2395 replies to this topic

[keeppushingurep1]

Stop looking, it's simply not there.

Although I suspect the FIA has access to all the radio traffic, yet as they didn't release anything new I suspect it's either that there was no more regarding the team orders, or alternatively they're holding it back for the hearing.

well if there is more radio evidence (and i think there is no more at all) they are the most stupid team in current f1

[TT6]

We all know it was meant as such, yet the words "Fernando is faster" don't linguistically constitute an order.

I think that the actual wording is quite irrelevant. If a drug dealer under phone surveillance orders 300 pieces of high literature from his supplier, no one will believe he's started reading. Not even the police that's listening.

[as65p]

I think that the actual wording is quite irrelevant. If a drug dealer under phone surveillance orders 300 pieces of high literature from his supplier, no one will believe he's started reading. Not even the police that's listening.

Dieter Rencken in his latest piece adds another twist by suggesting a distinction could be made between "order" and "advice". For what it's worth...

[undersquare]

Dieter Rencken in his latest piece adds another twist by suggesting a distinction could be made between "order" and "advice". For what it's worth...

If Ferrari turn up to the WMSC with that story they are seriously doomed. They may as well just stand up and say "hello morons" .

It's gonna be interesting whether they come clean, admit it was an order and they lied about it, but the order was justified, or whether they continue with the bull and try to persuade them that the nonsense information that "Fernando is faster" actually meant something else, and if so what, with no cars in front or behind.

[as65p]

If Ferrari turn up to the WMSC with that story they are seriously doomed. They may as well just stand up and say "hello morons" .

It's gonna be interesting whether they come clean, admit it was an order and they lied about it, but the order was justified, or whether they continue with the bull and try to persuade them that the nonsense information that "Fernando is faster" actually meant something else, and if so what, with no cars in front or behind.

Taking everything into account what's been said and written since Hockenheim, I guess the chances of Ferrari being "doomed" are close to zero.

From my personal POV every kind of teamorder appears despisable and a shame, but realistically the FIA won't care too much about my views. Or yours.

[Lifew12]

So you are not looking at this from a biased point of view? Not at all?

No, not at all. I couldn't care less who wins the championship, team or driver, as i'm not someone who supports one driver or team at the expense of another. I'm not a 'Ferrari Fan' or whatever, but someone who has followed F1, and motor racing in general, for many years. I look at things, thankfully, in a much more practical manner than those who cry out all teh time for this penalty, that penalty, the other penalty etc, and accept that where rules are broken teams, and drivers, should be punished. I've yet to be told, still, what dragging Ferrari through what will likely be an expensive, inconclusive and unproductive WMSC meeting will achieve. They've been fined, been punished, and it's been made clear that what they did, the stewards believed was wrong. They didn't challenge that decision, and rightly so. Will giving Ferrari more sanctions rid the sport of clandestine team orders? No, of course it won't. Will it make the sport more 'fan friendly'? No, of course it won't. What, then, will it do? What is the point?

Try asking the population of Brazil? I doubt many from this country would view it as a "misdemeanour".

Wht has that got to do with it? The WMSC isn't concerned with the population of Brazil, but with Ferrari's actions in the race at Germany. You're using the same argument here that others have used saying 'what about all those people who bet on Massa?' It's of no relevance. If people are upset at team orders then, quite frankly, they shouldn;t watch a team sport, should they? You do understand, of course, that these are teams, that they are always going to work as teams when they see fit?

Because you are reacting to a fine of £100k, imagine how you might feel if the WMSC handed out £100 million? BTW..I am not recommending any paricular size of fine except that $100,000 is peanuts!

So you ARE recommending a particular size of fine, one bigger than $100k! But again, why? You're the one telling us that $100k is 'peanuts', so what isn't 'peanuts'? I'll tell you how I would feel if the WMSC saw fit to hand out a fine of $100m for what is a storm in a teacup - I would feel that they should be charged with bringing the sport into disrepute. It would be a disgrace, an absolute abomination, and a farce of the highest order for Ferrari to be given anything more than a reprimand.

I mean, let's face it, a case of outright, bloody dangerous and unnecessary driving gets a ten place grid drop at the next race, that's for an action that could have been lethal, and a team swapping its drivers, in a situation that none of can conclusively say was a direct order (and nor can the WMSC, although they operate on what they believe) gets a $100,000 fine, and you want them to get more? You're not a Schumacher fan, are you?

[undersquare]

the FIA won't care too much about my views. Or yours.

Great insight

[Gareth]

Dieter Rencken in his latest piece adds another twist by suggesting a distinction could be made between "order" and "advice". For what it's worth...

In the same piece that discusses the possibility that 39.1 is all about inter team orders rather than intra team orders ...

Or: "a top 3 list of ways to get ourselves out of this sticky mess whilst ignoring reality, as suggested by the FIA".

I would much prefer a result of "team orders to benefit a team within the WDC do not interfere with the race result, therefore 39.1 is not breached". It recognises that the rule existed at the time of Germany 2010, gives it a meaning that fits with the English language and past precedent and doesn't punish Ferrari for something that most people think they shouldn't get punished for.

PS not getting at you here at all - just the possibility/probability of the fudge that is about to occur ...

[Gareth]

If Ferrari turn up to the WMSC with that story they are seriously doomed.

Given the Rencken article, I am 99% sure that whatever story Ferrari turn up with will be one that the WMSC are happy to hear.

[sherer]

If Ferrari turn up to the WMSC with that story they are seriously doomed. They may as well just stand up and say "hello morons" .

It's gonna be interesting whether they come clean, admit it was an order and they lied about it, but the order was justified, or whether they continue with the bull and try to persuade them that the nonsense information that "Fernando is faster" actually meant something else, and if so what, with no cars in front or behind.

Why ? This is exactly what every team has done since 2002 and now the radio is open they just list it as advice rather than a team order. The FIA have been happy with this at all other times it has been done.

All Ferrari are guilty of is doing the same as everyone else but making it obvious, if Massa had a "brake problem" there would be no WMSC meeting at all.

[undersquare]

Given the Rencken article, I am 99% sure that whatever story Ferrari turn up with will be one that the WMSC are happy to hear.

Well if the FIA and Ferrari get together and agree what the story is, they'll be fine I agree.

That Recken version about 39.1 referring only to inter-team situations is more than far-fetched, bearing in mind what led to that rule, but if the WMSC want they can push it through regardless. At the cost of undermining the stewarding.

But if there is not a deal, and Ferrari do turn up with a bullshit story about it not being an order but only 'advice', in the face of Massa's reaction, then the WMSC members are going to feel insulted.

And experience tells us any story needs corroboration, even Renken's, so I'm keeping an open mind about it.

Anyway however it's managed, I hope we don't end up looking at an obviously dishonest process.

[Gareth]

Well if the FIA and Ferrari get together and agree what the story is, they'll be fine I agree.

I suspect this will happen. It also seems probable that, to avoid the possibility of an appeal, the FIA are also getting all the other teams in on the deal. Certainly Rencken alludes to this happening in the paddock at Hungary.

[undersquare]

I suspect this will happen. It also seems probable that, to avoid the possibility of an appeal, the FIA are also getting all the other teams in on the deal. Certainly Rencken alludes to this happening in the paddock at Hungary.

Yeah. But it does seem slightly odd to me that they're having a whole separate day on it, if the plan is to basically sweep it under the carpet.

That's going to be a whole day's F1 news all to itself, midweek, with a couple of days all to itself before the race weekend.

[sherer]

Yeah. But it does seem slightly odd to me that they're having a whole separate day on it, if the plan is to basically sweep it under the carpet.

That's going to be a whole day's F1 news all to itself, midweek, with a couple of days all to itself before the race weekend.

That's how the WMSC works. First of all it keeps F1 in the news while there is no racing going on.

During Mosley's time they had meetings before and arranged it all behind closed doors then had the actual WMSC and issued a press release afterwards. The FA and plenty of other sports bodies work in the same way

[rabbitleader]

I've yet to be told, still, what dragging Ferrari through what will likely be an expensive, inconclusive and unproductive WMSC meeting will achieve. They've been fined, been punished, and it's been made clear that what they did, the stewards believed was wrong. They didn't challenge that decision, and rightly so. Will giving Ferrari more sanctions rid the sport of clandestine team orders? No, of course it won't. Will it make the sport more 'fan friendly'? No, of course it won't. What, then, will it do? What is the point?

You are entitled to your opinion but unlike you I don't feel that Ferrari has been punished appropriately with a 100k fine. There was a rule put in place in 2002 so everything else that happened before this date is irrelevant. Ferrari were dumb enough to break that rule and bring F1 into disrepute. This is a serious charge and not just a misdemeanour. That requires a proper punishment and not just a fine that is peanuts to a multi million pound business. The penalty should also include the removal of Ferrari's WCC points for the German GP. If you break the rules you pay the price! It's not rocket science.

What has that got to do with it? The WMSC isn't concerned with the population of Brazil, but with Ferrari's actions in the race at Germany. You're using the same argument here that others have used saying 'what about all those people who bet on Massa?' It's of no relevance. If people are upset at team orders then, quite frankly, they shouldn;t watch a team sport, should they? You do understand, of course, that these are teams, that they are always going to work as teams when they see fit?

F1 has evolved and will continue to evolve for a variety of reasons including better safety standards. You should accept this and move with the times. That means that some practises will end such as blatant team orders (Austria 2002) because the public at large want to see their driver try and win the WDC while they still have a chance. That is something that you still fail to understand. Massa was visibly upset by the imposition of team orders and was probably made to acquiesce to Alonso's request by Ferrari. Massa and has since said that he would no longer do the same.

BTW, team orders was not required at Hockenheim because Ferrari was already in a position of maximising their WCC points. So, if it's a team sport in the way you believe it then we should remove the WDC! You are trying to have your cake and eat it. I would advocate limited team orders when a driver does not have a mathematical chance to win or allowing a team driver pass because of a different race strategy in order to increase the team's points.

So you ARE recommending a particular size of fine, one bigger than $100k! But again, why? You're the one telling us that $100k is 'peanuts', so what isn't 'peanuts'? I'll tell you how I would feel if the WMSC saw fit to hand out a fine of $100m for what is a storm in a teacup - I would feel that they should be charged with bringing the sport into disrepute. It would be a disgrace, an absolute abomination, and a farce of the highest order for Ferrari to be given anything more than a reprimand.

I mean, let's face it, a case of outright, bloody dangerous and unnecessary driving gets a ten place grid drop at the next race, that's for an action that could have been lethal, and a team swapping its drivers, in a situation that none of can conclusively say was a direct order (and nor can the WMSC, although they operate on what they believe) gets a $100,000 fine, and you want them to get more? You're not a Schumacher fan, are you?

You can relax as I expect Ferrari to get treated very favourably and not because of the merits of their case. Ferrari will benefit from another FIA stitch up. As I have said before, the WMSC is a political arena so don't look to the WMSC if you are hoping for justice. Ferrari will get away with it as always because unlike other teams which are made to grovel to the WMSC, Ferrari has many friends in the WMSC including Bernie. I expect them to get treated very favourably.

Edited by rabbitleader, 06 August 2010 - 12:39.

[undersquare]

That's how the WMSC works. First of all it keeps F1 in the news while there is no racing going on.

Well it all depends how they think it's going to be reported, given that they've set it up for a lot of coverage.

On the face of it you'd think they'd get favourable coverage from a hearing in which the governing body enforces its rules in a common-sense way and is against lying and obvious fudging. And vice-versa.

Nobody likes criticism, Jean Todt less than most. It's not FOM and Bernie. So that separate midweek day is a slight clue against the whitewash I would say.

[Lifew12]

You are entitled to your opinion but unlike you I don't feel that Ferrari has been punished appropriately with a 100k fine. There was a rule put in place in 2002 so everything else that happened before this date is irrelevant. Ferrari were dumb enough to break that rule and bring F1 into disrepute. This is a serious charge and not just a misdemeanour. That requires a proper punishment and not just a fine that is peanuts to a multi million pound business. The penalty should also include the removal of Ferrari's WCC points for the German GP. If you break the rules you pay the price! It's not rocket science.

You, too, are entitled to your opinion, but in many ways you miss my point. I'm absolutely in agreement that Ferrari should have been punished, as the stewards decreed - from the evidence they had - that team orders had been used. My point is that the use of team orders is not that big a deal, as it happens all the time, always has done, and always will. The rule, as it stands now, is no deterrent to teams or drivers, and that would be the same whatever fine or punishment is levied. They will just do it quietly, and clandestinely, as has happened many times in recent years.

Again, $100k is not 'peanuts' at all - its one hundred thousand dollars. It doesn't matter who you are, what your business is, how much you earn or whatever, it i still one hundred thousand dollars.

F1 has evolved and will continue to evolve for a variety of reasons including better safety standards. You should accept this and move with the times. That means that some practises will end such as blatant team orders (Austria 2002) because the public at large want to see their driver try and win the WDC while they still have a chance. That is something that you still fail to understand. Massa was visibly upset by the imposition of team orders and was probably made to acquiesce to Alonso's request by Ferrari. Massa and has since said that he would no longer do the same.

What have safety standards to do with team orders? Are you seriously suggesting (no, you can't be) that a sport which is contested by two car teams for points that count towards two world titles can possibly be run without teams using some form of order and manipulation? I'm afraid, with respect, I don't 'fail to understand' anything, other than the fact that it is a 'team' sport therefore there will always be team manipulation and instruction. So Massa was upset, too bad. He did it, after all, and whether he chose to do it or had to (which is my beliefe) by contract it's his fault either way. You should never agree to terms you don't like. He has said, yes, that he woul no longer do the same, but if you believe him you're being rather naive.

BTW, team orders was not required at Hockenheim because Ferrari was already in a position of maximising their WCC points. So, if it's a team sport in the way you believe it then we should remove the WDC! You are trying to have your cake and eat it. I would advocate limited team orders when a driver does not a mathematical chance to win or allowing a team driver pass because off a different race strategy in order to increase the team's points.

What are you on about? Why shoudl we remove the WDC? You draw some strange conclusions! Who are you - or I - to decide that 'team orders were not required' - that's up to the team, not us! You know why they switched the drivers places, after all. How can you possibly have 'limited team orders'? Are you saying, after your earlier comments, that the population of Brazil would be happy to see Massa move over and give away a win if he no longer had the possibility of winning the title? These are teams - they should be able to operate as teams, and if you don't like that, watch somethign else.

You can relax as I expect Ferrari to get treated very favourably and not because of the merits of their case. Ferrari will benefit from another FIA stitch up. As I have said before, the WMSC is a political arena so don't look to the WMSC if you are hoping for justice. Ferrari will get away with it as always because unlike other teams which are made to grovel to the WMSC, Ferrari has many friends in the WMSC including Bernie. I expect them to get treated very favourably.

What you expect and what will happen are two different things. In fact, I expect the WMSC to hand Ferrari a suspended ban and increase the fine. If you really believe we are still in the era of 'friends' at the WMSC, etc, you're rather mis-informed. Jean Todt can't be seen to favour Ferrari.

The problem I have is not that your opinions are particularly obtuse, but that they are rather odd at times; you still have to tell me what slapping a massive fine, ban or further penalties on Ferrari will achieve, yet I've outlined why it will achieve nothing. Sadly, the last few years have seen a new breed of 'fan' who sees penalties as part of the game. The slightest indesretion, the merest step out of line, and they clamour for teh stewards to act, for the FIA to pitch in, for all of this off track **** to appear and get in the way. As I said, here you are clearly incensed by Ferrari doing what people do all the time at Germany, and foolishly allowing the stewards no option but to punish them, while a driver with many years experience pulled a move that was downright disgusting on Sunday, much, much more worthy of a massive penalty than Ferrari's move, and you're pretty quiet on that one?

Like I said, are you a Michael Schumacher fan?

[sherer]

Well it all depends how they think it's going to be reported, given that they've set it up for a lot of coverage.

On the face of it you'd think they'd get favourable coverage from a hearing in which the governing body enforces its rules in a common-sense way and is against lying and obvious fudging. And vice-versa.

Nobody likes criticism, Jean Todt less than most. It's not FOM and Bernie. So that separate midweek day is a slight clue against the whitewash I would say.

Bernie sits on the WMSC and has a vote though.

Usually by the time they get to the WMSC it has already been sorted out behind closed doors anyway

[VresiBerba]

Again, $100k is not 'peanuts' at all - its one hundred thousand dollars. It doesn't matter who you are, what your business is, how much you earn or whatever, it i still one hundred thousand dollars.

And it's still a relatively small sum of money. Red Bull got half of that in fines over ordering Vettel to continue on three wheels in Melbourne 2009 as was McLaren for ordering Lewis to stop after the 2010 Canadian GP qualification. Both not nearly as bad as what Ferrari did in Germany. In the grand scheme of this sport, one that has a combined budget of all competitors over 3 billion US dollars, 100.000 IS peanuts. As a comparison, Ferrari got a one million dollar fine for the podium shenanigans in Austria 2002, that's ten times (!!) more for something of only academical value.

Edited by VresiBerba, 06 August 2010 - 13:14.

[rabbitleader]

You, too, are entitled to your opinion, but in many ways you miss my point. I'm absolutely in agreement that Ferrari should have been punished, as the stewards decreed - from the evidence they had - that team orders had been used. My point is that the use of team orders is not that big a deal, as it happens all the time, always has done, and always will. The rule, as it stands now, is no deterrent to teams or drivers, and that would be the same whatever fine or punishment is levied. They will just do it quietly, and clandestinely, as has happened many times in recent years.

The Stewards decreed that 100k was not enough. That is why they fined Ferrari the maximum and referred them to the WMSC for a higher penalty!

There are team orders and there are team orders in the way Ferrari implemented them so foolishly to bring F1 into disrepute!

And as you said "the rule as it stands now is no deterrent to teams or drivers" if the fine is only 100k!

What have safety standards to do with team orders?

Safety standards has nothing to do with team orders but I used it as one of many reasons why F1 does not stand still. We can't keep harking back to years gone by to preserve the status quo.

Are you seriously suggesting (no, you can't be) that a sport which is contested by two car teams for points that count towards two world titles can possibly be run without teams using some form of order and manipulation? I'm afraid, with respect, I don't 'fail to understand' anything, other than the fact that it is a 'team' sport therefore there will always be team manipulation and instruction. So Massa was upset, too bad. He did it, after all, and whether he chose to do it or had to (which is my beliefe) by contract it's his fault either way. You should never agree to terms you don't like. He has said, yes, that he woul no longer do the same, but if you believe him you're being rather naive.

In your opinion! We'll have to wait and see how Massa reacts going forward. But I do believe that Brazilians would be understanding of Massa moving aside if he no longer had a chance of winning the WDC, rather being told to give up his chance prematurely and in so doing become a #2 driver at the half way point!

Why shoud we remove the WDC? You draw some strange conclusions! Who are you - or I - to decide that 'team orders were not required' - that's up to the team, not us! You know why they switched the drivers places, after all. How can you possibly have 'limited team orders'? Are you saying, after your earlier comments, that the population of Brazil would be happy to see Massa move over and give away a win if he no longer had the possibility of winning the title? These are teams - they should be able to operate as teams, and if you don't like that, watch somethign else.

Unlike you I don't support the use of team orders when one driver still has a mathematical chance of winning. Ferrari was in a position to secure maximum WCC points so why Ferrari was seeking to manipulate the WDC or is the WDC just another WCC title? With the rules as you understand them, Alonso could become WDC even though this is only the result of a team orders result by just one team and effectively a pseudo WCC, hence Raikkonen winning at expense of ALonso/Hamilton in 2007. So, why bother having a WCC then in the way you want team orders? Don'y know why you find the logic so hard to understand (even if you don't agree with it).

What you expect and what will happen are two different things. In fact, I expect the WMSC to hand Ferrari a suspended ban and increase the fine. If you really believe we are still in the era of 'friends' at the WMSC, etc, you're rather mis-informed. Jean Todt can't be seen to favour Ferrari.

Bernie is still very active on the WMSC. Just a quick glance at the posts on this website suggests that I am not alone thinking that a secret deal will be done. Perhaps you are being naieve rather than I being mis-informed.

The problem I have is not that your opinions are particularly obtuse, but that they are rather odd at times; you still have to tell me what slapping a massive fine, ban or further penalties on Ferrari will achieve, yet I've outlined why it will achieve nothing. Sadly, the last few years have seen a new breed of 'fan' who sees penalties as part of the game. The slightest indesretion, the merest step out of line, and they clamour for teh stewards to act, for the FIA to pitch in, for all of this off track **** to appear and get in the way. As I said, here you are clearly incensed by Ferrari doing what people do all the time at Germany, and foolishly allowing the stewards no option but to punish them, while a driver with many years experience pulled a move that was downright disgusting on Sunday, much, much more worthy of a massive penalty than Ferrari's move, and you're pretty quiet on that one?

I don't understand why you can't accept that someone else might have a different opinion on what is the appropriate penalty. What did the $100million fine to McLaren achieve but it did not stop FIA pushing for this fine (and probably to the satisfaction of Ferrari).

I have not commented on the Schumacher drive incident but I agree that FIA should have thrown the book at Schumacher. However, this is an individual and not a team issue so the two are not comparable.

Like I said, are you a Michael Schumacher fan?

No I am not. Never have been. Are you sure that you are not a Ferrari supporter?

Edited by rabbitleader, 06 August 2010 - 13:24.

[engel]

Guys I fear you are way overanalyzing, there will be a pre-WMSC meeting, they will agree on what Ferrari will accept blame for and what the punishment will be and it will be over.

It's not a case the FIA or anybody will want to start poking into, and the FIA definitely doesn't need more controversy surrounding F1.

[Lifew12]

The Stewards decreed that 100k was not enough. That is why they fined Ferrari the maximum and referred them to the WMSC for a higher penalty!

There are team orders and there are team orders in the way Ferrari implemented them so foolishly to bring F1 into disrepute!

And as you said "the rule as it stands now is no deterrent to teams or drivers" if the fine is only 100k!

The thing is, there are team orders and there are team orders; you surely can't be advocating that Ferrari should be slated because we could all see it, while others shouldn;t because we couldn't? That's a great dollop of double standards there.

Safety standards has nothing to do with team orders but I used it as one of many reasons why F1 does not stand still. We can't keep harking back to years gone by to preserve the status quo.

But it is still a team sport; there are still two championships to go for, and two cars in a team, yes? So you will always have team orders.

In your opinion! We'll have to wait and see how Massa reacts going forward. But I do believe that Brazilians would be understanding of Massa moving aside if he no longer had a chance of winning the WDC.

I think you're being very hopeful; I doubt the Brazilians upset watching Germany were so because he was asked to move aside and still had a mathematical chance of the title - I very much think that they were upset because he was asked to move aside, full stop.

Unlike you I don't support the use of team orders when one driver still has a mathematical chance of winning. Ferrari was in a position to secure maximum WCC points so why Ferrari was seeking to manipulate the WDC or is the WDC just another WCC title? With the rules as you understand them, Alonso could become WDC even though this is only the result of a team orders result by just one team and effectively a pseudo WCC, hence Raikkonen winning at expense of ALonso/Hamilton in 2007. So, why bother having a WCC then in the way you want team orders? Don'y know why you find the logic so hard to understand (even if you don't agree with it).

I find what you're sayin hard to understand because it's not logic at all; there are two champiosnhips, and there is no 'pseudo' WCC. It is the WCC that determines teh order and the payout at the end of teh season, and it is the WDC that determines teh drivers champion. If Alonso had not been given the win and lost the championship by the difference between first and second Ferrari - and he - would be very pissed off. The fact that it made no difference to the WCC is why they could do it.

Bernie is still very active on the WMSC. Just a quick glance at the posts on this website suggests that I am not alone thinking that a secret deal will be done. Perhaps you are being naieve rather than I being mis-informed.

Oh, I'm well aware of Bernie's involvement, but doubt a 'secret deal' will be arrived at despite the number of 'insiders' and 'sources' pitching in. The WMSC will rule on what they see fit - we are not in the Mosley era now, and Bernie didn't even have the final say then! Far from being naive, i'm expressing what I think will happen; the WMSC will hit Ferrari harder than has already been seen.

I don't understand why you can't accept that someone else might have a different opinion on what is the appropriate penalty. What did the $100million fine to McLaren achieve but it did not stop FIA pushing for this fine (and probably to the satisfaction of Ferrari).

I can accept that people have a different opinion, but I can't accept that $100,000 is 'peanuts', because it's not, not even to Ferrari. Your counter with 'what did the $100,00,000 achieve answers my point - nothing. So why bother dragging Ferrari through the process, costin a lot of money, for nothing?

I have not commented on the Schumacher drive incident but I agree that FIA should have thrown the book at Schumacher. However, this is an individual and not a team issue so the two are not comparable.

The stewards ruled on both. Of course they are comparable.

No I am not. Never have been. Are you sure that you are not a Ferrari supporter?

I'm not a 'Ferrari supporter' at all; it pains me that, these days, there is this underlying belief you have to be a 'fan' of someone, or something. I love motor racing, always have, and while I have my tendencies I'm no supporter of any team, driver, nationality or whatever over any other. Which is precisely why I can accept that Ferrari were rightly fined $100,000, but that to stick any more on them is utterly pointless. It matters not to me who wins a race, or a title, so long as I see a good race. That's why I watch F1, and that's why I travel to club meetings all over teh country on odd weekends. I would be calling the $100,000 'enough' whoever had been involved, and exprfessign the very same opinions whatever the situation. I'm afradi it simply shines through that you have a desire for Ferrari to be slammed not because you think it necessary, but because it may benefit AN Other. A pity, that, as it will do nothing for the good of the sport whatsoever, and is a qaste of time, money and effort.

They've been punished, let that be it.

[rabbitleader]

They've been punished, let that be it.

In your opinion. The racing stewards obviously don't agree with you otherwise Ferrari would not have been referred to the WMSC. As you know, 100k is an arbitrary maximum amount that the stewards can fine and they obviously deemed that this was not enough hence the WMSC for a more appropriate penalty so the case is not closed for the POSSIBILITY of a greater penalty until discussed by the WMSC whether you agree with that or not.

[VresiBerba]

In your opinion. The racing stewards obviously don't agree with you otherwise Ferrari would not have been referred to the WMSC. As you know, 100k is an arbitrary maximum amount that the stewards can fine and they obviously deemed that this was not enough hence the WMSC for a more appropriate penalty so the case is not closed for the POSSIBILITY of a greater penalty until discussed by the WMSC whether you agree with that or not.

The maximum amount is actually 50.000 but they got two of them, one for each offence 39.1 and 151c. Ferrari was referred to the WMSC after Austria 2002 as well, and there they got fined one million dollars for something extraordinary trivial in comparison. Fooling around on the podium isn't close to breaking the rules for competitive purposes, nor for lying to the stewards.

Edited by VresiBerba, 06 August 2010 - 13:59.

[Gareth]

$100k is the maximum fine the stewards could give (well, $50k is but they did them for 2 offences). But there are other, much greater, penalties they could have applied: DQ from the race, for example.

The $100k fine and reference to the WMSC is, to me, an admission by the stewards that the issues around rule 39.1 are over their head to deal with, rather than a message that they think this is terrible but they weren't allowed to do any more.

[keeppushingurep1]

how do you think massa dealt with the situation in Hockenheim?






IMO opinion u can choose between not helping your team, or helping, but what he did ......

[fabr68]

If you followed the rumors of the closed door teammate tension at Ferrari, it all seems to revolve around pre-race "agreements" that get broken or unwillingly met when they are due.

From the race edit, it appears that there was a teammate agreement based on speed and time gap presumably to avoid the clown performance Red Bull did at Turkey.

I doubt Massa would had complied at all without a discussion on the matter prior to the race start.

[VicR]

Rumors have it that during the WMSC gathering on September 10th in Como, Italy they will swap Alonso's and Felipe's positions, remove the 43 points from Ferrari's WCC contest and fine Ferrari a substantial sum (rumored to be hefty). There is currently also a discussion to strip both drivers of their points but let them keep the honours.

What do I think of these rumors? You make your own bed...

Edited by VicR, 15 August 2010 - 01:11.

[Apex]

Rumors have it that during the WMSC gathering on September 10th in Como, Italy they will swap Alonso's and Felipe's positions, remove the 43 points from Ferrari's WCC contest and fine Ferrari a substantial sum (rumored to be hefty). There is currently also a discussion to strip both drivers of their points but let them keep the honours.

What do I think of these rumors? You make your own bed...

Where did you hear these rumors?

[ivand911]

In this moment, team orders are forbidden. Ferrari need to be punished according the rules now, but they can want this rule to be changed after this case is over. Like Michael was punished in Monaco according to the rules then. It wasn't right, but they follow the rules, and FIA change them after the case. I think MGP could be happy with 100k penalty and to keep 6-7 place for Michael. And here we talk about first place.

[britishtrident]

Jean Todt is between a rock & a hard place on this one, my guess is Ferrari will get the fine doubled and Ferrari, Alonso, & Massa will all get stripped of points. Alonso & Massa both had parts in this, Alonso's radio transmissions to the pit wall triggered the whole sequence of events, and Massa could have said no.

In the long term the rules need changed & clarified, perhaps along the lines that team orders are allowed but not when one of the cars is running in what would be a podium position.

[Anomnader]

Rumors have it that during the WMSC gathering on September 10th in Como, Italy they will swap Alonso's and Felipe's positions, remove the 43 points from Ferrari's WCC contest and fine Ferrari a substantial sum (rumored to be hefty). There is currently also a discussion to strip both drivers of their points but let them keep the honours.

What do I think of these rumors? You make your own bed...

I could believe it but its impossilbe to swop the positions.

[Apex]

I could believe it but its impossilbe to swop the positions.

Time-penalty for Alonso?

[YellowHelmet]

Time-penalty for Alonso?

why should alonso get a penalty?
weird thoughts

[scheivlak]

Some historical reference to the debate, cue september 2003, pre-USGP:

But Brawn also saw nothing wrong with one driver helping another to win the Championship. "If you've got two drivers in the last race and one can win the World Championship, you don't want the other guy getting in the way. I think that's legitimate.

"If the other guy then tries to take an action which improves his teammate's position beyond staying out of the way then I think that's possibly going over the mark."

http://atlasf1.autos.../id/11786/.html

[Kraken]

Nothing will happen. Hopefully they will scrap the stupid rule or replace it with one to stop inter team orders ala Williams and McLaren.

People seem to think that orders that tell a driver not to overtake are Ok but ones where they do aren't for some reason. The former happens time and time again but you don't see people being dragged off to hearings for it.

[Hollow]

my guess is Ferrari will get the fine doubled and Ferrari, Alonso, & Massa will all get stripped of points.

That's not your guess, that's your wish. It won't happen so time to wake up.

[Mandzipop]

Rumors have it that during the WMSC gathering on September 10th in Como, Italy they will swap Alonso's and Felipe's positions, remove the 43 points from Ferrari's WCC contest and fine Ferrari a substantial sum (rumored to be hefty). There is currently also a discussion to strip both drivers of their points but let them keep the honours.

What do I think of these rumors? You make your own bed...

Source?

I don't know why they'll be making the decision on 10th September as the hearing is on 8th September.

[Seanspeed]

Source?

Wishful thinking.

[Ferrari2183]

Wishful thinking.

I think it's wishful thinking too. The guy blames Alonso for everything shitty in F1 and he says he is a Ferrari supporter but he will not support Alonso...

[aditya-now]

Rumors have it .....

What do I think of these rumors? You make your own bed...

I think that you try to start that rumour.....
Well, you made your bed, sleep well and keep on dreaming. I don´t have to make my own bed.

[gaston_foix]

I think that you try to start that rumour.....
Well, you made your bed, sleep well and keep on dreaming. I don´t have to make my own bed.

[sherer]

Rumors have it that during the WMSC gathering on September 10th in Como, Italy they will swap Alonso's and Felipe's positions, remove the 43 points from Ferrari's WCC contest and fine Ferrari a substantial sum (rumored to be hefty). There is currently also a discussion to strip both drivers of their points but let them keep the honours.

What do I think of these rumors? You make your own bed...

Why is the hearing in Como and not Paris or London where the FIA have offices ?

[Biggles Flies Undone]

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

[BullHead]

very good.

[Buttoneer]

As and when a source can be found for the 'news' VicR has come up with a new thread can be started, and if not then, a new one for the WMSC meeting.

So for that reason, thread closed.