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Elfin ME5


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#1 SJ Lambert

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 10:09

After seeing those fabulous pictures of the Monocoque Elfin 5 litre, that is, the ME5 in practice for the RAC Trophy at the Farm in the hands of Niel Allen it would be terrific to see more of it in its early racing career before it went to Tassie. It would also be interesting to find out more about why it was conceived and why it ended up being a one off - I presume it was commissioned by Niel as a tool to joust with Frank Matich?



Here's a very early shot of it.


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Edited to refresh photo by Bob Mills.



Perhaps lyntonh would like to put up a few of his shots from the Farm as well!!!

Edited by SJ Lambert, 05 April 2016 - 11:20.


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#2 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 14:07

Niel was indeed intent of taking the race to Matich...

If you had seen him chasing the SR4 at Catalina at a time when the old Traco was well past its best you would have understood perfectly.

#3 lyntonh

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Posted 19 July 2010 - 11:17

You asked for it...but these are my last good shots of the car.
Warwick Farm Practice 6th Dec 1969

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Edited by lyntonh, 04 April 2016 - 10:31.


#4 Ray Bell

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Posted 19 July 2010 - 23:03

Wish we'd had those photos several months ago... or is that years?

We had some discussion about how 'historic' the German rebuild of the car had become...

#5 lyntonh

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 00:19

Wish we'd had those photos several months ago... or is that years?

We had some discussion about how 'historic' the German rebuild of the car had become...


I was just looking at the pictures to see how they came upon the upload, & noticed the mirrors.

You'd have to think he was planning to be in the lead all the time, because using that left hand mirror,
that far away & so small, would be like looking into a drinking straw & making out what's at the other end.

#6 Ray Bell

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 01:06

That would depend on which eye was Niel's good one...

He once told Mike Kable (according to Mike, anyway) that he had one eye that wasn't real good and that the other eye had to get him through, or something like that.

Good to see a pile of Niel E Allen pics, anyway.

#7 lyntonh

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 06:09

Thought I'd finished, but one more gem from Northern Crossing Warwick Farm 30th April 1972

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Edited by lyntonh, 04 April 2016 - 10:33.


#8 Ray Bell

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 06:42

But that's Charlie!

We want more of Niel...

#9 lyntonh

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 06:46

But that's Charlie!

We want more of Niel...



You wanted Elfin ME5...you got Elfin ME5!!

#10 SJ Lambert

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 10:36

You wanted Elfin ME5...you got Elfin ME5!!


In the Dec '69 edition of Aussie Auto Sports Adrian Van Loon described the usually unruffled Niel Allen as seemingly elated with the car during it's inaugural run at Mallala (where it ran sans paint - dare we hope for visuals??) and as eager to get it back to his Sydney base prior to it's first race meeting at Sandown in November (anyone??).

A novel point that was made was that it was described as having an aluminium sheet over balsa wood door arrangement (I'm unaware of the balsa wood getting a run in any earlier Elfins).

The 5 litre Chevy motor was from Al Bartz in California (further breathed on by Molloy). Tony Alcock was said to have taken up residence with Niel's chief mechanic (ie Molloy) to continue fettling the beast. (I presume not long after that Tony set up shop with Mal Ramsay??)

#11 Paul Hamilton

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 23:21

In the Dec '69 edition of Aussie Auto Sports Adrian Van Loon described the usually unruffled Niel Allen as seemingly elated with the car during it's inaugural run at Mallala (where it ran sans paint - dare we hope for visuals??) and as eager to get it back to his Sydney base prior to it's first race meeting at Sandown in November (anyone??).

A novel point that was made was that it was described as having an aluminium sheet over balsa wood door arrangement (I'm unaware of the balsa wood getting a run in any earlier Elfins).


James, Garrie made quite extensive use of balsa when making some of the early wings he used. When I first acquired my 600 in the early 70's it came with a lovely set of rather small front and rear wings in which aluminium sheet had been framed over balsa wood formers. The workmanship was first class and no doubt was a throw back to Garrie's model aircraft days. By the time they came to me the aero section was no longer up to scratch and they were quickly discarded after I had damaged the rear wing sufficiently to be able to see just how they were constructed. The damaged rear wing hung on the wall at Mawer Engineering for many years but has now been lost and the front ones disappeared during the course of a workshop move many years ago. That is quite a shame as they would now be a prized item even if only for display purposes.

#12 SJ Lambert

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 07:13

James, Garrie made quite extensive use of balsa when making some of the early wings he used. When I first acquired my 600 in the early 70's it came with a lovely set of rather small front and rear wings in which aluminium sheet had been framed over balsa wood formers. The workmanship was first class and no doubt was a throw back to Garrie's model aircraft days. By the time they came to me the aero section was no longer up to scratch and they were quickly discarded after I had damaged the rear wing sufficiently to be able to see just how they were constructed. The damaged rear wing hung on the wall at Mawer Engineering for many years but has now been lost and the front ones disappeared during the course of a workshop move many years ago. That is quite a shame as they would now be a prized item even if only for display purposes.



Very interesting Paul!!!

I wonder whether there's still any in the ME5 these days!!!

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Edited by SJ Lambert, 21 July 2010 - 07:14.


#13 Ray Bell

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 12:43

So how do these comparisons stack up?

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Quite a few changes to the car for "Historic" racing, obviously...

#14 seldo

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 14:03

So how do these comparisons stack up?

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Quite a few changes to the car for "Historic" racing, obviously...

What a fat-looking car! Love it!. Thanks - great photos.

#15 Duc-Man

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 14:39

We had some discussion about how 'historic' the German rebuild of the car had become...


Are you talking about fellow dutchman Harm Lagaay?

My question is how the car would have envolved if it was raced over a longer period of time. Look at some of the Porsche 956/962 for example.

#16 Ray Bell

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 15:15

But the fact is that the car didn't evolve while it was racing...

In Australia there's a 'as it was, so it shall be' attitude (and set of rules), it disappoints us severely to see people take a car from us and take advantage of the lack of knowledge about that car in its new home to butcher it and make it faster than it should be.

#17 Duc-Man

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 16:24

Well, I do agree with you to a point. We have a regulation for street cars in Germany when it comes to getting a historic registration: all modifications using other than originally available parts have to be done in the first ten years after the first registration (like putting a V6 into an Astra).
I think the rules for historic race cars should be similar. Any modificatin done in the first ten years after the car was build are okay, anything afterwards should be turned down or not accepted at historic events.
When was the ME5 'restored'? It doesn't look like it couldn't be build back into original specs.

I sure have big problem with some cars like Peter Hoffmann's McLaren M8 and how it appears today.

Edited by Duc-Man, 21 July 2010 - 16:26.


#18 David McKinney

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 18:53

No, even simpler

It should be in the spec it raced in in period. Not necessarily as it left the factory, but as raced in period

#19 T54

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 19:01

The same comparison could be made of the Lang-Cooper, in the day VS as it is now...

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#20 Paul Hamilton

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 20:06


While I am not across all details of the ME5's current specification I believe that it IS in fact now in a form in which it ran in period although that includes some features which it acquired post the Niel Allen ownership. It was required to be very substantially changed when it returned to Australia before CAMS would issue a historic Certificate of Description. The car had been modified very significantly when it was based in Germany and the current owner has been required to complete substantial remediation works.

#21 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 22:55

From what I gather it is by and large the way it raced in Johnny Walkers hands. Apart from obvious things like different mirrors it is visually the same. I spoke to the owner at Mallala and I believe he had a lot of problems getting an historic logbook.I gather they wanted it restored to an earlier specification but the spec it is in is period and to me more interesting and attractive. Very nicely done.
At a guess SJ Lambert may know more of that saga.

#22 BT 35-8

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 23:10

I believe it is time to enter the discussion as the Chairman of the respective Eligibility Committee.

1] '' they '' did not want the car restored in an earlier form , we will never request that any car is
rebuilt to represent any point in time , that is ALWAYS the owners call as to what year he wishes the car
to represent when rebuilding/restoring.
2] Yes , we gave Mr. Lambert a certain amount of grief as to various aspects of the car when first presented
and required some major alterations prior to finally issuing a Certificate of Description.
3] The car now represents the mid 1980's period of John Walker's ownership.

Therefor the photo's of 1970 with Neil Allen in the car will vary from the car in the mid 1980's as now.

Bryan Miller.

#23 Pedro 917

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 08:06

Here are some pictures of an Elfin ME5 that I took at the Nürburgring Oldtimer GP in 2005. I never saw the car again.
It was driven by Harm Lagaaij but only drove 2 laps.

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Copyright Luc Ghys

#24 SJ Lambert

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 08:23

quote 'Pedro 917'

"Here are some pictures of an Elfin ME5 that I took at the Nürburgring Oldtimer GP in 2005. I never saw the car again.
It was driven by Harm Lagaaij but only drove 2 laps."




Looks an impressive weapon whatever guise it's presented in!! (Trevor, is adoption still an option?)

Edited by SJ Lambert, 22 July 2010 - 08:51.


#25 Duc-Man

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 10:12

No, even simpler

It should be in the spec it raced in in period. Not necessarily as it left the factory, but as raced in period


There we go right into the problem.
Look how long some cars are raced. Peter Hoffmann runs his McLaren since almost 40 years now and keeps modifing it. The car is far from being historically accurate and I wouldn't allow him to drive it in its current specs in historic races.
Or look at some of the Porsche group c cars like I pointed out before. Some of them raced for a long time and were redone over and over. So some of them might have five different historically important specs they could be presented in. And all are 'in period'.

Now what happened to the ME5 after its period racing career when it was in Johnny Walker's hands?

Edited by Duc-Man, 22 July 2010 - 10:20.


#26 SJ Lambert

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 11:35

From what I gather it is by and large the way it raced in Johnny Walkers hands. Apart from obvious things like different mirrors it is visually the same. I spoke to the owner at Mallala and I believe he had a lot of problems getting an historic logbook.I gather they wanted it restored to an earlier specification but the spec it is in is period and to me more interesting and attractive. Very nicely done.
At a guess SJ Lambert may know more of that saga.



I suspect the ME5 may have had it's last race in Johnnie Walker's hands at Sandown in Round 1 of the 1983 Australian Sports Car Championship at Sandown. He nailed down the second highest point score for the round, finishing 3rd in round one and second in round two, with only Kaditchas besting him on the day. There were three of them at that meeting including the scarily fast DFE Cosworth powered one of Bap Romano (I understand ex Williams F1 spanner man Wayne Eckersley was brought in to assist in sorting the Romano car after a first lap practice crash at Sandown - by the time I saw it at the 83 GP meeting at Calder later in the year it was just about scaring the pants off me, to that point, it was the fastest thing I'd ever seen...amazing).

Anyway, at Sandown, Johnnie put it onto 3rd grid spot with a 1.10.6 which at the time compared favourably with the then 11 year old lap record of Niel Allen in none other than, you guessed it, the ME5!!!! (I think it stood at 1.05.9) Peter Hopwood bunged the Lola T400 based Kaditcha on pole with a 1.05.7 and Chris Clearihan was on the outside of the front row with his 5 litre Chev powered Kaditcha with a 1.09.8 - the Elfin performing pretty well for a car from the sixties!!!

Johnnie led the first heat briefly up the back straight til the ground effects of the Hopwood Katicha ensured that he got by the Elfin. Walker also lost out to Clearihan, the two Kaditchas entered in to a ding dong battle with Walker shadowing 'em all the while - on the lap 10 he got past Clearihan and then at the end of the main straight, Walker ran wide allowing Hopwood back through - Walker repassed him for the lead only to lose out again to them both at the esses.

The second heat was less eventful with Johnnie taking up station behind the two Barry Lock machines, the ME5 being elevated to P2 by the end as Clearihan dropped off with gear selection problems and then ran out of fuel......Hopwood reduced the lap record to 1.05.4 - a fitting way for the ol' ME5 to pass the baton!!!

John sold the ME5 after that race meeting, I don't know whether it went around again Down Under after that - it did get a rebuild again in the 80's and Bob Minogue or others may well have given it a blast before it went to Germany.

Edited by SJ Lambert, 22 July 2010 - 11:37.


#27 David McKinney

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 11:45

There we go right into the problem.
Look how long some cars are raced. Peter Hoffmann runs his McLaren since almost 40 years now and keeps modifing it. The car is far from being historically accurate and I wouldn't allow him to drive it in its current specs in historic races.
Or look at some of the Porsche group c cars like I pointed out before. Some of them raced for a long time and were redone over and over. So some of them might have five different historically important specs they could be presented in. And all are 'in period'.

Now what happened to the ME5 after its period racing career when it was in Johnny Walker's hands?


Starting from the bottom - when in Walker's hands it was "in period", unless it's trying to race in a series with an earlier cut-off date, in which case it should comply with its spec at the time of the cut-off date

Similar story with Hoffmann's McLaren. He raced it more or less continuously and developed it year by year. If he's more recently developed it further for historic racing he shouldn't be admitted. Similarly, he shouldn't enter it in 1982 spec in a race with a, for example, 1976 cut-off


#28 SJ Lambert

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 11:55

I believe it is time to enter the discussion as the Chairman of the respective Eligibility Committee.

1] '' they '' did not want the car restored in an earlier form , we will never request that any car is
rebuilt to represent any point in time , that is ALWAYS the owners call as to what year he wishes the car
to represent when rebuilding/restoring.
2] Yes , we gave Mr. Lambert a certain amount of grief as to various aspects of the car when first presented
and required some major alterations prior to finally issuing a Certificate of Description.
3] The car now represents the mid 1980's period of John Walker's ownership.

Therefor the photo's of 1970 with Neil Allen in the car will vary from the car in the mid 1980's as now.

Bryan Miller.



Trevor scored COD number 1000 for the old girl didn't he? I reckon it looks fabulous as it's currently presented!!!

What was Niel running with the pulleys at the rear? Alternator? Johnnie was still running them/it in '83.

#29 Ray Bell

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 12:25

Yes, that was where the alternator lived...

It will always look fabulous to me.

#30 David Shaw

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 12:58

Personally, I love it in its most recent form with the shortened rear.

#31 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 13:13

The Elfin heritage centre site has ome interesting cars for sale. A 300, 360 and the MS7. A nice little range! The link is on the Elfin FJ/Catalia thread.



#32 ellrosso

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 23:03

If anyone wants to see it in period in Walker's hands I have a shot of it I took at Baskerville in 1981 on the oldracephotos.com website. Just type Walker into the Advanced Search - it will be on the second page. Only b/w but its pretty clear.

#33 Bondy

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 00:23

I think Bill Marshall may have been the next owner of the ME5 after Walker as he took part in the 1984 Oran Park Australian Sports Car Championship Round. He may not have actually raced, its been some 20 years since i have seen the race report ;)

#34 Duc-Man

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 09:16

I'd say everybody can stop now to blame the 'evil German' (who's Dutch) that he f***ed up the car.
It was fellow Aussie Johnny Walker...

Which makes the whole argument about propper restauration earlier obsolete.

#35 David Shaw

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 09:55

I believe it is time to enter the discussion as the Chairman of the respective Eligibility Committee.

1] '' they '' did not want the car restored in an earlier form , we will never request that any car is
rebuilt to represent any point in time , that is ALWAYS the owners call as to what year he wishes the car
to represent when rebuilding/restoring.
2] Yes , we gave Mr. Lambert a certain amount of grief as to various aspects of the car when first presented
and required some major alterations prior to finally issuing a Certificate of Description.
3] The car now represents the mid 1980's period of John Walker's ownership.

Therefor the photo's of 1970 with Neil Allen in the car will vary from the car in the mid 1980's as now.

Bryan Miller.


I think this indicates that there was a fair amount of work to do to bring it back to the state it was when owned by Johnnie Walker.


#36 Bondy

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 12:05

Does anyone have pictures of the ME5 when former Australian Sports Sedan Champ, Tony Edmondson raced it, it was during at least 1978....

#37 Duc-Man

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 12:54

I think this indicates that there was a fair amount of work to do to bring it back to the state it was when owned by Johnnie Walker.


Sorry, but what makes you think so?
To me it looks like the respective Eligibility Committee would have prefered it if the car was rebuild into its original 1970 specs.

When I look at the pictures of the car today and when it was in Harm Lagaay's hands there is not that much difference.
Apart from the paint job and with all the right parts this is maybe a days work (unless there were some major changes underneath the bodywork we don't know about).
From back to front:
The endplates/wing mounts are different, the wing itself is maybe a bit bigger.
The airbox has to be remounted.
The flat part in the middle of the front and the splitter are seperate parts mounted to the original front bodywork. They have to be replaced with the original wing.

I can't see any further differences between the car since the early 80's.

#38 David Shaw

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 13:11

Sorry, but what makes you think so?
To me it looks like the respective Eligibility Committee would have prefered it if the car was rebuild into its original 1970 specs.


I think that point 1] that I quoted shows that they had no preference for which period it represented.

I agree that most of the things that had to be changed were under the bodywork as you suggested.

#39 Ellis French

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 22:27

Does anyone have pictures of the ME5 when former Australian Sports Sedan Champ, Tony Edmondson raced it, it was during at least 1978....



This is at Baskerville in Elliots ownership but with Robin Pare driving.

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#40 ellrosso

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Posted 24 July 2010 - 12:40

I can only recall Tony having one outing in the car at Symmons (I wasn't there) - we certainly don't have any pics on the site of him in the car. Plenty of Pare though(including the accident at Baskerville).

#41 SJ Lambert

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 05:50

Yes, that was where the alternator lived...

It will always look fabulous to me.


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Looking snazzy enough!!



#42 ellrosso

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 07:14

Well there is another livery in Elliot colours. I found 3 Tassy race reports from Bask/Syms in 1979 and there was a shot of it from Syms (Edmonson driving) with a livery similar to the Alfetta. I will try and have another crack at posting an image - hopefully one of my tech-savvy daughters might have more success!
He had quite a few wins too.

#43 timbo

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 05:56

Some more photo's of the Elfin ME5 is various forms.
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#44 SJ Lambert

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 07:51

image.jpg


Trevor Lambert, Phillip Island Classic, 2016

Edited by SJ Lambert, 04 April 2016 - 08:01.


#45 lyntonh

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 10:35

I've just updated my photos on post #3 above by reposting from Photobucket.

The Imageshack fade away has happened again!



#46 SJ Lambert

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 11:00

Thanks Lynton!

#47 Wirra

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 11:09

You asked for it...but these are my last good shots of the car.
Warwick Farm Practice 6th Dec 1969

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Probably standing next to you, Lynton.

 

IMG_0046b_zpsfc7zrjpz.jpg



#48 TerryS

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 11:34

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Trevor Lambert, Phillip Island Classic, 2016


The ME5 in this form can only be described as bog ugly compared with Niel Allen's livery.

I'm sure everyone would agree with that comparison.

#49 TerryS

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 11:39

The ME5 ran at PI as a Group R car. This is for post 1 January 1978 cars.

Why is it in this Group when it debuted in 1969. Should it not be in Group O?

If it ran in its proper category then it would have to have its correct livery.

#50 lyntonh

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 11:41

One thing of note.....Either Niel was short and Trevor is tall,

or the driver sits on a cushion these days.