A point brought up on another thread - what was the proportion of Norton 'Double Knocker' engines in 500cc at their peak in the 50s?
I always believed they were fairly rare as Norton refused to sell engines alone to 'car people' and insisted on them buying entire, very expensive, Grand Prix bikes to cannibalize.
And added to that are there now more Norton's in historic F3 than there were back-in-the day?
Norton 'double-knocker' engines in 500cc F3
Started by
simonlewisbooks
, Aug 12 2010 12:50
4 replies to this topic
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#2
Allan Lupton
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Posted 12 August 2010 - 13:03
Difficult for an outsider to tell as the entry lists often just showed "Cooper" rather than "Cooper-Norton" as we now refer to them. e.g. the programme for the 1950 Daily Express Meeting lists 36 entries of which 24 were Coopers, 3 Kiefts and two Emerysons but that's all it said. There was a two-page feature on the race which mentioned all sorts of things but never named an engine in anything.
Dutchy may be the man to answer.
Dutchy may be the man to answer.
Edited by Allan Lupton, 12 August 2010 - 13:04.
#3
David McKinney
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Posted 12 August 2010 - 14:06
Taking as an example the race at the 1952 British GP (ie, one of the biggest of the year), 23 of the 33 entries used Norton engines, nine JAPs and one Triumph. I am sure by, say, 1956, the proportion would be higher
(Information from the Formula 1 Register's relevant Fact Book)
(Information from the Formula 1 Register's relevant Fact Book)
#4
Dutchy
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Posted 12 August 2010 - 15:54
I have no figures to hand but I'm sure HiRich will be able to help out there.
However it is worth pointing out that by 1954 (I think) there were separate races and a junior championship for JAP powered cars. Henry Taylor won it in 1955 in the car I drive now.
The well known refusal of Norton Motors to sell separate engines led to a surplus of Manx Norton rolling chassis which in turn led to the creation of the Triton. The aforesaid intransigence of Norton Motors was clearly a contributory factor in the escalating cost of being competitive in the top flight of the category coupled with the need to have the engines maintained by a top tuner e.g. Beart/Lancefield/Petty
However it is worth pointing out that by 1954 (I think) there were separate races and a junior championship for JAP powered cars. Henry Taylor won it in 1955 in the car I drive now.
The well known refusal of Norton Motors to sell separate engines led to a surplus of Manx Norton rolling chassis which in turn led to the creation of the Triton. The aforesaid intransigence of Norton Motors was clearly a contributory factor in the escalating cost of being competitive in the top flight of the category coupled with the need to have the engines maintained by a top tuner e.g. Beart/Lancefield/Petty
#5
HiRich
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Posted 13 August 2010 - 11:58
Pretty much what Dutchy has said.
Up until about 1952, there was a mish-mash of Nortons of various vintages deployed, gradually taking over from the JAPs that were freely available in the early years and a handful of other options. But thereafter it was clear that all serious entrants needed the real McCoy. Pretty much all the name drivers in the Russell/Leston/Lewis-Evans era were definitely running full double-knockers. The trigger seems to be late 1950 (Moss secures a Norton) and particularly 1951, when Ecurie Richmond (Brown and Brandon) mopped up everything that the Moss-Kieft failed to finish or enter. In late '52, JAP were about to prototype a dedicated 4-pot racing engine, which might have changed the game, but Mr Prestwich's sudden death appears to kybosh that as it's never seen.
Certainly, the Norton factory were extremely (and rather strangely) reluctant to release engines, although a few escaped. I have an idea that Peter Collins did get one, but Moss did not. If I remember correctly, Cyril Kieft could not get one directly despite being on the board or an adviser to the board of Norton - his works engines were of various vintages secured by scouring the classifieds and using tip offs. It was all a bit odd when you realise quite how many Norton race team members, mechanics and engineers as well as riders, owned 500s a various times.
The first I am aware of to admit to buying a complete motorcycle was Bill Whitehouse, early in 1950 (also bringing Steve Lancefield into the 4-wheel game). However, I don't think you needed a full race bike for your donor engine, I'm pretty sure it was in a road bike. Serious racers would then pass it through the top tuners anyway (add Robin Jackson to the list), and I suspect all of them had contacts in the two-wheel fraternity who would snaffle up engines from bike racers. I don't think the engine was particularly scarce by the mid-50s, it was just the inability to just buy a race-tuned version off the shelf, so you either did the donkey work to locate one yourself, or paid whatever Francis/Steve/etc. demanded.
The JAP engine was freely available and consequently cheaper. It is also forgotten that it was a much better engine for hillclimbs & sprints, with a lot of low-down torque compared to the peakier Norton. Even now, JAPs dominate the hills, and you can see the difference out of the Mallory Hairpin or Silverstone Luffield - the JAP can pull a length or more until the Norton has wound itself up and surges past. And let's not forget that John Turner took a JAP to pole at the last Revival race in 2008, at a circuit where the JAP should only have the upper hand exiting the Chicane and the Assembly Area.
Now, both engines are available, although the Norton is about twice the price, well over £10k. And I think it's fair to say that 500 racing is at the more impecunious end of the historic racing community. Broadly, the post-1950 cars have Nortons (all twin cam, as far as I know) and JAPs for pre-'50 - you'll never make a Cooper Mk IV run with the later cars, so why bother with a more expensive engine? I think Dutchy might agree that, ancilliaries included, the JAP is a more temperamental beast. So if you can find the money and have the right chassis, you'd probably plump for a Norton (or two) for circuits, recognising that a blow up will probably mess up your season and definitely put you in the doghouse with SWMBO. If you can't justify that sort of money, you'll probably stick with a JAP. Because of the spread of older and newer cars and some of the owners we have, the split is about 50:50.
Up until about 1952, there was a mish-mash of Nortons of various vintages deployed, gradually taking over from the JAPs that were freely available in the early years and a handful of other options. But thereafter it was clear that all serious entrants needed the real McCoy. Pretty much all the name drivers in the Russell/Leston/Lewis-Evans era were definitely running full double-knockers. The trigger seems to be late 1950 (Moss secures a Norton) and particularly 1951, when Ecurie Richmond (Brown and Brandon) mopped up everything that the Moss-Kieft failed to finish or enter. In late '52, JAP were about to prototype a dedicated 4-pot racing engine, which might have changed the game, but Mr Prestwich's sudden death appears to kybosh that as it's never seen.
Certainly, the Norton factory were extremely (and rather strangely) reluctant to release engines, although a few escaped. I have an idea that Peter Collins did get one, but Moss did not. If I remember correctly, Cyril Kieft could not get one directly despite being on the board or an adviser to the board of Norton - his works engines were of various vintages secured by scouring the classifieds and using tip offs. It was all a bit odd when you realise quite how many Norton race team members, mechanics and engineers as well as riders, owned 500s a various times.
The first I am aware of to admit to buying a complete motorcycle was Bill Whitehouse, early in 1950 (also bringing Steve Lancefield into the 4-wheel game). However, I don't think you needed a full race bike for your donor engine, I'm pretty sure it was in a road bike. Serious racers would then pass it through the top tuners anyway (add Robin Jackson to the list), and I suspect all of them had contacts in the two-wheel fraternity who would snaffle up engines from bike racers. I don't think the engine was particularly scarce by the mid-50s, it was just the inability to just buy a race-tuned version off the shelf, so you either did the donkey work to locate one yourself, or paid whatever Francis/Steve/etc. demanded.
The JAP engine was freely available and consequently cheaper. It is also forgotten that it was a much better engine for hillclimbs & sprints, with a lot of low-down torque compared to the peakier Norton. Even now, JAPs dominate the hills, and you can see the difference out of the Mallory Hairpin or Silverstone Luffield - the JAP can pull a length or more until the Norton has wound itself up and surges past. And let's not forget that John Turner took a JAP to pole at the last Revival race in 2008, at a circuit where the JAP should only have the upper hand exiting the Chicane and the Assembly Area.
Now, both engines are available, although the Norton is about twice the price, well over £10k. And I think it's fair to say that 500 racing is at the more impecunious end of the historic racing community. Broadly, the post-1950 cars have Nortons (all twin cam, as far as I know) and JAPs for pre-'50 - you'll never make a Cooper Mk IV run with the later cars, so why bother with a more expensive engine? I think Dutchy might agree that, ancilliaries included, the JAP is a more temperamental beast. So if you can find the money and have the right chassis, you'd probably plump for a Norton (or two) for circuits, recognising that a blow up will probably mess up your season and definitely put you in the doghouse with SWMBO. If you can't justify that sort of money, you'll probably stick with a JAP. Because of the spread of older and newer cars and some of the owners we have, the split is about 50:50.
