6415 replies to this topic

[boldhakka]

I personally am convinced that the car is being developed around Vette's style. But I don't understand why Mark can't come out and say it. Before we expect Horner and the other team members to say it, Webber has to come out and say it first.

Because, as far as Horner and co. are concerned, it's useful for the rest of the world to think Vettel really has that much of a talent advantage over Webber - it's much more marketable. If anyone's gonna come out and say that no, it's not all Vettel's talent that's the difference, it's the car being developed to his style, then it has to be Mark himself.

[AirWebber]

F1 is no black magic.

Webber can copy all Vettel set-ups and make the same driving movements [steer and pedals] and clock the same time.

[DILLIGAF]

I personally am convinced that the car is being developed around Vette's style. But I don't understand why Mark can't come out and say it. Before we expect Horner and the other team members to say it, Webber has to come out and say it first.

Because, as far as Horner and co. are concerned, it's useful for the rest of the world to think Vettel really has that much of a talent advantage over Webber - it's much more marketable. If anyone's gonna come out and say that no, it's not all Vettel's talent that's the difference, it's the car being developed to his style, then it has to be Mark himself.

But if he ever did come out & say it, his knockers would simply say he's making excuses for being beaten. Mark knows the deal & RBR has made it clear that team/car will being built around Seb. Seb is the future, unfortunately Mark is not, end of story.

[Bunchies]

F1 is no black magic.

Webber can copy all Vettel set-ups and make the same driving movements [steer and pedals] and clock the same time.

Perhaps Vettel just has that slight edge in qualifying. We've seen many occasions where Seb was unable to find a good setup and used Mark's instead, then put the car on pole.

[krapmeister]

Sanjiro, I don't believe that anyone really hates anyone in here, but you cannot disregard last two years and a few races, when Webber went all the way out on a PR campain to improve his position within a team, and he played that hand through media. Marco was turned in an animal, Horner into idiot and liar, Vettel was getting too much attention, etc. I do not dislike Webber per se, but I really took dislike in all of this. As an example there was some pre-incident communication in Turkey that he could, but choose not to clarify for rest of us, there was incident in Silverstone which he could, but choose not to clarify, and instead played an injured party. As an Australian, you might not be sensitive to it, but I did not like it, and I went from indiferent to minor dislike of him, as I was expecting straight talk as his friends were so proud off, and we have never received.

Pretty sure the Turkey incident has been clarified for some time now - iirc:
- Webber was told to turn down his engine to save fuel
- Vettel was told that he could turn up his engine for one lap because he had saved some fuel
- Ciaron Pilbeam (Webber's engineer) did not relay the message to Mark to let Seb by

After the race Webber told reporters to 'dig deeper' - which is what I think you are referring to - and the above is what came out later on. Also I believe the RBR radio protocol was changed to ensure that all messages from Horner are delivered to the drivers.

As for Silverstone, I am not sure what you think Webber didn't clarify - in both incidents (wing and team orders) he was pretty clear afaik.

And with regards to his campaign through the press, perhaps he had tried all he could already within the team and if he felt he wasn't getting any support that the press was his last resort? Considering it was possibly his one shot at a WDC it was a high risk policy that in the end didn't work out, but I assume it was a risk he felt was worth taking...

[i.am.cloned]

And with regards to his campaign through the press, perhaps he had tried all he could already within the team and if he felt he wasn't getting any support that the press was his last resort? Considering it was possibly his one shot at a WDC it was a high risk policy that in the end didn't work out, but I assume it was a risk he felt was worth taking...

IMHO alienating your own team never works as a title winning strategy. It could only serve as a selling himself to another team strategy and even then it's a risky move as nobody likes whiners and troublemakers all that much.

To me it looked like he was just pissed off he wasn't getting number one treatment he thought he deserved at that point and that he needed to win the title. He lost me then. Always liked him a lot. Up to that drama queen act last year. Still would have been glad if he became a champion but wasn't all that upset when he didn't.

[Clatter]

Realisitically how much help can Vettel give Webber?
As far as I know at Redbull the drivers share information etc. and the car isn't developed for one driver not the other. So there shouldn't be anything to gain by Vettel being more open with his information or the car being developed for Mark.
They could swap positions on track if Vettel was one place ahead, but so far this year that hasn't really happened, Webber has usually been several places behind.
If Vettel was on for a grand chelum with Webber in 2nd I can't see Vettel letting Webber past personally.
If there Vettel was two places ahead of Webber, would he slow down to back the driver in the middle into Webber?
Even though Vettel has said he'll help I think that's PR. He might help given certain circumstances but he's not going to be racing for Mark.

As an aside I was looking at the Grand Chelems list and it surprised me. Alonso has only got 1 and that was Singapore 2010. Prost doesn't have any but Gerhard Berger got 1 in 1987. The Grand Chelem does seem to be incredibly hard to achieve.

If it counted for points I'm sure the list would be longer. As hard as it maybe to achieve it's also a meaningless statistic as far as championships go.

[Sakae]

Pretty sure the Turkey incident has been clarified for some time now - iirc:
- Webber was told to turn down his engine to save fuel
- Vettel was told that he could turn up his engine for one lap because he had saved some fuel
- Ciaron Pilbeam (Webber's engineer) did not relay the message to Mark to let Seb by

After the race Webber told reporters to 'dig deeper' - which is what I think you are referring to - and the above is what came out later on. Also I believe the RBR radio protocol was changed to ensure that all messages from Horner are delivered to the drivers.

As for Silverstone, I am not sure what you think Webber didn't clarify - in both incidents (wing and team orders) he was pretty clear afaik.

And with regards to his campaign through the press, perhaps he had tried all he could already within the team and if he felt he wasn't getting any support that the press was his last resort? Considering it was possibly his one shot at a WDC it was a high risk policy that in the end didn't work out, but I assume it was a risk he felt was worth taking...

I think it was too little, too late. Damage was done. He should have put down all madness right after race, or next day. My recollection is that he let public to fry Vettel, Marco and Horner alike. In retrospect it was not a such good idea. He could go, see Horner privately behind closed tood to clean up his objections, and if he didn't succeed, he should retire, instead signing another contract. Money before straight spine does little for me. In Silverstone he actually did not want spare wing, yet he did not stop media to speculate to the contrary. Today I do not care how he does, but I still believe Vettel should help him if (a) opportunity is there, and (b) RBR management will ask him to do so (or he feels they expect it).

Edited by Sakae, 23 October 2011 - 23:55.

[DILLIGAF]

I think it was too little, too late. Damage was done. He should have put down all madness right after race, or next day. My recollection is that he let public to fry Vettel, Marco and Horner alike. In retrospect it was not a such good idea. He could go, see Horner privately behind closed tood to clean up his objections, and if he didn't succeed, he should retire, instead signing another contract. Money before straight spine does little for me. In Silverstone he actually did not want spare wing, yet he did not stop media to speculate to the contrary. Today I do not care how he does, but I still believe Vettel should help him if (a) opportunity is there, and (b) RBR management will ask him to do so (or he feels they expect it).

Here we go again!! Show me a statement where Mark said he didn't want the wing? Show me a statement where Mark said the new wing wasn't an improvement? All that RBR put out was that Seb was more enthusiastic about the new one than Mark was. (I think "a greater preference for the wing" were Horner's words) Nothing was said by Webber. And it wasn't a spare wing by the way, it'd been bolted on to Mark's car right up until qualifying. If he didn't like or want it, why would he have had it on the car in the first place? Because he knew it was an improvement, that's why.

Please don't re-write history Sakae.

Edited by DILLIGAF, 24 October 2011 - 00:29.

[karne]

I think it was too little, too late. Damage was done. He should have put down all madness right after race, or next day. My recollection is that he let public to fry Vettel, Marco and Horner alike. In retrospect it was not a such good idea. He could go, see Horner privately behind closed tood to clean up his objections, and if he didn't succeed, he should retire, instead signing another contract. Money before straight spine does little for me. In Silverstone he actually did not want spare wing, yet he did not stop media to speculate to the contrary. Today I do not care how he does, but I still believe Vettel should help him if (a) opportunity is there, and (b) RBR management will ask him to do so (or he feels they expect it).

Vettel, Horner and Marko DESERVED to be fried! Vettel refused to take responsibility for his actions and Horner and Marko proved they were totally one-eyed because of their view on a crash that blind, dumb, stupid Freddy could see was Vettel's fault. Horner, Marko and Vettel deserved every single bit of vitriol aimed at them after Turkey and at Silverstone.

(And lol at the traditional haters' line of "he didn't want the wing"...Yes he did, stop lying. Go read his book.)

Horner deserved to be absolutely trashed in the media for what he did at Silverstone. I don't care what the circumstances are, you DO NOT physically remove a part of one driver's car to give to the other. YOU DO NOT DO THAT. Appalling.

Here we go again!! Show me a statement where Mark said he didn't want the wing? Show me a statement where Mark said the new wing wasn't an improvement? All that RBR put out was that Seb was more enthusiastic about the new one than Mark was. Nothing was said by Webber. And it wasn't a spare wing by the way, it'd been bolted on to Mark's car right up until qualifying. If he didn't like or want it, he wouldn't have had it on the car in the first place.

Please don't re-write history Sakae.

Unfortunately, the haters will continue to re-write history for the rest of Mark's career - because they can't accept that Mark was genuinely better than Vettel last year, and that he's not a slowpoke, willing number 2.

[krapmeister]

I think it was too little, too late. Damage was done. He should have put down all madness right after race, or next day. My recollection is that he let public to fry Vettel, Marco and Horner alike. In retrospect it was not a such good idea. He could go, see Horner privately behind closed tood to clean up his objections, and if he didn't succeed, he should retire, instead signing another contract. Money before straight spine does little for me. In Silverstone he actually did not want spare wing, yet he did not stop media to speculate to the contrary. Today I do not care how he does, but I still believe Vettel should help him if (a) opportunity is there, and (b) RBR management will ask him to do so (or he feels they expect it).

In hindsight I agree it probably wasn't the best course to take - but if he already felt isolated/alienated in the team (note: not with his side of the garage but with management) and felt he had no response to any lobbying for support he had done within the team, then he may have felt that he had nothing to lose with going to the press in his fight to get the best possible chance at the WDC. Like I said, it was high risk and if it worked he probably would've been WDC but it didn't and in the end he wasn't.

[HP]

In hindsight I agree it probably wasn't the best course to take - but if he already felt isolated/alienated in the team (note: not with his side of the garage but with management) and felt he had no response to any lobbying for support he had done within the team, then he may have felt that he had nothing to lose with going to the press in his fight to get the best possible chance at the WDC. Like I said, it was high risk and if it worked he probably would've been WDC but it didn't and in the end he wasn't.

How many drivers won a championship in F1 while alienating their team? Even if the criticism from their side seemed to be justified? Even WDC's like Prost and Alonso didn't manage to do that. F1 is these days is too complex of a sport and you need everybody's support from within the team to succeed. If you don't get that, bitch as much you want but also move to another team. That he continues with RBR is not good for his case, unless they completely reconciled. Looking at this thread however it looks that the poison of mistrust seems still to be there. That's not going anywhere. Success is based on people trusting each other.

[Supersleeper]

As an example there was some pre-incident communication in Turkey that he could, but choose not to clarify for rest of us.....

...and say what? "Ciaron was instructed to tell me to let Seb by, but I never got the message because he refused in principle to tell me?...which is why I got blamed by the wall - because they thought I got the message...but didn't?"

How's that going to do anything other than annoy people? ....again....

Silverstone was just a case of technical people being technical and forgetting about respect and decency.

[v@sh]

How many drivers won a championship in F1 while alienating their team? Even if the criticism from their side seemed to be justified? Even WDC's like Prost and Alonso didn't manage to do that. F1 is these days is too complex of a sport and you need everybody's support from within the team to succeed. If you don't get that, bitch as much you want but also move to another team. That he continues with RBR is not good for his case, unless they completely reconciled. Looking at this thread however it looks that the poison of mistrust seems still to be there. That's not going anywhere. Success is based on people trusting each other.

How many teams alienate their driver for another even before getting the chance at a WDC shot? It goes both ways buddy. Vettel was their golden boy way before the 2010 championship. As you said you need everybody's support from within the team - something Webber hasn't been getting ever since Vettel/Marko Helmut joined. Look at Turkey, 95% of the F1 paddock and fans agreed it wasn't Webber's fault and there is Marko/Horner spraying the opposite right after.

Another example, look at this season, Vettel has been backed by the team early on - rightly so given that Webber has had problems coming to terms with the Pirellis and Vettel has just been brilliant - but only now have they even bothered to think about helping Mark out to 2nd place in the WDC. It's just an afterthought. This team support which should have been given since the start of the season. Simple fact is that they have always wanted Vettel to succeed.

IMO the only thing keeping Webber there is a) his relationships that have built up during his Jag days b) a front running car regardless of how the team is supporting him c) hassle of having to re-build relationships and re-learn with another team

[sanjiro]

I find it interesting that many people claim MW was wrecking his relationship with RBR management when he let it spill over into the media after Turkey
Given that fact that this was the FIRST time in his many years of F1 that he had let fly like this to the press, It is more than possible the relationship was already trashed.

Very few drivers @#$% on the team they are in unless things have already fallen apart.
MW showed no signs of this even at Williams where things had become rather tense.

The bigger mystery is why he is still there and why he signed for 2012
(I still think HM will try to get rid of him before the end of 2012)
I have my own view on this, that no one else hear seams to share but so be it.

I suspect the last 3 races will be very telling.
If RBR dont give MW some serious help he will not take p2, so far with being ~0.4s slower than SV he has been down fighting with LH FA and JB so unless there is something RBR have NOT been doing for MW up till this point, there is bugger all they can do to help him now.
If MW suddenly shows the pace to run away from Ferrari and McLaren..then WHAT THE @#^$ HAVE RBR been doing to him all year?

Ahh fun times ahead

Edited by sanjiro, 24 October 2011 - 05:27.

[krapmeister]

...Ahh fun times ahead

Have your popcorn ready...

[H2H]

Pretty sure the Turkey incident has been clarified for some time now - iirc:
- Webber was told to turn down his engine to save fuel
- Vettel was told that he could turn up his engine for one lap because he had saved some fuel
- Ciaron Pilbeam (Webber's engineer) did not relay the message to Mark to let Seb by

After the race Webber told reporters to 'dig deeper' - which is what I think you are referring to - and the above is what came out later on. Also I believe the RBR radio protocol was changed to ensure that all messages from Horner are delivered to the drivers.

As for Silverstone, I am not sure what you think Webber didn't clarify - in both incidents (wing and team orders) he was pretty clear afaik.

And with regards to his campaign through the press, perhaps he had tried all he could already within the team and if he felt he wasn't getting any support that the press was his last resort? Considering it was possibly his one shot at a WDC it was a high risk policy that in the end didn't work out, but I assume it was a risk he felt was worth taking...

Edited by H2H, 24 October 2011 - 05:44.

[Zava]

Unfortunately, the haters will continue to re-write history for the rest of Mark's career - because they can't accept that Mark was genuinely better than Vettel last year, and that he's not a slowpoke, willing number 2.

sorry, I don't want to get into the debate about turkey/silverstone, but this part, WHAT?!?! care to elaborate why exactly was he better?

[V8 Fireworks]

F1 is no black magic.

Webber can copy all Vettel set-ups and make the same driving movements [steer and pedals] and clock the same time.

WRC is no black magic.
If Raikkonen will copy Loeb set-up and same driving movements [steer and pedals] he will clock the same stage time.*;)

Car set-up is by definition based on compromises. The car will do one thing better but you will sacrifice doing something else. Drivers naturally have different inputs and styles, it's easy to say "drive the same as your team-mate". Clearly it does not work - "please ride like this Rossi, the Duke is capable of winning, it won races last season, you are riding it wrong". Are you suggesting Webber has more relative talent than Rossi!!!?






* Actually Kimi will end up in a tree if he tries to do this...

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 24 October 2011 - 06:06.

[Nivra]

But if he ever did come out & say it, his knockers would simply say he's making excuses for being beaten. Mark knows the deal & RBR has made it clear that team/car will being built around Seb. Seb is the future, unfortunately Mark is not, end of story.

Not to forget possibly 3+ (Multiple) World Champion, unfortunately Mark is not.

Although it sounds ridiculous, Webber can't really say anything regarding the car through his own performances!! I mean c'mon, whats he going to sell to convince Adrian Newey & co that the car should be built around him & not Sebastian Vettel ?? Nobody is going to say he's making excuses, but I can imagine the whole paddock, media & fans having a chuckle.... I mean he hasn't done anything spectacular to Demand his preferences. Vettel has.

Sebastian Vettel's time of saying build a car around me and I'll win you Championships started in Monza 2008, driving a Torro Rosso.
Mark Webber's time of saying build a car around me and I'll win you championships passed away in Korea 2010.

Edited by Nivra, 24 October 2011 - 07:05.

[HP]

How many teams alienate their driver for another even before getting the chance at a WDC shot? It goes both ways buddy. Vettel was their golden boy way before the 2010 championship. As you said you need everybody's support from within the team - something Webber hasn't been getting ever since Vettel/Marko Helmut joined. Look at Turkey, 95% of the F1 paddock and fans agreed it wasn't Webber's fault and there is Marko/Horner spraying the opposite right after.

Who's fault it was and why it is that the relationship started turning sour doesn't really matter. We are not talking some Kindergarten kids here that argue who's started it first. If Mark wanted to have better support and win a championship then he should be professional enough to not say anything that damages relationships from his side. Full stop.

All you can do at this point is to switch teams, or show that you are 100% behind the team and in time reap the rewards.

[LiJu914]

How many drivers won a championship in F1 while alienating their team? Even if the criticism from their side seemed to be justified? Even WDC's like Prost and Alonso didn't manage to do that.

OT:

Small correction: Prost did -> 89

Edited by LiJu914, 24 October 2011 - 10:10.

[boldhakka]

But if he ever did come out & say it, his knockers would simply say he's making excuses for being beaten. Mark knows the deal & RBR has made it clear that team/car will being built around Seb. Seb is the future, unfortunately Mark is not, end of story.

You could say the same thing about him mentioning the lack of emotional support from the team in 2010.

He wasn't shy about bringing that up, so why doesn't he mention the fact that the car is ideally developed for Seb but not him? *Shrug* I would say the car development direction should be far more relevant to him than the lack of emotional support that he did complain about ...

It just seems inconsistent, that's all. I, like you, am fully convinced it's all about Seb at RBR.

Edited by boldhakka, 24 October 2011 - 10:29.

[sanjiro]

You could say the same thing about him mentioning the lack of emotional support from the team in 2010.

He wasn't shy about bringing that up, so why doesn't he mention the fact that the car is ideally developed for Seb but not him? *Shrug* I would say the car development direction should be far more relevant to him than the lack of emotional support that he did complain about ...

There was no reason for him to talk about something that both HM and CH had made very clear.
HM made it clear in winter testing 2008-2009
CH made it clear during 2009-2010 winter testing.

Everyone knew this to be the case so there was no point in MW bringing it up.
If you think MW was happy with the situation then I suggest you give due consideration to his comments after the wing swap.

The posters on this forum who didnt and still dont think RBR are operating like this are the ones that think the Turkey crash was MWs fault and that WingGate was perfectly fair.

Edited by sanjiro, 24 October 2011 - 10:35.

[boldhakka]

There was no reason for him to talk about something that both HM and CH had made very clear.
HM made it clear in winter testing 2008-2009
CH made it clear during 2009-2010 winter testing.

Everyone knew this to be the case so there was no point in MW bringing it up.

The posters on this forum who didnt and still dont think RBR are operating like this are the ones that think the Turkey crash was MWs fault and that WingGate was perfectly fair

True.

I wish he would mention exactly where the difference in styles is. With Raikkonen in Ferrari, it was always the front suspension, throughout 2008, not just the three infamous races. it would be interesting to see what exactly is impacting Mark, though the answer may be complex and mixed with multiple elements I guess.

I do think that it was pretty strong of Webber to extract as much as he did out of the 2010 car, since it was clearly developed around Vettel's style (CH mentioned this), which also points to the possibility that they both have similar driving styles under certain regulations.

[DarthWillie]

I don't believe all this he doesn't have the same car nonsense. somehow everything Webber says is true, except when he himself says the tyres are the problem. Since about silverstone he is close or on the same speed as Vettel, just his qualifying is hurting him. Korea he got stuck behind Hamilton, otherwise he would have been at least second. Spa he was always on the backfoot after his start. With the field this close you just can't afford the smallest hickup. Look at Hamilton, race winning car, race winning driver, but not winning since germany. You have to get a weekend 100% right otherwise you won't win.

How many drivers won a championship in F1 while alienating their team? Even if the criticism from their side seemed to be justified? Even WDC's like Prost and Alonso didn't manage to do that. F1 is these days is too complex of a sport and you need everybody's support from within the team to succeed. If you don't get that, bitch as much you want but also move to another team. That he continues with RBR is not good for his case, unless they completely reconciled. Looking at this thread however it looks that the poison of mistrust seems still to be there. That's not going anywhere. Success is based on people trusting each other.

Prost 89, Mansell 92, Hill 96, Lauda 84, piquet 87 Agree with you, it doesn't help and doesn't improve your chance of winning.

Horner deserved to be absolutely trashed in the media for what he did at Silverstone. I don't care what the circumstances are, you DO NOT physically remove a part of one driver's car to give to the other. YOU DO NOT DO THAT. Appalling.

except it wasn't physically on his car, it was taken of after Vettel's one broke, because they didn't know if it was a structural fault. Only after they were sure it wasn't a design fault they put it on the other car. Not handled great but never ever the drama it was made out to be.

Unfortunately, the haters will continue to re-write history for the rest of Mark's career - because they can't accept that Mark was genuinely better than Vettel last year, and that he's not a slowpoke, willing number 2.

Now really? If Webber would have had the technical difficulties Vettel had last year (race ending ones) this thread would explode with conspiracy theories. He outraced Vettel a couple of times on merit, but over the whole year it wasn't enough to call it a better year.

[BCM]

OT:

Small correction: Prost did -> 89

He didn't need McLaren. He had Balestre ;)

[Jordana]

Nothing, Vettel is not going to let Mark pass. The only help Mark will get is from the car, in case his car is not the same as Vettel.

Yeah, Seb drives the Red Bull and Mark drives the Red Bull Light...

[Watkins74]

sorry, I don't want to get into the debate about turkey/silverstone, but this part, WHAT?!?! care to elaborate why exactly was he better?

Because Karne thinks Webber is cute.

Edited by Watkins74, 24 October 2011 - 15:05.

[AirWebber]

Yeah, Seb drives the Red Bull and Mark drives the Red Bull Light...

Why are you defending Webber

Webber chopped Kimi's front wing at Interlagos and stole him the victory.

[v@sh]

Who's fault it was and why it is that the relationship started turning sour doesn't really matter. We are not talking some Kindergarten kids here that argue who's started it first. If Mark wanted to have better support and win a championship then he should be professional enough to not say anything that damages relationships from his side. Full stop.

All you can do at this point is to switch teams, or show that you are 100% behind the team and in time reap the rewards.

So you're saying that Webber should not say anything to damage the relationship and reap the rewards? Just like Barrichello and Massa when they said nothing about the team (Barrichello after he left Ferrari)...what rewards did they reap? Nothing but just a battering to their reputation and career.

Webber will still not receive the support to win the championship whichever way he went about it unless RBR had no other choice or felt it was the best choice at the time in the championship e.g. Monza in 2010. From the outset Vettel joined, IMO it has always been about Vettel suceeding and that's where more of the support will always be in winning the championship.

[V8 Fireworks]

the tyres are the problem.

This is true.

Please understand, the tyres, chassis (suspension) and driver work in combination.


Webber had the right tyre temp at Germany, he pressed on, pole position, maximum attack, nice balanced car with good grip, other teams had better race pace, but still nice and comfortable in the car. Yet Seb's tyres were too cold. You don't see the problem there? Do you think Perez will still go for 40 laps in a Mercedes? Schumacher for only 10 laps in a Sauber?


With only some small geometry tweaks it is possible to go from tyre eater to tyre perserver (see the Prodrive-run team in the australian v8 series). No major changes are needed. It is perfectly allowable to have different suspension geometry on each team car too by the FIA regulations, as well...;)


Webber will not win a WDC any time soon, but it is not reasonable not to maximise the team's WCC point haul by allocating a measly million or two to get some custom bits on the Webber car to help Webbo find 2-3 more tenths here and there. WCC points are worth much more than any small costs in customizing Webber's car IMO.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 25 October 2011 - 01:25.

[DILLIGAF]

This is true.

Please understand, the tyres, chassis (suspension) and driver work in combination.


Webber had the right tyre temp at Germany, he pressed on, pole position, maximum attack, nice balanced car with good grip, other teams had better race pace, but still nice and comfortable in the car. Yet Seb's tyres were too cold. You don't see the problem there? Do you think Perez will still go for 40 laps in a Mercedes? Schumacher for only 10 laps in a Sauber?


With only some small geometry tweaks it is possible to go from tyre eater to tyre perserver (see the Prodrive-run team in the australian v8 series). No major changes are needed. It is perfectly allowable to have different suspension geometry on each team car too by the FIA regulations, as well...;)


Webber will not win a WDC any time soon, but it is not reasonable not to maximise the team's WCC point haul by allocating a measly million or two to get some custom bits on the Webber car to help Webbo find 2-3 more tenths here and there. WCC points are worth much more than any small costs in customizing Webber's car IMO.

I was with you until the last paragraph confused me a bit V8. Not sure i understand what you're saying there mate. Is it that the team should spend the extra million or two to help Webber get a set-up that might find 2-3 tenths? Like using the brakes he prefers over the brakes the team decided to go with for example?

[sanjiro]

I was with you until the last paragraph confused me a bit V8. Not sure i understand what you're saying there mate. Is it that the team should spend the extra million or two to help Webber get a set-up that might find 2-3 tenths? Like using the brakes he prefers over the brakes the team decided to go with for example?

I suspect that was what he was saying.

I would have hoped for nothing less than the treatment JB got at McLaren.
Sadly it was not to be.

Lets hope who ever they put next to SV in the future gets a better deal.
However given the very good chance SV will have 3 WDC after 2012 I doubt his next team mate will get a better slice of the pie than MW got

Edited by sanjiro, 25 October 2011 - 03:00.

[Paul Prost]

Webber will not win a WDC any time soon, but it is not reasonable not to maximise the team's WCC point haul by allocating a measly million or two to get some custom bits on the Webber car to help Webbo find 2-3 more tenths here and there. WCC points are worth much more than any small costs in customizing Webber's car IMO.

But with Vettel being so brilliant in the RB7, and with Webber being so consistent (despite often not extracting the maximum performance from the car) they still cakewalked to the WCC anyway.

[sanjiro]

But with Vettel being so brilliant in the RB7, and with Webber being so consistent (despite often not extracting the maximum performance from the car) they still cakewalked to the WCC anyway.

RBR have no reason to do anything different than 2011
Expect 2012 to be the same (if they have the car advantage)

[Paul Prost]

RBR have no reason to do anything different than 2011
Expect 2012 to be the same (if they have the car advantage)

Hasn't Newey gone on the record many times that he doesn't want to drive two avenues of car development? That he only prefers to concentrate resources in a single direction?

From what I recall, didn't this actually help Webber in 2009 as Newey didn't want to run KERS in Vettel's car and no KERS in Webber? Even though Vettel could have potentially gone faster at some circuits in 2009 with KERS?

[Jaybools]

Hasn't Newey gone on the record many times that he doesn't want to drive two avenues of car development? That he only prefers to concentrate resources in a single direction?

From what I recall, didn't this actually help Webber in 2009 as Newey didn't want to run KERS in Vettel's car and no KERS in Webber? Even though Vettel could have potentially gone faster at some circuits in 2009 with KERS?

Not quite sure what your point is since KERS time reduction is pretty much constant across teammates... Wouldn't have really benefited one or the other.

The only reason it wasn't implemented was because it didn't suit the package, and Newey thought more time could be had by developing the aero more, than spending the same resources on KERS.

Edited by Jaybools, 25 October 2011 - 04:29.

[V8 Fireworks]

I was with you until the last paragraph confused me a bit V8. Not sure i understand what you're saying there mate. Is it that the team should spend the extra million or two to help Webber get a set-up that might find 2-3 tenths? Like using the brakes he prefers over the brakes the team decided to go with for example?

Exactly.

If Webber scores an extra 30 points over the season, they will bring far more revenue into the team from FOM than the small cost of slightly different suspension parts and engineering time.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 25 October 2011 - 04:43.

[Kelateboy]

RBR have no reason to do anything different than 2011
Expect 2012 to be the same (if they have the car advantage)

Agreed. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Philip Lee KK]

Agreed. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

id agree too. it's up to Mark to pull his socks up.

[Philip Lee KK]

Exactly.

If Webber scores an extra 30 points over the season, they will bring far more revenue into the team from FOM than the small cost of slightly different suspension parts and engineering time.

would they?? i thought FOM money is distributed by final WCC positions (plus many other complex criteria) so if u win by 1 point, u still get the appropriate share??!!

[sanjiro]

would they?? i thought FOM money is distributed by final WCC positions (plus many other complex criteria) so if u win by 1 point, u still get the appropriate share??!!

Last I looked (3 years ago) it was awarded by the race finishing position of your drivers.

Some time ago Hill put his Jordan on the podium and the cash that gave the team almost doubled their years budget

Edited by sanjiro, 25 October 2011 - 06:48.

[Mat]

would they?? i thought FOM money is distributed by final WCC positions (plus many other complex criteria) so if u win by 1 point, u still get the appropriate share??!!

FOM Money is broken down in a far more complex way than that.

There is money for the Top 10 in constructor points, but cash also handed out for race results, and even race results at halfway point of the race.

[Mat]

Here, just found the 1997 Concorde Agreement, here is an exert of prize funds:

http://memoiresdesta.../1585126625.pdf

THE PRIZE FUND
3.1 The Commercial Rights Holder shall divide the Prize Fund into three (3) parts and pay the share due to the Competitor in accordance with the provisions of this Clause 3, as follows:

a) twenty per cent (20%) according to final qualifying results;

b) forty-five per cent (45%) according to race results;

c) thirty-five per cent (35%) by way of fixed compensation.

Subject to Clause 6, the payments referred to in Clause 3.1 shall be distributed according to the following scale:

(a) Final Qualifying results (20%)

1st: 2.00% 6th: 1.30% 11th: .85% 16th: .60%
2nd: 1.75% 7th: 1.20% 12th: .80% 17th: .55%
3rd: 1.60% 8th: 1.10% 13th: .75% 18th: .50%
4th: 1.50% 9th: 1.00% 14th: .70% 19th: .45%
5th: 1.40% 10th: .90% 15th: .65% 20th: .40%

(b) Race Results (45%)

l/4 Distance 1/2 Distance 3/4 Distance Finish
1st: 1.02% 1.02% 1.02% 5.44%
2nd: .78% .78% .78% 4.16%
3rd: .63% .63% .63% 3.36%
4th: .51% .51% .51% 2.72%
5th: .39% .39% .39% 2.08%
6th: .30% .30% .30% 1.60%
7th: .24% .24% .24% 1.28%
8th: .216% .216% .216% 1.152%
9th: .192% .192% .192% 1.024%
10th: .168% .168% .168% .896%
11th: .15% .15% .15% .80%
12th: .138% .138% .138% .736%
13th: .126% .126% .126% .672%
14th: .114% .114% .114% .608%
5th: .102% .102% .102% .544%
16th: .09% .09% .09% .48%
17th: .078% .078% .078% .416%
18th: .066% .066% .066% .352%
19th: .054% .054% .054% .288%
20th: .036% .036% .036% .192%
(Distances to be rounded up to a whole number of laps)

C) Fixed Compensation (35%) shall be divided into two equal parts of 17.5% each:

(i) one such part shall be distributed to the competitors in proportion to the number of FIA F1 Championship points scored by each competitor in the previous two half seasons; and

(ii) the other such part shall be distributed equally among the top ten competitors in the FIA Fl Championship for the previous two half seasons and if the top ten competitors represent less than twenty cars to the next highest competitor and so on until compensation has been distributed to twenty cars provided that no competitor shall be entitled to such distribution in respect of a number of cars other than that which it entered for the whole of the previous FIA F1 championship and in any event shall not be so entitled in respect of more than two cars.

Edited by Mat, 25 October 2011 - 07:04.

[pazza]

wow i had no idea that the constructers prize money was so complex. makes massa seem like an even bigger waste of a seat.....

[goldenboy]

very interesting, thanks for posting that, had no idea.

[Zava]

Because Karne thinks Webber is cute.

ah, sorry I forgot that argument. I have to make a deep bow to that!

[Black Widow]

wow i had no idea that the constructers prize money was so complex. makes massa seem like an even bigger waste of a seat.....

And Webber even more valuable.

With all due respect, haven't you already worked that out?

Drivers = Glory

Constructors = $$$$

Which wins ?

ah, sorry I forgot that argument. I have to make a deep bow to that!

Zava, take your prejudice elsewhere, I for one do not appreciate it!

You continue to permeate this thread with vitreous comments that in no way can be perceived as lack of linguistic comprehension, as you so readily claim, or relevant to the discussion at hand.

In other words, "take it elsewhere son". Simple as that!

[Ian G]

As i posted elsewhere in this thread,i read last year that the WCC was worth over $80 million to RB of which drivers/staff got a percentage,no way of knowing if this figure was correct but whatever the case there are huge sums of money involved in the WCC.