34 replies to this topic

[Don Capps]

The clock is ticking....

This is the place to discuss your thoughts and nominations for The Pantheon of Racers...

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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

Semper Gumbi: If this was easy, we’d have the solution already…

[Dennis David]

I'll start with my favorite driver the original regenmeister, 3-time European Champion, 6-time winner of the German GP, and the first non-Italian to win the Mille Miglia, Rudolf Caracciola.

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Regards,

Dennis David
Grand Prix History

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

[Leif Snellman]

>(2a)This requirement can be waived due to a death as a result of a racing accident to 10 years.

This is the Stefan Bellof part of the rules.

[Ray Bell]

Can I mention the winner of the 1968 British Grand Prix, the man who drove so many cars with such gusto, one of the few to master the 917, the maestro whose countrymen outlawed motor racing... Jack Durlacher's friend and Rob Walker's moustachioed companion, Joe (Seppi) Siffert?

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Huw Jenjin]

I would have thought Mario Andretti would have to be in there somewhere, and to a lesser extent but for the same reasons, Emerson Fittipaldi and Noigel Mainseal.

[f li]

R Peterson

[Keir]

Chris Amon, need I say more!!

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"I Was Born Ready"

[KzKiwi]

"Der Nebelmeister", the one and only Bernd Rosemeyer.
Staggeringly fast as well as courteous, he had a superior wins per start ratio than either Caracciola or Nuvolari

[Joe Fan]

I have made it easy for everyone by posting my ten selections along with a short comment on each driver on the other thread. The ten I posted are the firsts one who should really get inducted in my opinion. Any other driver will have to wait until next year or when they are first elgible.

[Joe Fan]

Huw Jenjin, a driver must have been retired at least 15 years in the sport he is being nominated from (unless he was killed in the act of racing then it gets reduced to 10 years). This immediatly eliminates Nigel Mansell. Emerson and Mario both retired from CART in the 90's. I guess you could still nominate them based upon their F1 career accomplishments but Mario fame came from IndyCars and that is where his peak years were spent mixing it up with A.J. Foyt. All of the above drivers should eventually make the Pantheon club but I still think both drivers should have to wait the required amount of years based upon their CART retirement date. There are still plenty of great deserving drivers to nominate until then.

[Joe Fan]

Don, is there a limit to the number of drivers that can be elected or is there a required number of votes that must be cast to get inducted to the Pantheon club? Just curious.

[Ray Bell]

How long is it since Mario ran in F1, exactly? It must be at least 16 or 17... And when were his 'prime' years? He hit F1 in 1969, from memory, was there most of the time up to 1980 or 81... surely he's eligible? Or, better still, make a blanket ruling that any front-rank racing disqualifies.
For instance, Alan Jones last drove F1 in 1986... he's up for next year, then. Has only competed in tin tops since, hardly front rank racing, and his couple of dalliances in endurance races would hardly count?

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Joe Fan]

Ray, Mario didn't run in F1 full-time until 1975. He ran in only a handful of races in the years from 1969-1974. He only started in 21 races during this time span.

[Psychoman]

Jacques Lafitte should get in--he did consistently well in Ligiers. Need I say more?

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http://mrpsycho61636...d.com/home.html
Pauly Shore--That could have been the smartest thing or the dumbest thing you have ever done.
Stephen Baldwin--Probably both.
--Bio-Dome

[Ray Bell]

Jack Lafferty, the Irishman? By my reckoning (I was watching the race in bed with my then-new wife) he last raced eleven years ago... and he wasn't killed in that race... doesn't qualify.

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[This message has been edited by Ray Bell (edited 04-30-2000).]

[Mike Argetsinger]

Just for the record. It has twice been stated that Mario Andretti first raced F-1 in 1969. Actually his debut race was in 1968 in the USGP at Watkins Glen (he put the Gold Leaf Team Lotus on the pole!)

[Fast One]

You are right, Mike. I posted elsewhere about that race. It was my very first trip to the Glen! I still have the program as well. Now what's the name of the little diner with the great meatloaf sandwiches?

[Joe Fan]

One driver who I would appreciate that others to take into strong consideration for the Pantheon, is Masten Gregory. Masten will probably never get into any Hall of Fame (there is hope since Wendall Scott made it into the hall) but he along with Harry Schell were true pioneers being the first Americans to compete in F1 on a regular basis. Masten recorded America's first ever podium in the sport in his very first GP start at Monaco. He no doubt opened some eyes and helped pave the way for the Phil Hills, Dan Gurneys, Richie Ginthers, etc. in the sport. He is one of those drivers who never got the real break that he needed and thus drove very inferior machinery. There is no doubt in my mind from talking to his brother and from what I have read from his competitors that he was every bit as good as Phil Hill and other big name drivers at that time. Masten and his brother both competed against Hill and Shelby in various sports car races in the U.S. prior to their F1 careers.

Masten's brother recommended at one time that he hire an agent to help further his career but he said that Masten never was into all of that, he just cared about racing. Masten was probably a little more of an independent thinker than the F1 constructor's desired which is no doubt why he never got a ride with a top team. Masten's brother said that one time he tested an IndyCar at the 500 but he refused to drive it because he said the car was too squirrely. Some other fairly big name driver (who he couldn't remember) eventually took the ride and was killed in it very early on in the race.

As far as Masten's trademarked bailouts, he did it to prevent himself from more serious injuries so I am confident that Masten had a stroke of genius in those situations because he told his brother after one of his bailouts, that he was going to hit a huge earth embankment (that would probably have killed him). I am sure that Masten's bailouts did not set well with the owners and may have seemed crazy to at the time. However, he survived racing in two of the most dangerous decades in motorsports history and his most well know accidents weren't a product of his own driving skill, he was just a victim of circumstances--steering failure and unexpected on-track manouvers from competitors which led to evasive actions.

[Mike Argetsinger]

That would be Chef's Diner (FastOne inquiry). It's still there (half way between Watkins Glen and Montour Falls) and the food is as great as ever! Tony Pulos still owns and runs it. Tell him hi for me next time you stop by.

[Fast One]

Yes, Mike, that's it!!! Thank you so much! Great little place...

[Don Capps]

I have made the change and opened a new thread for the nominations. Cutting and pasting is fine by me.

I am still struggling to narrow it to 10, I keep thinking of worthy Racers all the time.

So far, this is what I have without any thought whatsoever:

Tazio Nuvolari
Stirling Moss
Bernd Rosemeyer
Rudi Caracciola
Louis Chiron
Jimmy Murphy
Jimmy Bryan
Mark Donohue
Dan Gurney
A.J. Foyt
Al Unser, Sr.
Parnelli Jones
Masten Gregory
Gilles Villeneuve
Guy Moll
Eugenio Castellotti
David Bruce-Brown
Rick Mears
Jean-Pierre Wimille
and, sigh, more and more keep popping into my mind...

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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

Semper Gumbi: If this was easy, we’d have the solution already…

[Jonathan]

Gilles Villeneuve
Ronnie Peterson
Stirling Moss
Tazio Nuvolari
Rudolf Caracciola
Bernd Rosemeyer
Tom Pryce
Achille Varzi
Wolfgang von Trips
Patrick Depailler

[Zepeteus]

Where's the Pantheon of Previous Nominations to be seen?

[Dave Ware]

Mario's last F1 ride was at Monza in '84. One of the Ferrari drivers couldn't make the race and SuperWop subbed. Got pole, third place in zee race. I always thought that was darn impressive since it had been a couple of years (but of course, Mario was one of the greats, and could make anything go fast.)

I think his last full F1 season was '80, with Alfa Romero. Could be wrong about that.

And although Mario's first F1 race was the Glen in '68, both he and Bobby Unser practiced for the Italian Grand Prix with intent to race. They both flew back to the states to compete in some sprint car race, (I can't imagine why), and there was a rule in place preventing drivers from competing in the Italian Grand Prix if they did another race in the 24-hour time period.

D.

[Don Capps]

Dave, it wasn't a sprint car race, it was a Champ Car event on the dirt mile at the Indiana State Fairgrounds, which was won by A.J. Foyt BTW.

Narrowing it down:

Definitely Nominating:
Tazio Nuvolari
Stirling Moss
Bernd Rosemeyer
A.J Foyt

High Probability for Nominations:
Rudi Caracciola
Jimmy Murphy
Jimmy Bryan
Gilles Villeneuve

To quote Bernie Taupin & Elton John, "The Reason They Call It the Blues..."
Louis Chiron
Parnelli Jones
Mark Donohue
Tony Brooks
Masten Gregory
Chris Amon
Al Unser, Sr.
Rick Mears
Stefan Bellof
Hermann Lang
Georges Boillot
Ferenc Szisz
David Bruce Brown
Felice Nazzaro
Antonio Ascari
Jules Goux
Robert Benoist
Guy Moll
Harry Schell
Luigi Fagioli
Achille Varzi
Jean-Pierre Wimille
Hermann Muller
Bruce McLaren
Bill Vukovich
and I am still coming up with names!

And I am considering a special category for non-drivers next time. My first nominee for this category is, naturally Miss Georgia/ Miss Pure Firebird/ Miss Hurst Golden Shifter, and several other titles as well:

Linda Vaughn...

Here she is with, ahem, [b]Ron[/] Capps just recently...



...and she still looks wonderful!!!

The Linda we fell in love with...


...and the reason my Olds 4-4-2 had a Hurst shifter!!!

And how about this factoid:

Not all of Linda's time at the races was spent as a trophy queen but as a competitor, as she got behind the wheel and competed (albeit briefly) in sports car competition after receiving her competition drivers license from the SCCA after successfully completing the driving course offered at the Bob Bondurant School of High Performance Driving.

Maybe I can get Bira to add Landa's site to our banners..

She is at: http://www.lindavaughn.com/ for those who have absolutely no idea of who she is...

See you!


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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

Semper Gumbi: If this was easy, we’d have the solution already…


[This message has been edited by Don Capps (edited 05-05-2000).]

[Joe Fan]

Don, I see that if you are considering A.J. Foyt that the rule requiring a driver to be reitred 15 years has been scrapped. This would make sense if Mika Hakkinen and Michael Schumacher are already in the Pantheon.

Also on the latest thread for nominations, there doesn't seem to be any rule now that the driver nominated must have been a open wheeler of some type during their career.

[Keir]

Everyone,
Check page six of the "Amon Thread", I believe I have made yet another good case for Chris Amon's induction into the HoF.

It's not too late to change your vote!!!

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"I Was Born Ready"

[Don Capps]

Read the regs and think "formula libre..."

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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

Semper Gumbi: If this was easy, we’d have the solution already…

[Ray Bell]

At least I know my nominees are okay.

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Falcadore]

As the Teller of the AF1NFPoR I need a few people to clarify their votes.

magnum - you voted for A.Ascari. Do you mean Alberto or Antonio?

I'm also making a few assumptions. Anyone who voted for Hans Stuck I assume will be Hans Stuck Senior, and that any voting for Hans Stuck Junior will specify 'Junior'.

Similarly a few have voted for Villeneuve. I'm assuming in those cases that those votes are for Gilles Villeneuve as Jacques Villeneuve is already in the AF1NFPoR as the 1997 Formula One World Champion.

Also, those who have voted for Mario Andretti, Alberto Ascari, Jim Clark, Juan Manuel Fangio and John Surtees, these drivers were all Formula One World Champions and are already inducted into the AF1NFPoR.

For those who don't know the following (member of the Atlas F1 Hall of Fame) are already inducted into the AF1NFPoR, Guiseppe Farina, Juan Manuel Fangio, Alberto Ascari, Mike Hawthorn, Jack Brabham, Phil Hill, Graham Hill, Jim Clark, John Surtees, Denny Hulme, Jackie Stewart, Jochen Rindt, Emerson Fittipaldi, Niki Lauda, James Hunt, Mario Andretti, Jody Scheckter, Alan Jones, Nelson Piquet, Keke Rosberg, Alain Prost, Ayrton Senna, Nigel Mansell, Michael Schumacher, Damon Hill, Jacques Villeneuve and Mika Hakkinen.

sorry to bring this up but the statistician in me demands that such a noble purpose must be done right.

sorry again to Don - I know I said I wouldn't think about it anymore, but the Ascari thing needed clarification and I got carried away from there

[Don Capps]

...And I was waiting...

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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

Semper Gumbi: If this was easy, we’d have the solution already…

[Joe Fan]

Keir, I will help you get Amon in if you help me get Gregory in. I can always vote for one the drivers on my list now next year. The sure bets so far look like Nuvolari, Moss, Caracciola, G. Villeneuve, Rosemeyer and Peterson.

[Nelson]

How about a few votes for Tony Brooks?

Stirling Moss rated him as the finest unknown driver, and who am I to argue?

[Keir]

Joe,
you are on!!!
Check the thread!!!!

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"I Was Born Ready"

[Joe Fan]

Nelson, if you check my post on underrated drivers, I have listed Tony Brooks. Tony was no doubt a great driver who was fast right out of the box but my only problem with him is that he retired early. His early retirement was due to several reasons: 1) a umcompetitive ride, 2) seeing some of his friends getting killed in the sport and 3) his marriage. I think he is worthy for the Pantheon but right now I think there are more deserving drivers who hung around longer and were more dedicated to the sport. For example, Masten Gregory was equally fast right out of the box and raced 20+ years despite witnessing up close as well as being in some rather disturbing crashes yet he ploughed right ahead. I had a chance to talk to Masten's first wife who said that she gave Masten an ultimatum, racing or her and their children. She didn't want to be a widow and she must have grown tired of the European life as Masten moved his family to a villa right across from the Ferrari factory when he first settled in Europe. She said that racing was too much a part of Masten that he wouldn't give it up. Although I admire the family man types, I have to hold a higher regard for someone like this had racing in his blood especially since he had to pay a huge penalty with a divorce. I will more than likely vote for Tony Brooks next year.



[This message has been edited by Joe Fan (edited 05-12-2000).]