134 replies to this topic

[ASaSeN]

We should all thankfull to adrain newey because he is the main reason F1 has has been so entertaining through the 90s.

Without his genius almost every season of the 90s would of been a straight romp to the WC for one team instead of two.

91 Mansell wouldnt of challenged without newey.
93 Prost wouldnt of won.
94 Hill wouldnt of been able to challenge.
95 Well even with newey Hill wasnt able to challenge:)
96 Who knows.
97 Without newey JV had no chance.
98 Michael would of easily won
99 Irvine would of won.
2000 Michael would of won the WC by mid season.

Its safe to say if newey never existed michael would have 5 or 6 Wcs and would of been unchallenged throught most of the 90s.

[100cc]

just because newey wasn't there doesn't mean that the cars wouldn't have existed.....

[ASaSeN]

Well cars of that performance wouldnt of existed

[Nathan]

#1 If the Williams wasnt that good in 93, Prost would not have gone to the team.

#2 Most of the '92/'93 cars success were their VERY advaned electronic aids. ie TC, active suspension (the most important) Newey was only in charge of the aerodynamics.

#4 Every Newey car has had a top-2 engine.

#5 Nearly every driver that has driven a Newey car has at one time either been touted as a future chmp or was a champion. So its not like any of the drivers are or were slouches.

#6 Newey has always been with a team that is VERY well funded. Testing and quality control is what wins. You need money for both. You can't just ink those two into a CAD design.

#7 A lot the of the McLarens early success must be credited to Mercedes very advanced engine and the Macs very advanced electronics. Agin 2 things Newey didnt have much imput in.

I will grant Newey is the best current designer, I just think you are glorifying him quite a bit here.

[ASaSeN]

In 97 mclraen had the most powerfull engine yet they were nowhere until newey came aboard midyear.

Thats when they started fighting for poles and outright wins

[Pascal]

Originally posted by ASaSeN
In 97 mclraen had the most powerfull engine yet they were nowhere until newey came aboard midyear.

Powerful? yes. Reliable? Hardly. Quite a bit of oversimplification here...

[ASaSeN]

My point is that they had power but still could not compete with the willaims until newey came aboard mid season.
Even when they didnt blow they were not as fast as the willaims until midseason

[magic]

without newey senna would be at least 5xwdc and alive today.

[Billy]

Of crucial importance is the conversion of engine power into downforce through aerodynamics. The more efficient this process, the better. You want lots of downforce generated from as little engine power as possible. Newey seems to do this better than anyone else.

Ferrari are not as good as McLaren. For example, at Spa Ferrari introduced a new engine revision for qualifying, with greater power than ever before. However they made a serious aerodynamic mistake with the undertray and front wing, and MS ended 4th on the grid, RB 10th. MS was forced into a ridiculous aerodynamic setup for the race which sacrificed top speed for better handling in the tighter parts of the circuit.

Now the teams with wind tunnels run them 24 hours a day, 7 days a week ...

[magic]

without newey senna would be driving ferrari and kicking german butt.

[Billy]

I read that after Brazil and Aida in 1994, Senna had written 4 pages of changes describing changes to the car after each race. The car was in a very intensive state of development ... the welds to the steering column were just one of many changes required by Senna to improve the car. How is Newey responsible for that?

[Jhope]

enough of the drama magic.

[Ali_G]

Magic: Senna should have won 4 times in a row. Prost should have been disqualified in 89. Senna would have won in 94 if he had not died. And multiple titles with Williams after that.

Niall

[AD]

Murray Walker,

if is F1 spelt backwards

[Paste]

1) I don't think Senna would have won in 1994.
2) If Prost should have been dq'd in '89, then Senna certainly should have in '90.

I hate threads like this. I can turn it around though.. We should be thankful for Byrne designing the Ferraris and Benettons. Without him it would have been a Newey romp to the title every year.

Same diff.

haha magic, you make me laugh.

[magic]

since mai '94 it has been off season for poor magic.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Well if Prost had been DQ'd from 89, 90 wouldnt have happened

The 97 Mclaren was very very good when it was on song. That was without Bridgestones or Adrian Newey. They very nearly got it right.

It still takes a great driver to drive a great car.


You dont think Senna would have won in 94? Replace Damon with Aryton with the same set of circumstances (yes I know the season would have gone much differently) and I think Senna would have taken it in the end.

[Paste]

But that goes with me being of the opinion that the FIA were keeping Schumacher on the sidelines to keep the show exciting. Like the DQ's and race bans and stuff. I personally feel that they wanted to keep Damon in the fight, lest it be a walkover for MS, so they made the punishments a little more harsh than normal, thereby keeping the title close.

Let Michael start all the races, eliminate all the TC BS, and put Senna in the Williams. It'd be close, but I think given Michael's advantage after the first few races he'd have won it.

[MP4/?]

Some of the Schumi fans are sick

[Ross Stonefeld]

I dunno, the Silverstone thing seemed pretty cut and dry. He didnt obey the black flag, and then they appealed, and irvine showed appealing is not a good thing. I think some of the stuff that led UP to the black flag was a bit iffy though.

[B.Traven]

It's all the same to me , whoever win the races . I just watch it to see Vestappen to kick his own Dutch ass !

-------------------------------

I love Minardi

[Paste]

Originally posted by MP4/?
Some of the Schumi fans are sick

You calling me a Schumi fan?? If so, do some research pal. I'm anything but. I respect the guy, but that's about it. And even if I was a fan, why the hell is it sick?? Because I think he'd have beaten Senna?? Oh no!! Sacrelige!! SOMEONE BAN ME NOW...


Ross, it's all speculation! I wish we'd been able to see how that would have played out.

[Mr Melvin]

Who would have known what could have happened in 1994 if Senna was alive?. Maybe Benetton would have been caught with traction control.

[MP4/?]

Originally posted by Paste

Originally posted by MP4/?
Some of the Schumi fans are sick

You calling me a Schumi fan?? If so, do some research pal. I'm anything but. I respect the guy, but that's about it. And even if I was a fan, why the hell is it sick?? Because I think he'd have beaten Senna?? Oh no!! Sacrelige!! SOMEONE BAN ME NOW...


Ross, it's all speculation! I wish we'd been able to see how that would have played out.

Dear Paste:

I'm not talking about you. I'm refering to people that are always trying to say that Schumi wins with a terrible car.

I can say you yhat Schumacher would never have taken the 1994 if Senna had stayed alife. In 1995 he has the best car in the grid and in the 2000 the same.

What is the problem with this?

Senna won his three championships with the best car in the grid, and 90% on F1 fan says that he is the best driver ever. I call this the "Schumi complex".

[Paste]

Why are Schumi fans sick?? Please clarify this for me.

[Billy]

Originally posted by MP4/?
In 1995 [Michael Schumacher] had the best car in the grid ...

by implication, David Coulthard was driving a worse car.

1995 Poles
DC 5
MS 4

therefore DC is a better driver than MS, because he achieved more poles in a worse car.

[silver fan]

Originally posted by magic
without newey senna would be driving ferrari and kicking german butt.

Even with Newey Senna was getting his tired ass spanked by the afformentioned German.;)

[Ivan]

There is a great article about Newey in the latest Motersport mag. Very interesting story about Button (Cover) as well.

[t@nk_girl]

Dear ASaSeN,

in about all your posts and all the threads you start, you try to make clear by a way or another that Shuey is the greatest ever, and the rest of the drivers are basically all wankers, especially MH and DC. That´s fine with me. You are entiteled to your opinion. No problem here.

While it has been somewhat entertaining to follow the different ways you reach the same conclusion (e.g. DC is a super-wanker, but not much slower than MH, so MH is a wanker or: Newey cars are super-super-super, still MH doesn´t win WDC with 50 points ahead, so: he´s a wanker), it kind of starts to be redundand and boring.

We got your point. Try something new.

sincerely,

t@nk_girl[p][Edited by t@nk_girl on 12-18-2000]

[silver fan]

Actually it's not Cubehead (as much as it pains me to admit it) or Hakkinen that are the wanker(s) here. Fairly obvious who is though.;)

[MuMu]

I don't think Newey is such a big deal. The slump in Williams' performance was due more to the Meccacrap engines they used rather than his departure. The Mclaren was already on the way up when he joined - he just completed the picture as any gooddesigner would. If he was that great then how come the 94/95 Bennetons and the 2000 Ferrari were better than the Newey equivalent?

[ASaSeN]

MuMu you wrote: "I don't think Newey is such a big deal"

Since newey left williams they have not won a race in 3 SEAONS,infact they havent looked like winning a race.

The supertec was not the main reason the williams was so **** in 98,99.
Did you forget that willaims introduced a whole new rear end for the car midway through the 98 season because the car was so ****.
The drivers complained about the car always.

On the flipside we look at mclaren.
As soon as newey comes aboard they start lapping the whole field.
They already had the most powerfull engine in 97 but they were not even close to the 98 performace level.

Its plain to see the impact newey has on teams.



You wrote "If he was that great then how come the 94/95 Bennetons and the 2000 Ferrari were better than the Newey equivalent?"

It was plain to see that the 95 benetton was not as good as the williams.I have never read an article in any F1 publication saying the Benetton was even a match for the williams let alone better.

By mid season of 94 the williams was the better car.
And if you beleive the 2000 ferrari was the the best car then you also beleive that DC is a faster driver that michael schumcher because in terms of speed he was faster than michael in probably the majority of races.

[Paste]

And if you beleive the 2000 ferrari was the the best car then you also beleive that DC is a faster driver that michael schumcher because in terms of speed he was faster than michael in probably the majority of races.

I guess that explains Michael qualifying on pole MANY more times than DC and running ahead of him most of the time??!

That's the funniest thing I've read all day simply because it's absolutely not true!! LOL

[magic]

you must agree though that the ferraris this season were very strong qualifiers.
much better compared to the macs of '98 and '99.

on the other hand mac were sometimes remarkably better in the race, sadly not reliable enough on too many occaisions.
a more reliable macs could have turned ms vics into mh vics.
like aus, bra & indy.

so 6 vics for ms and 7 for mh.


ferrria not only built a quick and driveble car, it was rocksolid too.

i must admire byrne.
in '98 newey build the state of the art mp13, mp 14 was an good evolution, and the mp15 nothing new.

byrne bounced back, helped by that genius engineguy, with again a totally new car, which wiped the rest.

in '98 ferrari turned a 2 sec gap into a slight advantage.
same for '99.
in '00 they started on par and at the end were in front.
mac could keep up, ilmor not.

[Nathan]

Originally posted by ASaSeN
MuMu You wrote I don't think Newey is such a big deal"

Since newey left williams they have not won a race in 3 SEAONS,infact they havent looked like winning a race.

The supertec was not the main reason the williams was so **** in 98,99.
Did you forget that willaims introduced a whole new rear end for the car midway through the 98 season because the car was so ****.
The drivers complained about the car always.

On the flipside we look at mclaren.
As soon as newey comes aboard they start lapping the whole field.
They already had the most powerfull engine in 97 but they were not even close to the 98 performace level.

Its plain to see the impact newey has on teams.

First off I dont think other comments you made in that post are neccasary...

Are you Adrian Newey just kidding...

Ok here is my response to what you wrote...

The reason why Williams started to suck isnt JUST or mainly because of Newey's departure, they simply have not had a decent engine. Even if Newey did stay, I cant see him being so great that he would have turned the 2000 Williams into a winner.

The designer of that 98 car was a rookie. Do you expect a rookie designer to match the talent of Newey?? Willaims top 2 designers both left, that being Newey to McLaren and Egghead (again sorry dont no how to spell his name) went to Stewart, then to Arrows and I believe is now at Jordan.

So you have a team that loose a works engine, has to use year old and eventually 2 year old engines, and looses not only their head designer, but their assistant head designer as well. Also has to deal with 2 totally new drivers, plus I beleive they lost there best race engineer.

Lets not mention the other employees that left for BAR, all those are a heavy toll on a team. It wasnt just Newey leaving that caused the problems.

I agree with your comment about McLaren, but that was not JUST Newey again. Mercedes has had the most technically advanced and most powerful engine since then.

You do make alot of good points, but you do seem to, as I said before, glorify Newey way to much. He is good, the best in fact and does alot, but not to the extent you like think. He has alot to work with, the best engine, the 2nd best budget, along with 2 Top-6 drivers and one of the most advanced, best organized teams in the business.

Can I ask you this, how do you feel about Steve Nichols??[p][Edited by Nathan on 12-18-2000]

[ASaSeN]

You can talk theories all you want as long as you want but its all pretty simple.

Dc is not as fast as michael let alone faster,i think every sane F1 fan would agree.
Dc is not in michaels class.

Now Dc MANY times was faster than michael this year,regardless if michael was running ahead of him.
So For a driver of Dcs calibre to to be faster his car is better.
Ive heard countless times from various people on this board that everyone has a bad day and no ones unbeatable blah blah

Well that applys for the average drivers,but drivers like prost,senna schumchaer have proven that they dont have off days and get beaten by the lesser drivers.

How often did berger outrace senna?
ZERO times in 3 years.
How often have michaels teammates have ran in front of him on merit and been faster in a race?

Dc doesnt just get out of bed everynow and then and develop the talent to match it with an all time great.


I cant see what the problem is.
If you think Dc can run with michael then you are simply belittle'ing michaels talent,because like it or not he is ARGUABLY the greatest driver of all time.

[Billy]

Originally posted by ASaSeN
Now Dc MANY times was faster than michael this year,regardless if michael was running ahead of him.

which races other than Magny Cours?

[Nikolas Garth]

Originally posted by Billy
which races other than Magny Cours?

It would be interesting to see the lap times from Silverstone and Malaysia. Also if Trulli wasn't holding DC up at Monaco, what were the lap times there?

[Ripples]

Originally posted by magic
you must agree though that the ferraris this season were very strong qualifiers.
much better compared to the macs of '98 and '99.

on the other hand mac were sometimes remarkably better in the race, sadly not reliable enough on too many occaisions.
a more reliable macs could have turned ms vics into mh vics.
like aus, bra & indy.

so 6 vics for ms and 7 for mh.

What are you talking about? McLaren had less mechanical retirements than Ferrari this year.

[Billy]

"It would be interesting to see the lap times from Silverstone and Malaysia. Also if Trulli wasn't holding DC up at Monaco, what were the lap times there?"

I think DC was third or fourth fastest at Silverstone. Mika was so angry having been held up he went out on a series of fastest laps after his last pitstop. He frightened the team so much that they told him to slow down. Michael in third couldn't keep up. David was well in the lead and didn't have to try, but Mika gave him and Michael a clear message.

I remember Mika was fastest at Monaco too, then DC, then Fisi, then Rubens.

Watching Malaysia you can compare Michael and DC in the fast corners. DC's car looks like it's on rails, but Michael is way out of control. Rubens said after Malaysia that was the first race he had ever gone 100% for the whole race, and he was left way way behind.

[magic]

Ripples
What are you talking about? McLaren had less mechanical retirements than Ferrari this year.


ms had 2 mech ret.
mh 4.

whpo cares about dc or rb?

[Nikolas Garth]

MAGIC,
where do you get 4 failure for MH.

Where else besides Australia, Brazil & USA did he dnf?

[Billy]

Non-DNF mech problems

MH
Imola
(a) engine died for a few seconds on the straight
(b) ran over debris on track and damaged undertray.

Monaco
telemetry box falls under accelerator pedal, has to pit.

MS
Brazil: Engine oil surges, slows down on (left-handed?) corners

Spain: Tyre problems

Canada: Brake problems

any others?

[Nikolas Garth]

I suspect with how slow MS was going for the last 15 laps in Australia, he had a problem there as well. Luckily for him, both Macs were out.

[ASaSeN]

When Dc got clear air at monaco he srated to set fastest laps and catch michael.

If that isnt a sign of a better car i dont know what is.

Noone can come close to michael at monaco.

96 monaco qualifying michael outqualifyed damon hill by HALF A SECOND.......thats unbeleiveable considering how good the 96 willaims was and how bad that ferarri was.

[man from martinlaakso]

ASaSeN, I think, that DC the raw speed of DC is very close to MS's speed. Still as a racer DC is not in Michael's class.

Also MS has so off days, and might be beaten by a lesser driver. But this happens VERY seldom.

I agree very much with Nathan, Newey was an important factor in the rise of the Mac, but he was not the only thing, the strong Ilmor engine and the Bridgestone tyres helped a lot in 1998, and still in 1999 the Mac engine was the best.

The rise of the Mac began already in early 1997, DC won the first GP and MH was third. If the Ilmor engine would have been more reliable, McLaren would have fought tightly for the WCC title in 1997.

[Nathan]

Originally posted by ASaSeN
When Dc got clear air at monaco he srated to set fastest laps and catch michael.

If that isnt a sign of a better car i dont know what is.

Noone can come close to michael at monaco.

96 monaco qualifying michael outqualifyed damon hill by HALF A SECOND.......thats unbeleiveable considering how good the 96 willaims was and how bad that ferarri was.

aSaSeN you dont have a point there. Alot can determine why DC was catching him. For all we know DC could have had a lighter fuel load, better tires, MS could have been dogging it abit to keep the car, as most know, its one thing to catch, another to pass. So many different possibilites and variables.

Also take into note some drivers are better at some tracks than others. Again with Monaco, one year Senna was over a second faster in qualifying than Prost in the same car. Yet, Senna, other than Monaco, he never dominated Prost like that. So maybe MS is better at Monaco than Hill. Again aother one of your points with no backing or thinking.

And another thing. Just because McLaren had the better car, doesnt mean that Newey should be credited with it.

And you didnt answer my question, what is your opinion of Steve Nichols?

[ASaSeN]

who the hell IS Steve Nichols?

[Nathan]

As much as I dislike DC, Here are the facts at too his speed...

Let me proove he is a top 5 driver in terms of out right speed.

Im going to use qualifying for my theory. The reason is during qualifying sessions, unlike race and practice, there are no team tactics, the cars are all set-up for one thing, pure speed, the fuel loads are the same, the tires conditions is the same, its nothing but driver talent. DC and Mika had the same cars, same tires, same set-usp (only more tailored to each) same fuel, and same team and eengineers. Both know the car well, the team well. Virtually nothing different car wise. That means the only real marginal difference will be the drivers talent.

1998

Australia..MH on pole, DC .043 behind
Brazil..MH on pole, DC .665 behind
Argentina..DC on pole, MH .780 behind
San Marino..DC on pole, MH .102 behind
Spain..MH on pole, DC .733 behind
Monaco..MH on pole, DC .339 behind
Canada..DC on pole, MH .069 behind
France..MH on pole, DC .404 behind
Britian..MH on pole, DC 1.039 behind
Austria..due to the different weather, this one doesnt count
Germany..MH on pole, DC .509 behind
Hungary..MH on pole, DC .158 behind
Belgium..MH on pole, DC .163 behind
Italy..MH is 3rd, DC .308 behind
Luxemburg..MH is 3rd, DC .229 behind
Japan..MH is 2nd, DC 1.025 behind

15 races to count, MH out qualifield DC 12 times. Of those 12 times DC averaged only .440 second behind Hakkinen. All 15 sessions averaged together DC was .289 seconds behind MH the whole year.

1999

Australia..MH on pole, DC .484 behind
Brazil..MH on pole, DC .147 behind
San Marino..MH on pole, DC .022 behind
Monaco..MH on pole, DC .409 behind
Spain..MH on pole, DC .156 behind
Canada..MH on pole, DC .431 behind
France...again do to the weather accurate numbers cant be found
Britian..MH on pole, DC .498 behind
Austria..MH on pole DC, .199 behind
Germnay..MH on pole DC, .338 behind
Hungary..MH on pole DC, .228 behind
Belgium..MH on pole DC, .155 behind
Italy..MH on pole DC, .745 behind
European..DC 2nd, MH .200 behind
Malaysia..DC 3rd, MH .060 behind
Japan..MH 2nd, DC .419 behind

15 races to count, MH out qualifield DC 13 times. Of those 13 times DC averaged only .326 second behind Hakkinen. All 15 sessions averaged together DC was .265 seconds behind MH the whole year.

Now Im not going to bother with 2000 right now because Im tired. But I have made my point clear. Of 30 qualifying sessions, where there are no team tactics, the cars are all set-up for one thing, pure speed, the fuel loads are the same, the tire condition is the same, its nothing but driver talent, DC averaged over those 2 years to be ONLY .277 seconds per lap slower than the 2 time World Champion Mika Hakkinen. While Mika is faster yes, hence why he beat David 25 time out of 30, he isnt much faster.

So before you say DC is slow, or nothing compared speed wise to Mika, look at the facts and do the math.

And thats the point to my ramblings. Mika is faster yes, but not by much. And if Mika is the fastest or second fastest, than Mr Cunthard who is less than .25 seconds behind must be looked upon as top 3-4-5 material.[p][Edited by Nathan on 12-18-2000]

[Nathan]

Originally posted by ASaSeN
who the hell IS Steve Nichols?

You must be new to Formula-One.

Steve Nichols is the man who designed the McLaren MP4/4. Since you probably dont know what that is, that is the car that won 15 of 16 races in 1988. Adrian Newey has never done that.

Now before you scrable for your record books. Yes Senna and Prost were driving the car. Yes McLaren had the Honda engine. All the best at the time. Ohhh...would you look at that! Sort of the same situation now. The best engine, 2 of the top 4 or 5 best drivers, same team...huh...you'd almost think if it wasnt for Mr. Nochols, Mr Senna and Mr Prost would be quite a few championships short.;) But yet he doesnt get the credit. Noooo, the drivers and engine do. So why should Newey get all this? Cause he did the same thing with the same best engine, with the same best drivers and with the same best team?!?!?!

I think another interesting note is this. Mr Egghead as mentioned was Neweys right hand man, and as mentioned, left Williams the same year. Know what I find interesting? The 2 teams he went too, Stewart and Arrows, had some of the fastest top speed cars. Thats with engines of less power than the Merc and Ferrari, yet still went faster. Sort of makes you think who really did the job aerodynamic wise at Williams. Not saying Mr Newey didnt, but he had alot of help.

Look at history...these are all facts, no fiction, no theory.

Now dont start bitching how DC isnt a top 4 or 5 driver. He is. I dont like that, but I proved that. Less than a quarter a second slower than Hakky for 2 years of qualifying.[p][Edited by Nathan on 12-18-2000]