63 replies to this topic

[Mr j]

We have heard a lot of voices after the German GP about injustices but also by former and present drivers aswell as Bernie Ecclestone that team orders should be allowed. This topic is not about if team orders are right or wrong but instead if their should only be one championship in F1 namely the constructors championship.

I believe a lot fans relate to the sport by having favourite drivers, as I do myself, but wouldn't the sport be more fair if it was only about which team has the best car.

With only a constructors championship there wouldn't be talk about drivers winning titles becuase they have a superiour car and team orders would be something that is accepted.

Some might perhaps think that a series like this wouldn't attract the best drivers in the world but with the wages in F1 I don't think this would be a problem. We have a lot of other team sports where the individual performance is judged by your performance for the team and for the titles you bring to your team.

My question is, would you still find a motorsport series (F1) as interesting if it was only about which team is the best and without having to name a winning driver in the series.

Please tell us your pros and cons in a series like this.

[engel]

Drivers Championship is just too instilled into F1/Motorsport to be made to go away. Even if they abolished it people would still follow some form of a shadow championship.

Besides, take away the championship you take away the need for team orders, I just don't get what you mean by making team orders more acceptable this way.

[Atreiu]

I'd only have interest in such a series if the drivers were robots and remote controled.

[Ensign]

I believe a lot fans relate to the sport by having favourite drivers, as I do myself, but wouldn't the sport be more fair if it was only about which team has the best car.

With only a constructors championship there wouldn't be talk about drivers winning titles becuase they have a superiour car and team orders would be something that is accepted.

It won't happen as only a few petrolheads who post at forums like this really care much about the teams - with the exception of Ferrari in certain markets such as Italy. The money is in F1 because the masses watch it and they only care about the drivers. Fairness has little to do with it. We've seen it time and time again. The TV ratings - and they matter more than anything - skyrocket in a particular country when one of their own becomes big then collapse when he leaves the sport. The Spanish didn't care much about Ferrari before Alonso and they won't care after him.

Edited by Ensign, 27 July 2010 - 20:04.

[highdownforce]

Sponsorship, specially for smaller teams, would be the main problem.

Edit: A1GP was basically this, wasn't it?

Edited by highdownforce, 27 July 2010 - 20:06.

[Fastcake]

Bernie would not approve. Which essentially means it'll never happen, people (and me) generally watch F1 to see who is the greatest driver. The tech part is more in the background, much as I am interested in it.

[Mr j]

Drivers Championship is just too instilled into F1/Motorsport to be made to go away. Even if they abolished it people would still follow some form of a shadow championship.

Besides, take away the championship you take away the need for team orders, I just don't get what you mean by making team orders more acceptable this way.

Because it wouldn't affect the other drivers title chances since both drivers would be part of winning the title for the team no matter if they finish first and second or second and first.

Let's take football for instance, even if the team (Barcelona) would substitute Messi for let's say a "bench player" he would still be part of winning the title for the team and probably considered the best player in the world even if the team decided that some of the other players would be better for the team winning that particular game.

[Dunder]

In an ideal world I would like it.

It is not practical or viable however. There would be a decline in interest in the sport and consequently less income.

[Andy865]

Absolutely and unequivocally not. The drivers are what gives the show a soul. The teams nowadays are just big nasty corporate monsters.

BUT, that must be tempered with drivers who don't have a realistic chance of glory seceding to a team mate who does. And not doing it in a monumentally obvious and ****witted way.

The sport needs a drivers championship, although i always liked the drop scores system, as it removes things like breakdown and your silly little German team-mate into the side of you, and allows a proper comparison between the drivers within a team.

my 2 pence.

[Mr j]

In an ideal world I would like it.

It is not practical or viable however. There would be a decline in interest in the sport and consequently less income.

Would it really? But I agree, you make a good point!

[engel]

Because it wouldn't affect the other drivers title chances since both drivers would be part of winning the title for the team no matter if they finish first and second or second and first.

Let's take football for instance, even if the team (Barcelona) would substitute Messi for let's say a "bench player" he would still be part of winning the title for the team and probably considered the best player in the world even if the team decided that some of the other players would be better for the team winning that particular game.

Yeah but like I said, remove the drivers championship and you remove the need for team orders too. Makes no difference to the team if Alonso wins or Massa wins, points are the same,so there would just be one standing order, never race each other, whoever's ahead stays ahead.

[Mr j]

Yeah but like I said, remove the drivers championship and you remove the need for team orders too. Makes no difference to the team if Alonso wins or Massa wins, points are the same,so there would just be one standing order, never race each other, whoever's ahead stays ahead.

Isn't that what it's like today? Some teams might say "Fernando is faster than you..." and others teams might say "save petrol..." but what would be the difference?

[YellowHelmet]

to answer the tread question:

NO
it is WCC and WDC and a team should try to win both!

[Dunder]

Would it really? But I agree, you make a good point!

I believe so, yes.
Many fans/fanboys have no interest in the teams (or the current WCC), only in the drivers.
I doubt that this type of viewer would have much enthusiasm for only a Constructors Championship.

On the plus side, it would rid this board of 90+% of the "Alonso is great, Hamilton sucks" and "Hamilton rules, Vettel is a douche" threads!

[ensign14]

Absolutely and unequivocally not. The drivers are what gives the show a soul. The teams nowadays are just big nasty corporate monsters.

That's as maybe, but why bother with a drivers' championship? We cannot tell who the best driver is from an F1 race because of the car combinations. We can tell who the best car/driver/engine/whatever combination is for any given race, because they win it.

I mean, if we did a poll right now who the best F1 driver is, we would get a fairly wide-open poll, with Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel probably garnering 75% of the votes between them. Yet none of them is the world champion. So what's the point of having it? A teams' championship makes a lot more sense. Even better if, instead of giving it to the team that produces the most winners, it is given to the team that has the best SECOND car...that shows a real TEAM spirit rather than favouring one driver for obscure reasons.

[Mr j]

That's as maybe, but why bother with a drivers' championship? We cannot tell who the best driver is from an F1 race because of the car combinations. We can tell who the best car/driver/engine/whatever combination is for any given race, because they win it.

I mean, if we did a poll right now who the best F1 driver is, we would get a fairly wide-open poll, with Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel probably garnering 75% of the votes between them. Yet none of them is the world champion. So what's the point of having it? A teams' championship makes a lot more sense. Even better if, instead of giving it to the team that produces the most winners, it is given to the team that has the best SECOND car...that shows a real TEAM spirit rather than favouring one driver for obscure reasons.

That's an idea, perhaps not a popular one but still a really good idea, I think.

[PayasYouRace]

Of course, it wouldn't stop all the unofficial drivers championships from springing up. Fan's everywhere will be doing it. This forum would be filled with "WDC with x points system" threads.

[F1EC]

I think abandoning the WDC is the only way to go if the sport is to recover any integrity. Unless there is a ban on team orders, and that ban is effectively policed, the WDC means nothing. And, sadly, over the past few days there have been a) many public calls for the ban to be lifted and b) many posts from people saying if it isn't, it can't be policed.

You can't have it both ways. You can't have a WDC where everyone nods and winks and says, well, we know the drivers didn't actually earn the points themselves through merit. And yet at the same time they still worship the driver who wins.

What is the point of a WDC if someone like Alonso wins it? After being waved past a driver who quite probably would have won the race, he's been artificially elevated into contention with the top drivers of the season. It makes the WDC title race absolutely meaningless. And, reading the posts here, other people seem to have felt the same way about other drivers in previous seasons. It's a complete farce.

I'm not convinced by the argument that things have always been done this way, and therefore that makes it acceptable. If that were the case we'd still have slavery, women wouldn't have the vote, and children would still be sweeping chimneys. Unless Ferrari receive a real punishment for their crime, and measures are taken to strictly enforce team orders in the future, then there can only be public faith in the constructors championship. The rest is window dressing for fools.

[F1EC]

Of course, it wouldn't stop all the unofficial drivers championships from springing up. Fan's everywhere will be doing it. This forum would be filled with "WDC with x points system" threads.

Yes. But this is just a forum . It isn't compulsory for real fans to read here. I imagine many don't ;)

[F1EC]

to answer the tread question:

NO
it is WCC and WDC and a team should try to win both!

why? because bernie says so?

[Nova]

The alternative is to make the WDC and WTC the same. One car teams.

[Mr j]

I think abandoning the WDC is the only way to go if the sport is to recover any integrity. Unless there is a ban on team orders, and that ban is effectively policed, the WDC means nothing. And, sadly, over the past few days there have been a) many public calls for the ban to be lifted and b) many posts from people saying if it isn't, it can't be policed.

You can't have it both ways. You can't have a WDC where everyone nods and winks and says, well, we know the drivers didn't actually earn the points themselves through merit. And yet at the same time they still worship the driver who wins.

What is the point of a WDC if someone like Alonso wins it? After being waved past a driver who quite probably would have won the race, he's been artificially elevated into contention with the top drivers of the season. It makes the WDC title race absolutely meaningless. And, reading the posts here, other people seem to have felt the same way about other drivers in previous seasons. It's a complete farce.

I'm not convinced by the argument that things have always been done this way, and therefore that makes it acceptable. If that were the case we'd still have slavery, women wouldn't have the vote, and children would still be sweeping chimneys. Unless Ferrari receive a real punishment for their crime, and measures are taken to strictly enforce team orders in the future, then there can only be public faith in the constructors championship. The rest is window dressing for fools.

Wow, a voice of reason, it's not every day we hear that but it's truly refreshing.

[highdownforce]

Instead of a bigger change, how about this alternative: awarding the numbers #1 and #2 to the WCC winner?
Would it help?

[ForeverF1]

That's as maybe, but why bother with a drivers' championship? We cannot tell who the best driver is from an F1 race because of the car combinations. We can tell who the best car/driver/engine/whatever combination is for any given race, because they win it.

I mean, if we did a poll right now who the best F1 driver is, we would get a fairly wide-open poll, with Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel probably garnering 75% of the votes between them. Yet none of them is the world champion. So what's the point of having it? A teams' championship makes a lot more sense. Even better if, instead of giving it to the team that produces the most winners, it is given to the team that has the best SECOND car...that shows a real TEAM spirit rather than favouring one driver for obscure reasons.

In another thread, I posted my thoughts on a similar theme.

[F1EC]

In another thread, I posted my thoughts on a similar theme.

Yes. Both = good posts

Edited by F1EC, 27 July 2010 - 21:47.

[rijole1]

Yeah but like I said, remove the drivers championship and you remove the need for team orders too. Makes no difference to the team if Alonso wins or Massa wins, points are the same,so there would just be one standing order, never race each other, whoever's ahead stays ahead.

Exactly - problem solved with the teamorder business.

You can´t have teamorders and have serious drivers competition at the same time.

In that case it should be beforehand decided that every team has only one driver who's competing for the championship - the other one is clearly hired as a supporting driver whos not collecting any WDC points, only points for the constructors championship.

- if Formula 1 is turning only to be a constructors championship - I'm gonna loose my interest after a while
- I'm interested in F1 because of the great drivers and follow with exitement who's gonna win the next race
- not which team is gonna win...
but maybe there are enough fans who are interested in following only teams - who knows...

[Tenmantaylor]

Let's get something straight: F1 is an individual sport. Look at the long list of selfish egotistical maniacs that have triumphed at it. The problem occurs when teams value the WDC as much as their chosen ego does. The teams should have no involvement in the result of the WDC but the fact is the WDC is worth so much more than the WCC.

Instead of a bigger change, how about this alternative: awarding the numbers #1 and #2 to the WCC winner?
Would it help?

Who gets the no.1?;) Or put 1.5 on both of them?

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 27 July 2010 - 22:08.

[highdownforce]

Who gets the no.1?;) Or put 1.5 on both of them?

Team decides.

Edit: The thing is, there's no need for a #1 and #2 driver police.

Edit 2: We could always keep the record of the season top scorer.

Edited by highdownforce, 27 July 2010 - 22:14.

[Nitropower]

No way. Don't you wonder why people remember WDCs more than WCCs ?

Motor racing can be about teams but it definitely is about individuals.

[Tenmantaylor]

I'd go as far to say if Ferrari could secure the the WDC for Alonso this year at the expense of the WCC I'm sure they'd do it in a second. I can't think of a circumstance where this could be possible but it would certainly make LDM's current assertion 'that no individual is bigger than the team' bile become the ultimate irony in the wagon wheel that is the Ferrari team orders debacle. 8 years and still rolling on.

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 27 July 2010 - 22:24.

[alfa1]

...but the fact is the WDC is worth so much more than the WCC.

Thats true only in terms of newspaper and TV coverage, together with the popularity of the sport.
But the number of $$$dollars$$$ the teams get from their success, according to the Concorde Agreement, is directly related to the WDC points.

[robefc]

I think abandoning the WDC is the only way to go if the sport is to recover any integrity. Unless there is a ban on team orders, and that ban is effectively policed, the WDC means nothing. And, sadly, over the past few days there have been a) many public calls for the ban to be lifted and b) many posts from people saying if it isn't, it can't be policed.

You can't have it both ways. You can't have a WDC where everyone nods and winks and says, well, we know the drivers didn't actually earn the points themselves through merit. And yet at the same time they still worship the driver who wins.

What is the point of a WDC if someone like Alonso wins it? After being waved past a driver who quite probably would have won the race, he's been artificially elevated into contention with the top drivers of the season. It makes the WDC title race absolutely meaningless. And, reading the posts here, other people seem to have felt the same way about other drivers in previous seasons. It's a complete farce.

I'm not convinced by the argument that things have always been done this way, and therefore that makes it acceptable. If that were the case we'd still have slavery, women wouldn't have the vote, and children would still be sweeping chimneys. Unless Ferrari receive a real punishment for their crime, and measures are taken to strictly enforce team orders in the future, then there can only be public faith in the constructors championship. The rest is window dressing for fools.

I think if you abandon the WDC you will find that the majority of the fans abandon the sport.

This is the paradox the sport faces - it's a team sport and whoever wins the WDC is likely to have the best/equal best car and a good strategy/pit team, it's not just down to the driver. However, I'd say 90% of fans watch to see which drivers win the races/WDC, not the teams.

So there's an uneasy balance with things like team orders, where they're necessary for the teams and accepted by the fans as long as they're not blatant.

The other way to remove the conflict is to have one car teams but that's not a practical possiblity.

[Rob G]

Sports car racing is primarily about constructors. F1 should be primarily about drivers.

[hotstickyslick]

Sports car racing is primarily about constructors. F1 should be primarily about drivers.

I agree, let's kick Ferrari and McLaren out and get Dallara or Lola to supply a single chassis so every driver is in equal machinery! Sounds interesting but the diversity of the cars is one of the things that make F1 what it is.

[Rob G]

I agree, let's kick Ferrari and McLaren out and get Dallara or Lola to supply a single chassis so every driver is in equal machinery! Sounds interesting but the diversity of the cars is one of the things that make F1 what it is.

I said "primarily", not "exclusively." You don't also think I'm suggesting that sports car teams should replace all their drivers with nameless automatons, do you?

[bourbon]

Meh, it has been the same for years and years. Just leave it. WDC, WCC, are both very necessary to the race scenario. It cannot be mainly about the drivers - or there will ultimately be nobody to pay them.

[ensign14]

I think if you abandon the WDC you will find that the majority of the fans abandon the sport.

In which case they are not fans, but accountants.

[Jazza]

I don't think having only a team sport would kill F1 at all.

Most sports are team sports anyway, yet fans still have their favorite players who they support. I think it also underestimates the huge fan base of teams like Ferrari and McLaren which span beyond any one driver.

What it would do is get rid of 'just there to drive the 2nd car' rubbish that some teams work to. It may even become very competitive to keep a seat. Few bad races compared to your team mate and the 3rd driver may replace you.

At the very least it would get rid of this double championship model that the sport works to now. Two teams winning a title each always seemed a bit silly, as both claim victory and it doesn't really reflect the true performance of the teams.

[F1EC]

Meh, it has been the same for years and years. Just leave it.

A prime example of the type of thinking I referred to in my earlier post. Some people cannot contemplate change, even if the current system is broken. And yet, technically, this is a progressive sport. You'd think the fans would be progressive thinkers too.

Edited by F1EC, 28 July 2010 - 08:52.

[Murphster]

I agree, let's kick Ferrari and McLaren out and get Dallara or Lola to supply a single chassis so every driver is in equal machinery! Sounds interesting but the diversity of the cars is one of the things that make F1 what it is.

I am a fan of F1 for both the drivers and the teams, I am a fan of MaClaren, always have been, and love the fact that each team can design and improve their cards individually - It brings a whole different dimension to the sport that at times is fascinating.

But, if there had to be a choice I would have to vote for this. I would love to see an F1 season where all drivers race the same machines. It would be fantastic to watch and far more a thrilling spectacle than it is now.

What I would like to see is a 20 race series (some tracks could even be used twice), the first 10 races a constructers championship, effectively a shorter version of what we have now, then a after a two month break the winning constructers car would be used by all drivers in a 10 race drivers championship.

There might be some legs to that idea.

Edited by Murphster, 28 July 2010 - 07:10.

[Big Block 8]

The answer is very easy - the drivers should be rotated and in turn be let driven all cars during one season. This way the best overall driver would win and the best team would win and both WDC and WCC made more sense.

The current system in which they build cars around one driver for a whole season is stupid - you know neither which is the best car nor who is the best driver. This system is merely a relic from the bad old days and should simply be removed.

Edited by Big Block 8, 28 July 2010 - 07:21.

[PayasYouRace]

Yes. But this is just a forum . It isn't compulsory for real fans to read here. I imagine many don't ;)

Obviously.

It wouldn't just be on this forum. The entire racing world would still count up all the points scored by each driver and consider him the WDC, even if it is unofficial.

---------

Quite honestly. The mindset of some fans is quite difficult to fathom. An understanding of the sport is crucial before you criticise it. The system is not broken and never was. Champions from Fangio to Andretti and others had the support of their teammates in the championship fight. Sometimes it came accross poorly, but usually it was obvious why the tactic was employed. F1 has a unique "formula" in world sport where the individual and the team each have a goal to fight for. Removing the WDC would simply lessen the interest of the sport.

Edit: Changed to be a fairer reflection of my thoughts.

Edited by PayasYouRace, 28 July 2010 - 09:36.

[robefc]

In which case they are not fans, but accountants.

Erm, what?

[robefc]

I don't think having only a team sport would kill F1 at all.

Most sports are team sports anyway, yet fans still have their favorite players who they support. I think it also underestimates the huge fan base of teams like Ferrari and McLaren which span beyond any one driver.

What it would do is get rid of 'just there to drive the 2nd car' rubbish that some teams work to. It may even become very competitive to keep a seat. Few bad races compared to your team mate and the 3rd driver may replace you.

At the very least it would get rid of this double championship model that the sport works to now. Two teams winning a title each always seemed a bit silly, as both claim victory and it doesn't really reflect the true performance of the teams.

But a game like football for example is intrinsically a team sport in a way that individuals driving cars isn't.

[RobH]

The vast majority of people who watch F1 (especially casual watchers) only take interest in the drivers championship and who the world champion will be.

So no.

[MPea3]

So let me get this straight... some of you think that by making F1 purely a team sport the need for team orders would be eliminated?

[ensign14]

Erm, what?

They're not interested in the racing as racing. They're interested in the racing as a medium for adding up things.

[F1EC]

So let me get this straight... some of you think that by making F1 purely a team sport the need for team orders would be eliminated?

I don't think that's what is being said at all. Not from my reading of all the posts so far, anyway.

[kismet]

Well, we could always get rid of both WDC and WCC and just have individual races. Prestige and prize money are good incentives even if there's no championship trophy to be fought for. It's a nice tradition and offers a historical framework that can be handy but we don't actually really need a season-long bookkeeping exercise to determine who's good and who's not.

[Jimisgod]

For many years, until 1979, the constructors championship only counted the highest placed car of each constructor in the race.

Edited by Jimisgod, 28 July 2010 - 14:07.