed, only that regular tire changes should not be allowed.

IMO, A simple answer to your question would be, NO....

Reason: Indeed, SC spice up the race, and allows midfield teams to score some valuable points. Having said that, FIA should revised their rules on Overtaking, Penalties, and of-course on SC. If the rules are clear to the team, then such mistakes wouldn't take place. Moreover, they should also consider the time taken to impose a penalty. F1 being a pinnacle of motorsports, and largely depends on technology. FIA stewards has all the data in front of them, then why do they take so much of time in deciding a penalty.

These are few things, which Jean Todt should consider for upcoming races, and season to improve the sport.

[Clatter]

That's one rule. You can do anything except changing more than one tire.

That's a hell of a lot more simple than what we have now.

What if you have 2 damaged tyres?

[Dragonfly]

Actually, is it allowed by the current rules to use tyres from different sets? I think no.

[arttidesco]

Surely a safety car caution should immediately freeze the field and determine the restart order of the drivers no matter what happens during the safety car caution with respect to pit stops.

That way everybody knows exactly where they stand.

Frankly the tyre pit stops are a complete waste of time anyway, makes the manufacturer look as though they cannot build a tyre good enough to last 90 mins or 200 miles, now that we have a new manufacturer returning to the sport they should be asked to make a tyre that lasts a for a whole meeting. :-)

[KateLM]

Now we don't have refuelling, I think its worth looking into closing the pitlane for anything barring broken wings or punctures. I'm not sure about banning tire changing in these scenarios though because it seems unfair that they would have to make 2 stops instead of the usual 1 they would do under normal conditions.

Though you would have to consider the fact that someone could be out on extremely old and marginal tires just as the safety car is deployed.

Edited by KateLM, 27 June 2010 - 22:35.

[Clatter]

Surely a safety car caution should immediately freeze the field and determine the restart order of the drivers no matter what happens during the safety car caution with respect to pit stops.

That way everybody knows exactly where they stand.

Frankly the tyre pit stops are a complete waste of time anyway, makes the manufacturer look as though they cannot build a tyre good enough to last 90 mins or 200 miles, now that we have a new manufacturer returning to the sport they should be asked to make a tyre that lasts a for a whole meeting. :-)

That's just as unfair to a driver(s) who may have made a pitstop just before the SC and is expecting to regain places when the other pits.

You are 100% wrong on the tyres. The tyres already are too durable and we want them to be marginal. The Canadian race showed how good that can be.

[Birelman]

Just freaking ban the safety car!!!! local yellows like before!!!!!! let them run over the corner workers if they have to!!!!!

[ryan86]

I think they do need to look at things though. The rules seems to be becoming an ever increasing tangled web as a flaw is found and another layer added to the rule book.

My ideal situation would be three sets of compounds, you choose one and you have to use it during the race. Takes away any obligatory pit stops or anything. Part of the problemi is that we have a situation and problem, they seemed to be adding extra bits and bits to the ruling.

Going off slightly. Look, at say the one off situation of Hamilton, probably accidentally running out of fuel in Canada and now we've got more rubbish about trying to reach delta times in qualifying in-laps. Because, you know what's going to happen. One day somebodies going to innocently miss their delta time and another fuss is going to sprung up about it.

They need to look at the rule book IMO and really make it simple and remove the ambiguity. If you are found guilty, your penalty will be X. Not X or Y or Z.

Problem with some of the solutions to this problems is some people ideas seem to be leading to another layer of stuff being added on.

[arttidesco]

That's just as unfair to a driver(s) who may have made a pitstop just before the SC and is expecting to regain places when the other pits.

You are 100% wrong on the tyres. The tyres already are too durable and we want them to be marginal. The Canadian race showed how good that can be.

Any mandatory bunching up of the field is unfair for safety cars anyway so why not reduce the unfair permutations by eliminating unnecessary buggering about in the pits changing tyres ?

The strategy to win races should be to always go as fast as you can instead of looking at stats for previous races about safety car incidents and gambling on the possible outcome of safety car incidents during the race at hand :-)

[alfa1]

Surely a safety car caution should immediately freeze the field and determine the restart order of the drivers no matter what happens during the safety car caution with respect to pit stops.

The Webber incident was unusual in that the SC was called even before the accident stopped happening. Usually there is somewhat of a delay before it is called, as Charlie checks to see exactly how much debris is on the track, where all the cars are, if cranes are nearby etc...

So your proposed typical scenario would normally be
1. Incident occurs.
2. Teams who are nearly due a pitstop anyway call cars in.
3. Some cars enter pitlane to get new tyres.
4. Safety car is called, pitlane gets closed.
5. Somewhat later, the cars who pitted (who now have new tyres) are reworked back up the field to where they were originally. A free pitstop.

No matter what rules you put in place, there will ALWAYS be winners and losers. Some people just dont get this basic fact.

[highdownforce]

If "spice" is what is wanted, why not to have a red flag with a standing restart then?

[Villes Gilleneuve]

No. It spice up the race and the competition. It mix up strategies.

This isn't NASCAR, F1 fans don't want fake racing.

Not only should the pits be closed, but I'm all for no tire stops at all.

Besides, the "spice" in F1 is random judging decisions with random penalties -like watching the World Cup.

Edited by Villes Gilleneuve, 28 June 2010 - 18:18.

[Villes Gilleneuve]

If "spice" is what is wanted, why not to have a red flag with a standing restart then?

They used to do this before safety cars. It was dropped because 1. It took too long to restart the race, which impacted TV times and 2. Clutches/trans have a hard time with two F1 starts in a row.

[goldenboy]

I guarantee you if they were only allowed to pit to repair damage during safety car there would be teams cheating. so even more controversies.

I had to pit cos uhhhhh.... there were some scratches on my shiny car.

[goldenboy]

No matter what rules you put in place, there will ALWAYS be winners and losers. Some people just dont get this basic fact.
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