44 replies to this topic

[Blythy]

I think you can't fully allow team orders, or deny them completely, because there are times when it makes sense to do so, and times like today where it doesn't.

If I was drawing up the rules, I'd have it as follows:

No team orders, except:

-In the last 10% of the race, you can stop one driver from attempting to overtake another if the laptimes are within a limit (e.g. a few tenths for several laps) I.e. to prevent crashes.

-In the last quarter of the season, if 1 driver is in a position to win the championship mathematically, and the other isn't, then you can ask the other to move aside at any point.

That's the only fair and reasonable way I can see it working. Although I'm sure nobody will agree.

[kooratzi]

I think you can't fully allow team orders, or deny them completely, because there are times when it makes sense to do so, and times like today where it doesn't.

If I was drawing up the rules, I'd have it as follows:

No team orders, except:

-In the last 10% of the race, you can stop one driver from attempting to overtake another if the laptimes are within a limit (e.g. a few tenths for several laps) I.e. to prevent crashes.

-In the last quarter of the season, if 1 driver is in a position to win the championship mathematically, and the other isn't, then you can ask the other to move aside at any point.

That's the only fair and reasonable way I can see it working. Although I'm sure nobody will agree.

They have to be 100% allowed, in every moment for every team.

[kismet]

All the team orders you could possibly want and then some - as long as you only mess with your own drivers' races.

[soonah98]

Don't allow them in any situation. And rigorously enforce this so that the sport remains competitive.

[Szoelloe]

All the team orders you could possibly want and then some - as long as you only mess with your own drivers' races.

+1

current situation is really hypocritical. Generates lying, controversial situations, and humiliation for the drivers.

[kooratzi]

Don't allow them in any situation. And rigorously enforce this so that the sport remains competitive.

So the teams will conduct their intra-team deals and agreements before the races and behind the closed doors.

[Dunder]

I think that team orders should be allowed, period.

The rule that has been in place for the last 8 years is totally unworkable, has been breached many times and was a knee-jerk reaction to a very specific set of circumstances.

[Fastcake]

If your other driver can't mathamaticly win the championship, or if the other drivers car is damaged as to not be able to challenge any further in the race.

I don't know how well the second could be controlled, but these are the only situations I find team orders to be justified.

[YellowHelmet]

The team order rule that forbids team orders which effects the outcome of a race is a rule full of loopholes and also of injustice!

how should it be changed to be good for the sport as as well it could be supervised?

[YellowHelmet]

I think that team orders should be allowed, period.

The rule that has been in place for the last 8 years is totally unworkable, has been breached many times and was a knee-jerk reaction to a very specific set of circumstances.

[undersquare]

They should just drop the rule. In 2002 Ferrari were obviously going to regret it, and in 2010 they're regretting it again.

[Clatter]

All the team orders you could possibly want and then some - as long as you only mess with your own drivers' races.

Public opinion will keep things in check.

[Rob]

I'd get rid of the radios. I don't want teams stage managing races for the drivers. It also prevents coded radio messages being given.

[YellowHelmet]

I'd get rid of the radios. I don't want teams stage managing races for the drivers. It also prevents coded radio messages being given.

that would change a lot, not just in case of team orders! (team orders could be spoken out before a race!)
i am for it!

Edited by YellowHelmet, 25 July 2010 - 16:57.

[ffiloseta]

F1 as it stands today is a TEAM EFFORT. Forbidding team orders is stupid and the source of a lot of hypocritical situations. I don't understand why people get so heated up about team orders anyway...

[Clatter]

I'd get rid of the radios. I don't want teams stage managing races for the drivers. It also prevents coded radio messages being given.

Then they would simply use the pit boards. Wouldn't make any difference at all.

[wj_gibson]

Let them do what they like. If that means teams start employing clear no. 1 and no. 2 drivers for the entire season, then we all have the option of the OFF switch on the TV.

[Clatter]

F1 as it stands today is a TEAM EFFORT. Forbidding team orders is stupid and the source of a lot of hypocritical situations. I don't understand why people get so heated up about team orders anyway...

Because, whether you agree or not, they are against the regulations.

[Showty]

It´s so difficult and so, let´s say, personal, to say which ones should be allowed and which one shouldn´t...that they simply should be allowed.

And by the way, right now, all team orders are forbidden, everything we´ve seen the past, no matter what meant to the championship, was forbidden.

Edited by Showty, 25 July 2010 - 17:04.

[alfa1]

Either ban then completely and enforce it with 100% authority, or make it open and free for team work.
One or the other.
I dont care which.
What riles people on here is the inconsistent apprach the FIA takes to everything, where rules are sometimes enforced, a bit, in some situations, with varying penalties and perhaps not even investigated at all in others.

[TheArmchairCritic]

Surely all teams go through all scenarios with drivers pre race, you shouldn't have to explicitly tell a driver to 'move' aside and if he chooses not to 'move' the team can always manufacture it through pit stops etc. Like or not team orders are part and parcel of F1, the manner Ferrari do it though is bemusing.

Edited by TheArmchairCritic, 25 July 2010 - 17:07.

[soonah98]

Keep the ban and rigorously enforce them It might be the fact that teams set up codes or hand out orders before hand. But the real issue with the Ferrari fiasco today was that it was so in your face.

[wj_gibson]

Keep the ban and rigorously enforce them It might be the fact that teams set up codes or hand out orders before hand. But the real issue with the Ferrari fiasco today was that it was so in your face.

So it would be better if they contrived for Massa to "run wide" at the hairpin instead with an instruction such as "F2, Felipe, F2"?

At least in today's race it was very clear to everyone what was happening.

[smartie_f1]

So the teams will conduct their intra-team deals and agreements before the races and behind the closed doors.

That happens anyway - which is why there are coded messages over the radio such as teammate is faster than you. Its already been pre agreed what that phrase means.

[Dragonfly]

'Coded' messages just help turning the race into a farce. I'd prefer there not to be an explicit ban on team orers and let the teams decide how they gonna spoil their public image.

[MrAerodynamicist]

You can have team orders when one driver is mathematically out of contention, but you must inform the FIA at the first possible opportunity that you intend to do so.

You can have team orders when there is more than a strong possibility that it will increase the teams total points.

[kooratzi]

That happens anyway - which is why there are coded messages over the radio such as teammate is faster than you. Its already been pre agreed what that phrase means.

Exactly. And that's why this rule is idiotic.

[Ferrim]

Don't allow them in any situation. And rigorously enforce this so that the sport remains competitive.

And so Kimi Räikkönen lost the 2007 WC because his teammate, who couldn't improve his championship position, didn't let him past.

Yeah.

[kooratzi]

I'd get rid of the radios. I don't want teams stage managing races for the drivers. It also prevents coded radio messages being given.

The coded message "SAV FUEL" on the pit board would have the same effect.

[bourbon]

Teams should just designate #1 and #2 drivers, which can change during the season and be allowed full team orders. Drivers, yes even my favs, would just have to suck it up. The most im/portant entity is the team which must last after drivers go. WCC is the means for establishing this. When drivers think it is all about them, which most seem to do, it can kill team prospects on the year and in the future.

[rabbitleader]

F1 as it stands today is a TEAM EFFORT. Forbidding team orders is stupid and the source of a lot of hypocritical situations. I don't understand why people get so heated up about team orders anyway...

Try telling that to Massa. He looked well pissed off!

[kooratzi]

Teams should just designate #1 and #2 drivers, which can change during the season and be allowed full team orders. Drivers, yes even my favs, would just have to suck it up. The most im/portant entity is the team which must last after drivers go. WCC is the means for establishing this. When drivers think it is all about them, which most seem to do, it can kill team prospects on the year and in the future.

I fully agree.

[kooratzi]

Try telling that to Massa. He looked well pissed off!

So what? Had he finished 2nd, Alonso would have been even more pissed after missing the pole by 0.002 secs, having to start on the dirty side, being squeezed by Vettel and being faster than Massa on pace.

[Clatter]

So what? Had he finished 2nd, Alonso would have been even more pissed after missing the pole by 0.002 secs, having to start on the dirty side, being squeezed by Vettel and being faster than Massa on pace.

So that makes it all alright does it?

[Mr2s]

I've heard Bletchley park is still there, perhaps they can decode teams messages?

Or perhaps just improve the tracks so faster drivers dont get stuck behind slower ones and we end up with a desperately boring train of competitors. Probably the only sport this happens.

[Hairpin]

I'd get rid of the radios. I don't want teams stage managing races for the drivers. It also prevents coded radio messages being given.

Something like that. I don't think it would be very difficult to hide some kind of a receiver that could light up a LED, or simply print something on the steering wheel display, but still. Remove pit boards as well, the cars can get gap data from FiA. Install a fuel monitor/calculator in the car and let the driver decide when to push, when to save.

Or force the teams to state openly if they have driver/assistant driver and if so, let them do as they wish. Lying is forbidden in F1.

[kooratzi]

So that makes it all alright does it?

Yes, I'm perfectly comfortable with team orders. I approve of them fully, at every moment.
Ferrari did the right thing. It's a pity the rules are so stupid they have to lie about it.

[Supersleeper]

I think you can't fully allow team orders, or deny them completely, because there are times when it makes sense to do so, and times like today where it doesn't.

I wouldn't have any.

If you asked me as a team principal what was the point of racing in F1 - I'd say to score as many points for the team as possible. It a function of "celebrity" that people think that the WDC is a greater honour than the WCC. As a team principal - given the choice between a WCC and WDC - I'd take the WCC - it pays the bills. So what does that have to do with team orders?

They piss drivers off.

Nobody can seriously say that todays events haven't had a negative impact of Felipe. I - for, the life of me - cannot understand that in a situation where a team is trying to accumulate as many points as possible - it would deliberately piss off one of its' drivers and contribute to the likelihood that his performances for the second half of the season may be affected. If team orders were ever to be applied - it would come at a time when their requirement would be self evident. Today wasn't a case of that. Team orders should occur only in exceptional circumstances - and should be done by asking a driver to go to a different engine map.... and have everyone know what that means.

[Atreiu]

I'm okay with all team orders. The FIA should not have a word on this.
What I don't like is to see Massa in such a submissive and humiliating role, or Alonso to walk away full of pride after cheating (Singapore 2008) or outright given (today) wins. Show some decency moral, for fecks sake.

[Clatter]

Yes, I'm perfectly comfortable with team orders. I approve of them fully, at every moment.
Ferrari did the right thing. It's a pity the rules are so stupid they have to lie about it.

I agree that team orders should be allowed. Banning them was a knee jerk reaction, but that's the point, they are banned and therefore Ferrari did not do the right thing.

[kooratzi]

I agree that team orders should be allowed. Banning them was a knee jerk reaction, but that's the point, they are banned and therefore Ferrari did not do the right thing.

I hope that this incident will start the process of abolishing this stupid rule. In that sense, ferrari did the right thing. Someone has to stop this FIA lunacy.

[baddog]

All attempts to ban team orders are:

1- Doomed to failure. Smart teams will always be able to manipulate behind the scenes or use code words.
2- Based on creating and propping up a 'show' not a genuine competition.
3- Based on forgetting that the team is the entrant, the driver is one of their employees.

Team orders have always been and will always be a part of any sport where multiple competitors are run by the same entrant. They exist in every kind of motorsport and are accepted all over the world in every series without any real controversy. For some reason in F1 we are supposed to think teams invest hundreds of millions for reasons other than to achieve what THEY want to achieve?

If some teams choose to run two drivers with no internal preference then they do so because they see it as either beneficial to their chances or beneficial to their image. In the latter case they usually are doing stuff behind the scenes anyway.

Just forget the whole idea and let teams run their teams as they wish. It is noone elses business, and if a driver isnt happy he knows what to do.

[kooratzi]

All attempts to ban team orders are:

1- Doomed to failure. Smart teams will always be able to manipulate behind the scenes or use code words.
2- Based on creating and propping up a 'show' not a genuine competition.
3- Based on forgetting that the team is the entrant, the driver is one of their employees.

Team orders have always been and will always be a part of any sport where multiple competitors are run by the same entrant. They exist in every kind of motorsport and are accepted all over the world in every series without any real controversy. For some reason in F1 we are supposed to think teams invest hundreds of millions for reasons other than to achieve what THEY want to achieve?

If some teams choose to run two drivers with no internal preference then they do so because they see it as either beneficial to their chances or beneficial to their image. In the latter case they usually are doing stuff behind the scenes anyway.

Just forget the whole idea and let teams run their teams as they wish. It is noone elses business, and if a driver isnt happy he knows what to do.

Great post!

I simply cannot understand what all this fuss is all about. I couldn't understand it in Austria 2002, I cannot understand it today.
What's wrong with all these people? team strategies and tactics are employed in every sport, yet only in F1 there are rules AGAINST(!!!) team members working as a team!

Edited by kooratzi, 25 July 2010 - 22:51.

[Hairpin]

I'm okay with all team orders. The FIA should not have a word on this.
What I don't like is to see Massa in such a submissive and humiliating role, or Alonso to walk away full of pride after cheating (Singapore 2008) or outright given (today) wins. Show some decency moral, for fecks sake.

Dilemma there, isn't it? The teams are dictated by sponsors. Like banks, insurance companies, oil companies. Tobacco companies. You think they have any decency? You think they are guided by "fair play" principles and ethics? I used to be against 39.1, but todays events showed me that the rule is necessary. Necessary but harmless since 99/100 of all team orders that possibly affects race results are never investigated. That does not mean that they should let #100 slip as well.

[MaxisOne]

I guess some of you are all forgetting who directly or indirectly pays the bills..

Keep insisting on having spectacles like the ones we just witnessed today and see how quickly the sponsors start walking away. This is just a one off .. but sometimes even a one off (Singapore and Renault) = massive repercussions..

The general public does not like a fixed race when they expected an actual race.

You can do this two ways ..

Allow team orders ... but regulated and IN THE OPEN.... Declaring to the FIA and therefore to the public the 1 / 2 before the season starts or at some fixed point (75%) of the season after a driver has a clear lead or have no team orders which is the teams decision.

Any other way and the goodwill of the supporters and related sponsors will be eventually lost.

Ferrari may have won the race and congrats to them on their car development but their sportsmanship is severely lacking and i would suggest that they take into consideration that their sponsors do not like bad press ... This race generated lots of it..