34 replies to this topic

[Joe Fan]

Here is a good topic to research if anyone has time. When did seatbelts first appear in sports cars, Grand Prix cars and NASCAR stock cars?

According to my sources, seatbelts didn't become mandatory in F1 cars until the mid to late 1960's sometime.

[Ray Bell]

Belts were mandatory in the USA quite early, maybe 1960, maybe earlier, but only lap belts were fitted in most instances, and many were never used.
The turning point that led to the common acceptance and then (fairly quickly) mandated use worldwide (or under the FIA) was the crash of Niel Allen and his McLaren at Lakeside in July, 1968. The car was totally demolished in a terrifying flight and landing, but Niel was virtually unscathed.
His car had been fitted with a 6-point harness a few months earlier by Dr Michael Henderson, a pommie migrant who voiced his opinion on these things and had more than just a few take note.
I gather than news of Niel's escape was noted in F1 circles and it wasn't long before things started to happen. It's possible Stewart had harnesses before this, but don't quote me.

[Joe Fan]

I think Jackie first started using seatbelts in F1 during the 1967 season.

[Don Capps]

In the wake of the events of 1955, NASCAR had a requirement for seatbelts (and the technical specifications as to their installation) for the 1956 season. Seatbelts were certainly used prior to that, but I am unaware of there being a rule requiring them, athough I could be mistaken.

I think it was the same for the new USAC -- who replaced the AAA Contest Board -- regulations for the National Championship that same season. Again, seatbelts were in use prior to that season. Off the top of my head, I can't pinpoint when the harness was made mandatory by USAC.

After his incident at Spa in 1966, Stewart mulled things over and from 1967 had seatbelts and then shoulder harness installed in his cars. The belts and harness were from Indy car and then UK aviation suppliers.

If I recall correctly, in the relatively brief period of 1967 to 1970 there were many new regs introduced for the personal safety of drivers in FIA championship events, most of which were already in use in the USA. This was perhaps the best aspect of the interchange twix Europe & the USA in the mid & late 1960's.

[Ray Bell]

There are people who always used belts, of course, of their own volition... or because their cars were so rough-riding that they had to.
Frank Kleinig did in the old Hudson Special, and one time when the belt wasn't done up properly it caused him real grief.
This was at Albert Park in 1953 in the Australian GP, and it led to him having trouble changing gears, ultimately to the destruction of the gearbox... and all the while the buckle was falling down onto the road alongside him, flicking up onto the wheel and then smashing into the back of his arm!
Still, it was the only time the car finished the GP... on its next outing, newly reconstructed in a thoroughly different form, it didn't even make the grid.
Stirling Moss refused the wear the lap belts, or any belts, in his day. He sat on the belts installed in the Lotus 19 etc when he raced in America. First time he wore belts in a race car was 1976 at Bathurst in the Torana.

[david_martin]

I recall reading an interview with Micky Spillane (the author of Mike Hammer fame) where he was talking about how he raced stock cars in the late 1940's. Having been a P-51 pilot during WWII, he recalled how precarious it felt driving without a seat belt, so he acquired a war surplus P-51 harness and installed into his car. He said he was the first he knew of to run with a full harness, and that was 1946, if memory serves correctly.

[fines]

I think the first F1 car with seat belts was the Scarab, and again, when Moss drove it, he sat on them!

[Mike Argetsinger]

Seat belts were required at the first (and subsequent) post war road race in America - Watkins Glen 1948. They were specifically required in the Rules and Regulations for that race and no car was approved for competition that didn't have them fitted. According to Philippe Defechereux in his book "Watkins Glen 1948-1952" this was a "world first." Those regulations were written not by the SCCA but by my father (Cameron Argetsinger) with considerable assistance from Bill Milliken. To quote from Defechereux:

"The SCCA having not expected to stage a road race so quickly, had no formal written rules for racing available. Cameron and Jean Argetsinger enlisted the help of Bill Milliken on this urgent subject. They drove to Buffalo several times to develop those rules and make sure they would be included in the entry blank for all would-be participants."

[marion5drsn]

Seat Belts; A Short history. The oldest seat belts were used in aircraft, obviously to keep the pilot from falling out when inverted. The oldest shoulder harness that I recall seeing is in an old picture of the Red Baron and his mechanics fastening his shoulder harness around 1917-18. I believe it took the U.S. Navy till around the time of WW-2 to apply the shoulder harness. And this was with the deceleration of the tail hook. It makes one wonder how many pilots smashed their faces on the instrument panel?
Does anyone know when the British Navy used the shoulder harness? Aircraft designers are almost always ahead of car designers when it comes to safety equipment. Parachutes are a similar story. I believe the Germans had them first in combat. Altho some adventurers used them to bail out of balloons. M. L. Anderson

[Ray Bell]

That certainly is informative, Mike. Did the SCCA adopt those rules from that point on, making belts mandatory everywhere, or did that come in later?
Marion, another interesting snippet.

[Rainer Nyberg]

I understand that it was not common to use seatbelts in single seaters until the late 1960s.

Can someone shed some light on who pioneered the use of seatbelts in Formula One?

And can anyone recall when it was made mandatory by regulations?

The influx of baby-faces to today's Formula One, makes me believe that F1 today is for kids...!

Back in the old days the men raced in flimsy tin-cans and they had bags of high octane fuel cushioned around them...and they didn´t use seatbelts...!

My my...

I understand that they were reluctant to use seatbelts because the risk of beeing trapped in a burning car...?

[LittleChris]

Rainer,

I think Dan Gurney may have been one of the first drivers to use seatbelts in the early 60's.

Chris

[Dave Ware]

On another thread Dan's son posted that he was remarking on the lack of seatbelts in the 1967 Eagle F1. Dan's reply was that with all that gasoline and magnesium he'd rather be thrown out of the car than belted into it.

Remember also, their cornering speeds were a lot slower in those days.

(Sorry, Justin, if you had wanted to share this...haven't seen you in a while so assumed you were off somewhere.)

Dave

[Gil Bouffard]

I read somewhere that Jackie Stewart was the first to wear seatbelts in F-1.

American Sports Car Racing required them much earlier, but some of the old school guys would slide them down behind the seat.

Rainer. They weren't, "bags of high octane fuel." In the early days it was an exotic concoction of stuff. They started using 100 octane AvGas in 1957-58.

Weren't bags either, but rather, metal containers that could rupture in a heart beat!

And the drivers liked the "safety," of being able to jump out of the car or being thrown from the car, rather than being strapped to the car.

I remember this discussion from way back then..

Dave Ware: "Remember also, their cornering speeds were a lot slower in those days."

Their cornering speeds were enough for Fangio to break his seat in 1957 at the Nurburgring while chasing Hawthorn and Collins.

Gilster

[Martyj]

Wasn't Stewart the first one? I do know that he was very vocal and forceful, along with Louis Stanely, about improving all safety facets of GP racing in the late sixies. I believe it was an indirect result of many drivers from GP and sports car racing participating at Indy, and being exposed to the benifits of seat belts in indy cars.

[Rainer Nyberg]

Gil,

Maybe I wasn´t as far back as you think was...

The flimsy monocoques didn´t surface until the early 60s...

When did the safety bags appear into the sheet-metal fuel tanks?

And AvGas 100 I think was pretty volatile stuff too...?
How about even more powerful rocketful like 100/130 or even 115/145 AvGas?
How limited were the regulations concerning fuels in the 50s?

[fines]

The Scarab was, iirc, the first F1 car with seatbelts. When Moss was driving it, he reportedly sat on them, for back then it was widely believed that the best chance surviving an accident would be to be thrown out.

I think the FIA made them compulsory from 1969 onwards.

[FLB]

Originally posted by Rainer Nyberg

When did the safety bags appear into the sheet-metal fuel tanks?

In the colour pictures section of Nye's History of The GP Car vol.1, there's a picture of a Bowmaker Lola taken in the paddock without much of its bodywork.

The fuel tank is a bag over the driver's legs.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Rainer Nyberg


When did the safety bags appear into the sheet-metal fuel tanks?

Bag tanks became compulsory in 1970. It made the previous year's champion car, the Matra MS80, obsolete, and precipitated the first monocoque formula 1 Brabham.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Dave Ware
On another thread Dan's son posted that he was remarking on the lack of seatbelts in the 1967 Eagle F1. Dan's reply was that with all that gasoline and magnesium he'd rather be thrown out of the car than belted into it.

Graham Hill always attributed surviving his 1969 US GP crash to not being able to do up his belts after a spin. The car flew through the air, ending up upside-down, while Hill was thrown clear and landed twenty yards further on with both legs broken.

[Don Capps]

USAC mandated seatbelts in the 1957 or so period. The sports cars in the USAC road racing championship series had to have them installed, but the use of the belts wasn't required.

In 1970, a whole of regulations went into effect and that caused more than a few cars on the grid to become museum exhibits or pensioned off for use in exotic lands....

For the most part, the CSI wasn't too much into safety as "safety" leaving such things to the teams and individuals for many years. In 1952, its requirement for the use of "helmets" was not widely applauded....

It is very difficult for many from thoday's world to fathom the difference in attitudes of those racing back then from those of today. It is often hard to explain, but it was just how it was.

[Mike Argetsinger]

Originally posted by Vitesse2


Graham Hill always attributed surviving his 1969 US GP crash to not being able to do up his belts after a spin. The car flew through the air, ending up upside-down, while Hill was thrown clear and landed twenty yards further on with both legs broken.

No. He did not "always" attribute surviving his 1969 crash etc. to not being able to do up his belts. He may have said it somewhere at some time - but what he in fact said in his book "Graham - Graham Hill with Neil Ewart" is the following:

"I shall never know whether it was a good or bad thing that my straps weren't fastened."

[Mike Argetsinger]

Seat belts were required at the first (and subsequent) post war road race in America - Watkins Glen 1948. They were specifically required in the Rules and Regulations for that race and no car was approved for competition that didn't have them fitted. According to Philippe Defechereux in his book "Watkins Glen 1948-1952" this was a "world first." Those regulations were written not by the SCCA but by my father (Cameron Argetsinger) with considerable assistance from Bill Milliken. To quote from Defechereux:

"The SCCA having not expected to stage a road race so quickly, had no formal written rules for racing available. Cameron and Jean Argetsinger enlisted the help of Bill Milliken on this urgent subject. They drove to Buffalo several times to develop those rules and make sure they would be included in the entry blank for all would-be participants."


The two paragraphs above I originally posted on the previous thread on this same subject. There is some interesting information on the thread and is worth taking a look at.

http://www.atlasf1.c...light=seatbelts

[Gary Davies]

This thread sent me scuttling out to the Motor Sport collection. 1968 seems to be the year of change (in F-1) and IÕm sure someone will very soon nail the question once and for all. In the meantime, a couple of observations from speed reading most of the 1968 issues.

* Very little mention of belts in the text.
* Pretty hard to be certain of the presence or otherwise of belts from most of the photographs, but one certainty from the Dutch Grand Prix of June 23. A picture of StewartÕs victorious Matra MS-10 with seat belts clearly visible and the caption: ÒStewartÕs Matra-Cosworth ... and the full safety harness this very safety conscious driver wearsÒ
* That was the first reference to belts in Grand Prix cars revealed by my scan through the 1968 Motor Sports.
* Interestingly, adoption of seat belts seemed to be patchy thereafter. I found a pic (elsewhere) of Vic Elford in a belt-equipped Cooper-BRM at the French Grand Prix. It seems the BRMs, Hondas and McLarens remained beltless for the whole of the year.
* In the November issue there is a high shot of the start at Watkins Glen and Andretti and Hill are clearly wearing belts, yet (on the second page of the Pictorial Review) there is a picture of Graham Hill at the Canadian Grand Prix, a mere two weeks earlier, in which there appear to be no belts. Graham throws no light on this in either Life at the Limit or Graham .
* Final thing, a wee bit off topic but it amused. In the August issue I stumbled across a small piece by Bill Boddy in Matters of Moment on seat belts for road cars. Whilst laying no claim to wisdom (quite the reverse), I remember feeling throughout WBÕs years-long rage against compulsory seat belt wearing in Great Britain that he was way off beam. I quote the piece from August 1968 in full. I chuckled and looked skyward today as I did 33 years ago.

ÒCOMPULSORY
To comply with the requirements of the Farewell State, the Editorial Rover was fitted the other day with safety-belts. Never mind whether or not they will ever be used! As they had to be fitted, we used the very best possible, in the form of Britax Auto-Lok reel-type belts (12 gns. a pair). They afford maximum protection for those who are too timid to travel in a motor unless they are securely attached to it. But those who tune for performance may find reel-type belts too heavy and may prefer to fit a less elaborate Britax harness - have you ever weighed a pair of reel-type belts?

We still consider the ruling a ridiculous one and another step towards bidding farewell to freedom of choice and fun of oneÕs own making ...Ò

Vanwall (who always wore belts in his 1965 Mini but drove it like a right wally)

[FLB]

Found in The Amon Thread:

Originally posted by Chris Skepis

This interview was taken from International Motor Racing Book #4 published by Souvenir Press LTD- London ,1970.

The interview was tape recorded at Amon's home in Geneva, in the winter of 1969/70. Unfortunally, the book doesn't say who was the interviewer. It says only that he talked to Motor Racing Book. This article comes with a handfull of very nice shots of him driving the Ferrari F1, Ferrari sport car, and one of his first test with March.


Q. What has been the most dramatic incident you have been involved in?
A. My crash at Monza in '68. While lying second, the oil pipe connected to the hydraulic wing we were using fractured, spraying oil on to the left rear tyre. I spun going into the first Lesmo and hit the guard rail backwards. The guard rail bent and catapaulted the car, somersaulting three times, landing the car down a bank on an accessroad. This had been the first race I used safety belts, which saved me from injury.

[Eric McLoughlin]

Nigel Corner's accident at last year's Goodwood Revival meeting seems to vindicate the theory that NOT wearing seat belts was probably the best option in 1950's F1 cars.

[Big Jim]

What was the first use of seat belts in F1 and when did they become mandatory?

[Vitesse2]

Rather than cross-referencing to the two previous topics I have merged all three after Big Jim's question ...

[Tim Murray]

These other threads are also relevant:

Seat Belts

Safety Belts

Safety, belts and Michael Henderson's part...

[DampMongoose]

I've read somewhere Mario Andretti suggesting the seatbelts in one of the 60's/70's Ferraris he drove were attached to the seat cover, so he could sit in the car and fasten the belts and then climb out and walk around with the seat cover on his back.

[JtP2]

Gil,



The flimsy monocoques didn´t surface until the early 60s...

When did the safety bags appear into the sheet-metal fuel tanks?

So how were the early 60s monocoques, ie Lotus 25, ever considered flimsy? Not that the lotus 25 is a true monocoque. It is really two monocoques joined up as a ladder chassis, it's just that the chassis is the size of the car, in fact is the whole car.

The bag tank in F1 would probably have appeared first in the Lotus 25, what is the point of fitting it to any previous car?

[Charlieman]

The bag tank in F1 would probably have appeared first in the Lotus 25, what is the point of fitting it to any previous car?

Throughout Doug Nye's early BRM books, you'll read references to FPT or Fireproof Tanks as a supplier. FPT made fuel tanks for military aircraft which leaked less or self repaired when punctured to a small degree. This made them a natural fit for racing cars. The bag tank was a logical development of the leak less tank which could be fitted into tight spaces in a spaceframe or tube construction car. Consider a saddle tank over the driver's legs comprising a light metal shell and a fuel bladder.

[JtP2]

Throughout Doug Nye's early BRM books, you'll read references to FPT or Fireproof Tanks as a supplier. FPT made fuel tanks for military aircraft which leaked less or self repaired when punctured to a small degree. This made them a natural fit for racing cars. The bag tank was a logical development of the leak less tank which could be fitted into tight spaces in a spaceframe or tube construction car. Consider a saddle tank over the driver's legs comprising a light metal shell and a fuel bladder.

why would any racing car constructor waste space and weight fitting self sealing tanks, is anyone using gunfire on them?

[Charlieman]

why would any racing car constructor waste space and weight fitting self sealing tanks, is anyone using gunfire on them?

Nuts, bolts and rivets, and the odd intrusion by another car.

[doc knutsen]

So how were the early 60s monocoques, ie Lotus 25, ever considered flimsy? Not that the lotus 25 is a true monocoque. It is really two monocoques joined up as a ladder chassis, it's just that the chassis is the size of the car, in fact is the whole car.

The bag tank in F1 would probably have appeared first in the Lotus 25, what is the point of fitting it to any previous car?

 

Not F1, but bag tanks were fitted to the "Lightweight" C-types for Le Mans 1953.