31 replies to this topic

[Grano]

I know racing is banned in the land of clocks and remember hearing somewehere that it is because of some big accidents where quite a few spectators was killed back in the days before I even was a twinkle in my fathers eyes;) Could someone please inform me of exactly why this bann is there?

[MrAerodynamicist]

Aftermath of the big Le Mans crash, in 1955 [iirc but don't hold me to it]

[Ray Bell]

Absolutely. After the 83 or whatever it was died (and 200 or more were injured) at Le Mans in 1955 (there's a thread about the crash in the last week or two), several GPs and other races were dropped.
Among them was the Swiss GP at the beautiful but dangerous Bremgarten circuit.
It never returned.
The Mille Miglia went on two more years, then de Portago crashed into some spectators and it was canned.

[Ursus]

As I understand it was only circuit races that got banned, hillclimb events and the likes were still permitted. Or am I misinformed?

[Rob Ryder]

Quite correct, it was only circuit racing. Seppi always took part in the hill-climbs during the 1960's (usually in his F1 car!). I'll check out the actual locations and post them later.

I also seem to remember that Sauber managed to convince the authorities to let them use an airfield in Switzerland to do some engine testing on one occasion?

Rob[p][Edited by Rob Ryder on 12-14-2000]

[Rob Ryder]

As I promised I have checked for the venues of hillclimbs held in Switzerland. The only ones I have found are...

Fribourg
Les Rangiers
Ursanne
Ollon-Villars


I am not sure for how long these were run, but I have results up to 1974. Maybe someone knows when (if) they stopped being held?

Rob

[Ray Bell]

Seppi's first F1 car (this is good for a Swiss thread) was a Lotus 22. That's right, a 22!
With a Consul Classic crank to take it out to 1340cc it went into the 1300-1500cc range required for F1, they fitted slightly bigger wheels (I think they went to 6" rears!), and a little ballast to make it up to minimum weight.
That car now lives in Australia, lovingly restored by Bruce Mansell.
I was wrong about Scarfiotti, he died on June 8 and it was in Germany.

[Grano]

Thanks people, one less question on my mind;)

[Rob Ryder]

Ray

A Lotus 22 Formula Junior that Seppi used in 1961/2 - with Seppi conversion! According to his biography (Jacques Deschenaux 1972) the engine was a full 1500cc though?

Quote
" Siffert was starting in a Formula One race for the first time, the Brussels Grand Prix. The Lotus 24 had not been delivered by the factory so Colin Chapman lent him a 1500cc engine, dry sump, with two Weber carburettors, which after some detail alteration was installed in the Formula Junior car."

Rob
[p][Edited by Rob Ryder on 12-14-2000]

[Ray Bell]

This was before the release of the Cortina, so the engine had to begin life at the smaller size at least. It was my understanding that 1340 was the size, but I bow to better information. I would think that would require a special crankshaft.
Bruce Mansell may know more.
The 22 didn't arrive until the 1962 season, I'm sure...
That bio was done after his death, as well, so is it possible there is a lack of correctness as well?

[Marcor]

The book about Jo Siffert is called "Tout pour la course" (all for the race). I've got a copy in French but I don't know if an English translation ever exists. Rob Walker wrote the preface.

Here's the list of all the hillclimb races of Jo Siffert
14/08/60 Sierre-Montana (Valais) Stanguellini 7th
21/08/60 Urcy Stanguellini 7th
28/08/60 Ollons-Villars Stanguellini 2nd
11/09/60 Gainsberg Stanguellini 6th
18/09/60 Mont-Verdun Stanguellini 5th
19/03/61 Mont-Sur-Rolle Lotus 18 1st class
25/06/61 Mont-Ventoux (France) Lotus 20 1st
25/08/62 Ollons-Villars Lotus 24-Climax 1st
02/10/62 Chamrousse Lotus 24-Climax 1st
24/08/63 Ollon-Villars Lotus-BRM 2nd
29/09/63 Schauinsland Lotus 2nd
09/08/64 Schauinsland Ford-Cobra 3rd
06/06/65 Mont Ventoux (France) Brabham Repco 1st class
25/08/65 Rangiers Brabham-BRM 1st
21/08/66 Rangiers Cooper-Maserati 1st
20/08/67 Rangiers BMW T100 (F2) 1st
28/04/68 Fribourg McLaren Oldsmobile 4.4-litre 2nd
18/08/68 Rangiers Lotus-Ford 1st
26/04/70 Fribourg Brabham-Repco 1st

+ motorbike races ... (when he started his career)

[Ray Bell]

I think you'll find that June 1965 date's car description is misleading, for it would have been a Repco-Brabham. The Repco engines first ran very late in 1965, if not on the last day of the year (SA GP - Brabham). Even in Australia they didn't appear until 1966.
Repco, however, were identified as being a part of the Brabham cars by their being called Repco-Brabhams, whatever the engine used. Seppi was running a Repco-Brabham BRM in F1 events, but may have been put into a Formula 2 car for Hillclimbs.

[Marcor]

Seppi won indeed the Mont-Ventoux with a F2. As a winner he received a prize of 1000 Francs (French or Swiss I don't know but I suppose Swiss) and a bouquet of flowers !

I confirm the date, between the 1965 Monaco GP where he finished 6th and the Belgian GP where he was 8th. The following week he made his Le Mans debut with a huge 5-litre Maserati entered by Colonel Simone. His race lasted only 15 minutes. After 3 laps he got stuck in the sand at The Tertre Rouge...

After I would like to tell more about the Swiss circuit before 1955. You know Bremgarten and the Swiss GP. But do you know Erlen (East Switzerland GP in the 40's and the 50's), Montreux (one GP in 1934 won by Trossi), Genèves (Le Grand Prix des Nations in the 40's and 50's), Lausanne (in the 40's)... I'm sure there were other circuits. Is there a Swiss specialist in our forum ?

[fines]

Originally posted by Rob Ryder
As I promised I have checked for the venues of hillclimbs held in Switzerland. The only ones I have found are...

Fribourg
Les Rangiers
Ursanne
Ollon-Villars


I am not sure for how long these were run, but I have results up to 1974. Maybe someone knows when (if) they stopped being held?

Rob

Rob, as far as I know these hill-climbs still make up half of the Swiss championship trail these days. When I have a bit more time I can take a look at my Swiss magazines for the 2000 results, if anyone's interested.

[David McKinney]

A slightly longer list of Swiss hillclimb venues used since 1919:
(some may be the same venue under different names)
Albis
Langnau-Albis
Alistötten-Stoss
Bernina
Bière-Marchairuz
Marchairuz
Butigny
Chernignon-Crans
Lars-Crans
Sierre Montana-Crans
Sierre-Montana
Develiers-Les-Rangiers
St Ursanne-Les Rangiers
Dübendorf
Eigenthal
Gometz-le-Châtel
Grand Sacconex
Gurnigel
Jaunpass
Klausen
Klosters-Davos
Le Landeron-Lignières
Lodrino
Macon-Salutre
Maloja
Martigny-La Forclaz
Mitholz-Kandersteg
Mitholz-Kastenberg
Mont Ceneri
Montreux-Caux
Ollon-Villars
Orvin
Payerne
Reineck-Walzenhausen
Reineck-Walzenhausen-Lachen
Rochefort
Rochefort la Tourne
Saunaz
Steckborn-Eichülzli
Tiefenkastel-Lanzerheide
Turckheim-Trois Epis
Urcy
Vaduz-Triesenberg
Verbois
Vuillafans-Echevandes (or Echevannes)
Vue des Alpes
Zugerberg

The next four were usually dominated by Swiss competitors, but may be across the border in another country
Stilfser Joch ?
Val de Cuech?
La Faucille?
Mont Revard ?

I suspect the Fribourg one occasionally sees mention of might be a confusion with Freiburg-Schauinsland, just across the border in Germany, and from time to time host of the Swiss Mountain Championship

[Hans Etzrodt]

David,
Here are the dates of some of these early races. My incomplete list of Mountain Climb Winners 1897-1949 is still under construction for several years now, whereas my Grand Prix Winners 1895-1949 list will be published pretty soon.

• The first Aosta-Gran San Bernardo race on 28 August 1920 was won by Caberto Conelli on a Fast.
• The Bernina Races at St. Moritz were probably held only from 1929 to 1931 according to my incomplete records. Bergkönig Hans Stuck on Austro Daimler won there on 25 August 1929.
• Develiers-Les-Rangiers The first race on 16 May 1926 was won by Fleury.
• Kriens-Eigental on 3 June 1928, won by Hans Stuck on Austro Daimler, was probably the first race at this venue.
• Grand Sacconex on 8 March 1931, won by Hans Stuber on Bugatti, was probably the first race on this venue.
• Gurnigel on 21 August 1910, won by Edmond von Ernst on a Martini was the first of many races up this mountain.
• Jaunpass in 1912, won by Maurice Goetz driving a Pic-Pic, was the first race up the pass.
• The first Klausenrennen on 27 August 1922 was won by Josef Nieth on a Hispano-Suiza.
• Maloja Pass Race on 25 September 1938, won by Hans Stuck driving the Auto Union, was probably the first race at this venue.
• Mont Ceneri on 24 September 1933, won by Carlo Felice Trossi on Alfa Romeo Type B/P3, was probably the first race at that venue.
• Montreux-Caux on 30 September 1934, won by Paul Pietsch on a 2.6-liter Alfa Romeo Monza, was probably the first race at this venue.
• Reineck-Walzenhausen-Lachen This race was the same as Rheineck-Walzenhausen, 6.500 km in length. The first of these events on 17 July 1910 was won by G. Borgeaud on a Cottin-Desgouttes. As far as I know this was the first Mountain Climb Race in Switzerland where racing cars participated.
• Vue des Alpes on 11 June 1939, won by B. Blancpain on a 1.5 4CL Maserati, was probably the first race at this venue.
• Zugerberg on 8 July 1928 was won by Hans Stuck on Austro Daimler and was probably the first race at this venue.
• Stilfser Joch ? The first race up the Stelvio from Merano on the Italian side took place on 28 August 1932 and was won by Mario Tadini driving a 2.3-liter Alfa Romeo Monza. As far as I know, the Swiss never held a race on their side up the mountain.

I should have more detailed information about many Swiss events coming up next year since I just returned from my research trip to Bern and München.

[David McKinney]

If I knew how to operate the 'smiley' for blushing I'd use it now - I should have realised that Stilfser Joch was the same thing as the Stelvio
Thanks for posting such a fascinating list - I'll no doubt have comments or questions after I take the time to look at it more thoroughly

[fines]

Originally posted by David McKinney
I suspect the Fribourg one occasionally sees mention of might be a confusion with Freiburg-Schauinsland, just across the border in Germany, and from time to time host of the Swiss Mountain Championship

With so many hills (not to mention the mountains!) in their own country the Swiss certainly did not need to go to Germany for a championship round! There's a Fribourg in Switzerland as well, but I don't know if they do have hill-climbs there, not being an expert on hill-climbs at all.

BTW, welcome back Hans! How's your trip? Did you enjoy our cold, cold winter?

[David McKinney]

Yes, Fines,I know about Fribourg in Switzerland. Why, I seem to remember it was even the hometown of a quite famous racing-driver...
But the Swiss did pop over the border to Freiburg-Schauinsland for their mountain championship some years (as well as racing at Hockenheim, Dijon etc)

[David McKinney]

Hans:
Additional dates in my records, many of them not specific, include:
•Butigny 1 June 1919, won by Meynet (Hispano-Suiza). This appears to have been the first postwar motorsport event anywhere in Europe
•Albis 1921, no other details known
•I have the first Zugerberg event in September 1924, won by a Fiat (probably Mario Lepori’s)
•1928 Bernina, date unknown, won by Stuck (Austro-Daimler)
•You can also add Chamonix August 1928, won by Caracciola (Mercedes) and Gometz-le-Châtel October 1933, Hans Rüesch (Maserati 8CM)
I would consider Aosta-Gran San Bernardo, like Stelvio, to be Italian rather than Swiss
Pre-dating all these events of course was the Eaumorte kilometre sprint, first held at Geneva in 1903.
BTW, I’m pretty sure Bernard Blancpein’s Maserati (1939 Vue des Alpes) was an old 4CM-1500, not a 4CL

[fines]

Sorry David, I did not want to teach you!

Still I think that's amazing! Hockenheim and Dijon are frequently used in the aftermath of 1955, of course, but Schauinsland? Can you tell me when?

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by David McKinney
I’m pretty sure Bernard Blancpein’s Maserati (1939 Vue des Alpes) was an old 4CM-1500, not a 4CL

I saw a picture of the car in the magazine for a few seconds only and therefore will not contest this one at all. Also I don't have my photo copies from Switzerland yet to do a comparison.

[Hans Etzrodt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by David McKinney
Hans: Additional dates in my records, many of them not specific, include:•Butigny 1 June 1919, won by Meynet (Hispano-Suiza). This appears ....
Thank you, I made a note of these races you mentioned. The Aosta-Gran San Bernardo race took place in Italy, of course. Thanks for letting me know. I did not pay attention.

The 1921 Adliswil-Albis race was a 5.800 km long climb overcoming 339 m with ingredients of 5.84% to max. 8.6%. Winner was Ramseier from Geneva on a Pic-Pic. Date unknown. (Information from 1921 AUTOMOBIL-REVUE "L'année Sportive Automobile 1921", 1921, Nr.12 Seite 318.

[David McKinney]

I wonder if M Ramseier's son raced at Erlen in the 1940s? (see Erlen thread)

[David McKinney]

Looking at the last post or two, I wondered why my Freiburg-Schauinsland post was not there. Then I realised it was because I hadn't sent it....
The german venue was one of the last on the published list of 1962 Swiss championship rounds, and was definitely used for a round on 29 September 1963 (won by Heini Walter)

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by fines
...welcome back Hans! How's your trip? Did you enjoy our cold, cold winter?

It was never below freezing and I didn't need my mittens.;) But I really enjoy being back home again with normal weather. Went with my 6-year-old grandson to Waikiki Beach and had a grand time.

As soon as I receive my copies from Switzerland, I let you know about the 1945 Paris race.

[fines]

Yes David, you're right! I checked "Powerslide" (11/63) and found some details:

BTD - Heini Walter, Porsche RS, 9'05.8"
FLibre - Charles Vögele, Repco-Brabham_Climax IC, 9'07.8"
F1 - Walter Habegger, Cooper_Ford FJ, 9'13.3"
FJunior - Silvio Moser, Lotus_Ford, 9'35.6"
GT 1300 cc - Xavier Perrot, Abarth Simca, 9'44.3"
Jo Siffert, FJunior Repco-Brabham, spun
Tommy Spychiger, Fiat Abarth, DNA

BTW, the hill-climb was organised by the Basel section of the ACS, where they don't have any mountains.


Hans, for your convenience I approached some influential people in Germany, asking for special accommodation for an expatriate returning to the land of his ancestors, and they agreed on arranging for spring weather for the duration of your stay. Now the rest of us will have to suffer all the more, and since your return to Aloha there was a dramatic drop in temperature here, as of course now they will have to catch up with their 5 months weather plan!

[Ray Bell]

Talking with Hans Stuck the other day he said he is doing a new book to cover the combined careers of his father and himself. Sounds like he's giving up professional racing in two or three years time, then will reduce his involvement to running some series that merely contests long distance races at the Nordschleif nine or ten times a year.

[fines]

Hans-Joachim Stuck writing a book? Hmm, he's not the brightest bloke, hopefully he'll find a ghostwriter...

[Ray Bell]

I suppose I should have offered...

Reducing your racing life to nine or ten 3-hour-plus events a year at the Nordschleif would be terrible, too.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Ray,
You might have missed the greatest chance of your lifetime.

[Ray Bell]

I'm not dead yet... might try emailing him...
Got Quick Vic's email address, that's a start. And maybe his accent doesn't show up as badly on paper.