80 replies to this topic

[Dan333SP]

The thread title says it all, really. Just watched the latest episode of Top Gear, which I know many of you can't stand, but they did a really nice tribute to Senna in honor of what would have been his 50th birthday. Great footage of some of his best laps and races, and a very cool moment when Clarkson takes Lewis Hamilton to Silverstone to test an ex-Senna MP4/4. The joy of the experience is definitely genuine, and it's nice to see one of the current superstars humbled by the mystique of a car that his hero drove, and one that is also so challenging and dangerous to push to its limits. If you get a chance to check out the tribute, it's definitely worth it. The only niggling issue I'm sure some others will have is that they make mention of his '88 Monaco pole lap, and show external footage from that session, but they keep cutting to in-car camera footage that sounds like a V10 or a V12 from '89-'92. Anyway, had to be noted. Sorry if this doesn't dig deep enough into the past for the nostalgia forum, but it'd be buried in a sea of team orders posts on the "other" board here.

Edited by Dan333SP, 26 July 2010 - 05:04.

[Giraffe]

I saw it, and whilst not being a huge Senna fan, it was spine-tingling at times. Lewis does know the history of the sport and I was aware of that, but nothing prepared me for his reaction.

[Wouter Melissen]

He was already supposed to drive the car at Goodwood last year but one Bruno Senna smashed the gearbox the day before. Neil Trundle managed to fix the problem with parts from three different gearboxes. Seeing Hamilton's reaction, that was well worth it.

[rallen]

Yeah I watched it, complete suprise when I saw it and all sorts of memories came flooding back - and anger at how our sport now is knowhere near as good as it used to be. The footage was amazing, I do pine for those days, I recomend anyone to watch it on iplayer.

[Hamish Robson]

For those who are interested and may have missed it last night (as I did), Top Gear is repeated tonight at 7.0pm on BBC2 in the UK. The Senna tribute was the last feature, probably around 10/15 mionutes-worth. From the snippet I caught it looked extremely well done, with Clarkson showing that he can, occasionally, produce quality television.

[Gary C]

What do you mean?? 'Top Gear' is ALWAYS quality television..........................................only joking. I'll get my coat.

[kayemod]

Yeah I watched it, complete suprise when I saw it and all sorts of memories came flooding back - and anger at how our sport now is knowhere near as good as it used to be. The footage was amazing, I do pine for those days, I recomend anyone to watch it on iplayer.

Well put, but you're just pining for the late 80s, many of us on here are pining for the late 70s or even late 60s or earlier. The steady decline of F1, of racing in general in fact is a continuing process that saddens a great many of us, many of whom like me aren't even pensioners yet. Pass me my Werther's Originals please.

[TheArmchairCritic]

From another Topic in Racing Comments.

[rallen]

Well put, but you're just pining for the late 80s, many of us on here are pining for the late 70s or even late 60s or earlier. The steady decline of F1, of racing in general in fact is a continuing process that saddens a great many of us, many of whom like me aren't even pensioners yet. Pass me my Werther's Originals please.

I completely agree Rob, I find the most exciting era the late 60's and 70's however there is not too much footage of those years knocking about so all I have is old race reports to read as I do not have first hand memories of being there considering I was born in 1978, so all I have is more recent first hand footage from the late 80's early 90's which was still a cut above anything you get now. I forgot cars used to spark back then! it was still so raw brilliant. Naturally I still watch todays racing but thats more habit really I never feel physically sick with excitment and nerves like I used to when I watched it back in the day ;)

Yes frustrating that there is not better footage of the past, watching a tiny little screen on youtube through a knackered laptop doesn't really cut the mustard

[Stephen W]

Enjoyed the whole programme, the Senna tribute was excellent and Hamilton's contribution was very interesting - I especially liked his comment about not wanting to go back into the pit lane!

[Pullman99]

What do you mean?? 'Top Gear' is ALWAYS quality television...

A surprising item in a way for Top Gear, but superbly done and a real delight. And Tom Cruise and Cameron Diaz as the "Stars in the Resaonably Priced Car" too! Does that make the programme better? I thought that the previous week was pretty dire so last night's programme may, hopefully, have restored the balance towards an occasionally more serious and well presented element amongst all the frivolity. Well done all at Top Gear for last night's feature.

[Frank de Jong]

Well put, but you're just pining for the late 80s, many of us on here are pining for the late 70s or even late 60s or earlier. The steady decline of F1, of racing in general in fact is a continuing process that saddens a great many of us, many of whom like me aren't even pensioners yet. Pass me my Werther's Originals please.

We've had this sort of discussion many times, all I can say is enjoy what you see today - it might look much better in 20 years (I predict that F1 is still in decline in 2030!). I have seen two Hockenheim F1 races in 1977 and 1978 and they were boring - compared to that yesterdays race was more entertaining.

[FerrariV12]

For my sins I regularly watch Top Gear (not religiously, but catch it more often than not), and was extremely pleasantly surprised when the tribute came on. It was so refreshing to see non-contemporary F1 on free-to-air terrestrial TV too. If it prompts just one 10 or 11 year old F1 fan to be intrigued about how the sport was back then and look up more (as I did in the early 90s) it would have been worth it.

I must admit to only being old enough to have first-hand experience from mid-1991 onwards (although I have vague recollections of 1989 and Berger's crash, and of generally going around in my pedal go kart pretending I was "Nigel Mansell in his Ferrari"), and they say any fan's favourite period will always be his childhood one where he was introduced to the sport, but for me I too got all nostalgic about those early 90s races, for me that was the ultimate period. I don't doubt the 80s, 70s, 60s etc. were even better, but since I have no first hand recollection I only have tapes, reports, books etc. to go on.

[Formula Once]

We've had this sort of discussion many times, all I can say is enjoy what you see today - it might look much better in 20 years (I predict that F1 is still in decline in 2030!). I have seen two Hockenheim F1 races in 1977 and 1978 and they were boring - compared to that yesterdays race was more entertaining.

Mind you, in ten, fifteen years time we will probably all hail what is happening today anyway...

As for the Top Gear-tribute; nicely done indeed. And, unless they cut a special deal with FOM, expensive too!

Edited by Formula Once, 26 July 2010 - 08:35.

[kayemod]

We've had this sort of discussion many times, all I can say is enjoy what you see today - it might look much better in 20 years (I predict that F1 is still in decline in 2030!). I have seen two Hockenheim F1 races in 1977 and 1978 and they were boring - compared to that yesterdays race was more entertaining.

Can't let you get away with that Frank, leaving aside that breathtakingly skillful pass that Alonso pulled on Massa, he's certainly worth every penny that Ferrari pay him, apart from that, there was hardly a single worthwhile passing manoeuvre in the entire race, apart from the controversy, what did you find "entertaining"?

On Top Gear though, I was so pissed off by last week's dire offering, one of their worst ever, that I didn't bother to watch last night, but thanks for the tip lads, I've just set the DVDR, and will enjoy it later (while sucking a Werthers Original, of course).

[monoposto]

For those who are interested and may have missed it last night (as I did), Top Gear is repeated tonight at 7.0pm on BBC2 in the UK. The Senna tribute was the last feature, probably around 10/15 mionutes-worth. From the snippet I caught it looked extremely well done, with Clarkson showing that he can, occasionally, produce quality television.

Tonights repeat at 7PM is apparently the final time it will be shown due to F1 film rights . . . Watch it !

[rallen]

Clarkson mentioned a Senna film that is going to be coming out in the next year or so and advised us to watch it, I haven't heard of a film - has anyone got any details? the way Clarkson spoke it was as if he had seen a preview - anyone know if it is even at this stage?

[stevewf1]

From another Topic in Racing Comments.

Senna was simply magic. Still, to this day, I really don't know how else to describe it...

[TheArmchairCritic]

Clarkson mentioned a Senna film that is going to be coming out in the next year or so and advised us to watch it, I haven't heard of a film - has anyone got any details? the way Clarkson spoke it was as if he had seen a preview - anyone know if it is even at this stage?

http://www.jamesalle...ns-this-autumn/

[rallen]

http://www.jamesalle...ns-this-autumn/

Brilliant thanks, sounds good - though I wonder, if it is approved by his family, will it gloss over his flaws? which in my mind make him more interesting and human. Will there be footage of Japan 1990...

[rallen]

Should point out I was never a Senna fan, though I did enjoy watching him.

[Frank de Jong]

Can't let you get away with that Frank, leaving aside that breathtakingly skillful pass that Alonso pulled on Massa, he's certainly worth every penny that Ferrari pay him, apart from that, there was hardly a single worthwhile passing manoeuvre in the entire race, apart from the controversy, what did you find "entertaining"?

I seem to recall a few passing manoeuvres in that nice hairpin, I was surprised by the start and Massa and Alonso had a nice fight before you-know-what happened, and I liked the radio comments of the people involved - couldn't believe my ears. Didn't saw must of the second half of the race I must admit, but I enjoyed myself.

[zakeriath]

Brilliant thanks, sounds good - though I wonder, if it is approved by his family, will it gloss over his flaws? which in my mind make him more interesting and human. Will there be footage of Japan 1990...

I had the pleasure of meeting Asif & Manish at last years BGP, and spent some time talking about the project. According to them they have full approval and access from the family, along with the door opening backing of BCE.

They also promised tickets to the opening and I put them in contact with various marshals who had Senna stories to tell.

Still checking the post, but not arrived yet.

[captkenn]

I hought the Senna tribute was excellent - and unexpected. Some of the shots are classic and I particularly liked the side by side shot of him and Mansell.

It is a great pity that F1 has caught the PC disease. I watched every British (and most French) GPs in the sixties and so pleased that I have these memories. At most of them being able to walk around the pits paddock and grid talking with the drivers mechanics and team bosses...

[Coral]

I just watched it on iPlayer as I missed it last night. I thought it was excellent, happy memories especially of Donington in 1993. I loved Lewis's enthusiasm as he was driving Senna's car. A fantastic tribute and I can't wait for the film.

[Andrew Kitson]

I think it is last night's Top Gear repeated on BBC2 right now as I type...just started.

[Gary C]

Yes, I must admit, it was well done. Nice to see Neil Trundle looking after the car when they let young Lewis loose in it @ Silverstone.

[Pink Snail]

Watched the whole programme tonight after being told to by Chris Evans on todays BBC2 Breakfast show! Had a housefull of family because it`s my sons (Joseph Ayrton!!) birthday. The whole house fell silent for the last 15 minutes of top gear - enough said? Yes it was great to see Jezza doing some serious TV with Lewis and yes I did have a tear in my eye remembering some of the great races that took place ON TRACK in the `good old days`....Ayrton was awesome because he gave us all so much to remember him by. Good also to see some of the more recent drivers (inc MSC) putting Senna as No:1. The family that were present tonight now know why I go on about the days when F1 gave us entertainment galore. The Senna film will be top of my list of things to do when it comes out.

[sterling49]

The lap at Donington, so very special, the 1st Top Gear that I have watched for ages.

[MCS]

Mind you, in ten, fifteen years time we will probably all hail what is happening today anyway...

Words fail me.

[PCC]

Mind you, in ten, fifteen years time we will probably all hail what is happening today anyway...

And I suppose you expect that in ten or fifteen years, we will also look back at today's cars and call them beautiful...????

[stuartbrs]

And I suppose you expect that in ten or fifteen years, we will also look back at today's cars and call them beautiful...????

That depends how much uglier they are in 10 - 15 years time!! :-)

[Formula Once]

And I suppose you expect that in ten or fifteen years, we will also look back at today's cars and call them beautiful...????

Yes. And dangerous.

[ryan86]

The lap at Donington, so very special, the 1st Top Gear that I have watched for ages.

It actually gave me an interesting thought. Andretti was at least 6th, got by Schumacher, caught up with Wendlinger in a corner or two and then they collided, but it made me wonder what would have had happened he got cleanly by Wendlinger, that perhaps the McLaren was just impeccably set up for those conditions.

***

However, since Senna died before my interested was gained, whilst I acknowledge the brilliance he showed in a car, I actually have no real emotional attachment. Indeed, probably my deepest emotioanl moments are of Damon Hill, that's not because Hill was a better driver, it's just they evoke memories of the late 90's. Anything about Senna I have read or seen years after the events and therefore the emotional attachment is minimal.

Edited by ryan86, 26 July 2010 - 22:21.

[midgrid]

It actually gave me an interesting thought. Andretti was at least 6th, got by Schumacher, caught up with Wendlinger in a corner or two and then they collided, but it made me wonder what would have had happened he got cleanly by Wendlinger, that perhaps the McLaren was just impeccably set up for those conditions.

There was an article in Autosport a couple of years ago that went through McLaren's greatest wins with Ron Dennis, and Dennis said that he viewed that race as an almost certain 1-2 gone missing.

[David Birchall]

For those of us in N.America and other places that will not get this for a while here it is on youtube:

[Jack-the-Lad]

I love TG. Its lack of political correctness is fresh air for us Yanks. Wish we got the full length programs, though....

Edited by Jack-the-Lad, 27 July 2010 - 00:24.

[Dan333SP]

Good also to see some of the more recent drivers (inc MSC) putting Senna as No:1

No surprise there, he's the only guy left on the grid who raced Senna wheel to wheel for wins, and faced his ruthlessness on track when attempting to pass the great Brazilian. It's clear where he learned his vicious style that was on display in '94 and '97 to use the most infamous examples.

I love TG. It's lack of political correctness is fresh air for us Yanks. Wish we got the full length programs, though....

There are ways. I'm in the US, and I watched the whole thing in HD on the same day it aired in the UK... Just gotta know where to look

[Dan333SP]

Another thought on Senna... It's no wonder that he's so revered, as he was the right driver at the right time who went out in the right way to earn literally legions of fans during his career and for decades after his death. He arrived as a good looking and self absorbed raw talent right when the TV exposure of the sport was reaching current levels of saturation, he happened to drive the most iconic cars in the most iconic liveries (JPS Lotus, Marlboro Mclaren, Rothmans Williams... need I say more?) in an era when the cars were at their all time peak of power and IMO beauty, before being fully castrated by regulations and electronics ('89-'91 Mclarens and Ferraris looked and sounded better than anything before or since, though many will disagree). Not only that, he raced against and dominated some drivers that are among the all time greats, and died in a very public way at the height of his powers, almost as a martyr for F1's popularity. As tragic as the tale is, it literally couldn't have been scripted any better if it were a fictional movie. I only caught the last couple years of his career, but I'll always be in awe of his talents.

[Lights]

Just saw the feature. Well put together, although I had seen most of the footage before. I liked Lewis run it in.

[rallen]

It actually gave me an interesting thought. Andretti was at least 6th, got by Schumacher, caught up with Wendlinger in a corner or two and then they collided, but it made me wonder what would have had happened he got cleanly by Wendlinger, that perhaps the McLaren was just impeccably set up for those conditions.

Interesting thought, though I watched Andretti with interest that season and it seemed his biggest problem was not with getting to grips with the technology which is often sited but the fact that he didn't seem to be able to do the basics such as get by anyone cleanly let alone Wendlinger! As an interesting what if - Wendlinger himself was doing a good job, wonder where he could have finished if Andretti had not taken him out?

Regarding Donnington, didn't Senna dismiss the victory as being down to his traction control - there is a quote from him knocking about regarding this.

[Hamish Robson]

"If" is "F1" backwards...

The Senna feature was excellent, the BBC clearly worked very hard to make it a decent document. I now look forward to the upcoming Senna movie with great anticipation.

[Michael Ferner]

Interesting thought, though I watched Andretti with interest that season and it seemed his biggest problem was not with getting to grips with the technology which is often sited but the fact that he didn't seem to be able to do the basics such as get by anyone cleanly let alone Wendlinger! As an interesting what if - Wendlinger himself was doing a good job, wonder where he could have finished if Andretti had not taken him out?

Well, it was the other way round, wasn't it? Andretti was on the inside, and though Wendlinger was still ahead by a nose, he failed to give the McLaren any room. In my opinion, Andretti's problem was pretty much down to not being a known force in F1, and not being used to "earn his overtaking spurs" - he was well known as a charger in the US, but not in F1. On that day, he followed Senna's path almost move by move, but whereas Senna had "paid his dues" in the form of many accidents in his formative years, to the point that most drivers almost instinctively gave him the room he needed, Andretti had no such stature yet - in F1, that is!

[Stephen W]

Well, it was the other way round, wasn't it? Andretti was on the inside, and though Wendlinger was still ahead by a nose, he failed to give the McLaren any room. In my opinion, Andretti's problem was pretty much down to not being a known force in F1, and not being used to "earn his overtaking spurs" - he was well known as a charger in the US, but not in F1. On that day, he followed Senna's path almost move by move, but whereas Senna had "paid his dues" in the form of many accidents in his formative years, to the point that most drivers almost instinctively gave him the room he needed, Andretti had no such stature yet - in F1, that is!

Also Michael Andretti based himself in the US and put in very little test mileage.

[FerrariV12]

Regarding Donnington, didn't Senna dismiss the victory as being down to his traction control - there is a quote from him knocking about regarding this.

Yeah I was going to post this after reading the Andretti post further up - if I remember rightly he basically said that Portugal '85 was a far more impressive performance to him personally than Donington '93.

[Formula Once]

Yeah I was going to post this after reading the Andretti post further up - if I remember rightly he basically said that Portugal '85 was a far more impressive performance to him personally than Donington '93.

And it was.

[Fabs]

Yeah I was going to post this after reading the Andretti post further up - if I remember rightly he basically said that Portugal '85 was a far more impressive performance to him personally than Donington '93.

Yeap! He didnt dismiss his Donington 93 victory.. he just said Estoril 85 was far more difficult because conditions were as bad but there was no traction control.. in Donington, he had an easier time staying in the track.. and THAT was his toughest win

[rallen]

Interesting view but not sure I agree with this, if you are in the top level you should be able to overtake without the 'help' of your competitor. It is the basic skill of single seater racing and shouldn't be acheivable by hoping the guy your racing against lets you through, you should be better than that.

I can however see that he might have had the opinion that if he put his car there, the other person would give him space because he believed he was of a higher status - however he should have realised that this was not the case after his first race and his first crash!

In what regard is he held outside of the f1 world?

In my opinion, Andretti's problem was pretty much down to not being a known force in F1, and not being used to "earn his overtaking spurs" - he was well known as a charger in the US, but not in F1. On that day, he followed Senna's path almost move by move, but whereas Senna had "paid his dues" in the form of many accidents in his formative years, to the point that most drivers almost instinctively gave him the room he needed, Andretti had no such stature yet - in F1, that is!

[Henri Greuter]

And it was.

I agree.
Donington '93 had only about 10 or so cars that were fitted with traction control, Jerez 85 there weren none so in that respect the field was much more equal. (Because of the equality of cars at Barcelon '96 I rate MS first victory ever for Ferrari higher then Senna's '93 Donington victory)

Besides that, Jerez '85, the turbo years, with the slight dileay in throttle response and turbo power rushing in in spades.... On a soaked track, phew....
As negative as I have been about Senna over the years, Monaco '84 and Jerez '85 are the two races that for me showed the very best there was inside him.
I turn off Donington, but I take a seat for watching Jerez '85 another time.

Henri

[mfd]

I agree.
Donington '93 had only about 10 or so cars that were fitted with traction control, Jerez 85 there weren none so in that respect the field was much more equal. (Because of the equality of cars at Barcelon '96 I rate MS first victory ever for Ferrari higher then Senna's '93 Donington victory)
Besides that, Jerez '85, the turbo years, with the slight dileay in throttle response and turbo power rushing in in spades.... On a soaked track, phew....
As negative as I have been about Senna over the years, Monaco '84 and Jerez '85 are the two races that for me showed the very best there was inside him.
I turn off Donington, but I take a seat for watching Jerez '85 another time.
Henri

I think you mean Estoril not Jerez?

Edited by mfd, 28 July 2010 - 12:48.