347 replies to this topic

[Mal9444]

Apologies for starting yet another thread - but I did not want to be responsible for going off-topic in the Le Mans thread. There I learn that some 1,900 1:43rd scale models of Le Mans cars have been released: far too may for one person to collect (but then again...)

My primary collecting interest centres around Stirling Moss.

Does anyone know how many 1:43rd scale Moss cars have been released? I have about 20 in my modest collection, with perhaps another 10 of cars that he did drive, but the model is of the same car but in another race with another driver. One or two I have are re-paints, to put them into Moss livery, there being no original model that I could find (within my price range). It would be interesting (and probably depressing) to know how many more I have to go.

There seem to be some surprising gaps - and on the other hand several examples of 1:43rd scale cars he drove only once, including at least one (Merc 196 Streamliner) that I have that he tested but did not race. I bid recently for a very nice looking one-off of a Lister - Jag that he drove only once in a minor race at Goodwood, but it went way beyond my price.

The GMH has a fabulous collection in a variety of scales (not to say materials, including solid silver) that I have been able to see but neither he nor I have counted them, and in any case there are quite a few duplicates.

Supplementary question: am I the only Moss collector who has every car he drove at Dundrod? (Answer - very probably, and it is not necessarily someting to boast about!)

Edited by Mal9444, 17 August 2010 - 15:43.

[RCH]

I have recently bought and sold some interesting Moss cars (a model maker I am sometimes able to buy one offs and handbuilts from has a large collection of Moss cars). I still have 2 SMTS Cooper 500s available, Lake Garda and Monaco. I have recently sold an early HWM, a Cooper Alta, a Lister Bristol and a Connaught sports car. At the risk of being accused of advertising check out www.modelgarage.co.uk but not immediately because we have some sort of host/server problem.

[anyat]

Apologies for starting yet another thread - but I did not want to be responsible for going off-topic in the Le Mans thread. There I learn that some 1,900 1:43rd scale models of Le Mans cars have been released: far too may for one person to collect (but then again...)

My primary collecting interest centres around Stirling Moss.

Does anyone know how many 1:43rd scale Moss cars have been released? I have about 20 in my modest collection, with perhaps another 10 of cars that he did drive, but the model is of the same car but in another race with another driver. One or two I have are re-paints, to put them into Moss livery, there being no original model that I could find (within my price range). It would be interesting (and probably depressing) to know how many more I have to go.

There seem to be some surprising gaps - and on the other hand several examples of 1:43rd scale cars he drove only once, including at least one (Merc 196 Streamliner) that I have that he tested but did not race. I bid recently for a very nice looking one-off of a Lister - Jag that he drove only once in a minor race at Goodwood, but it went way beyond my price.

The GMH has a fabulous collection in a variety of scales (not to say materials, including solid silver) that I have been able to see but neither he nor I have counted them, and in any case there are quite a few duplicates.

Supplementary question: am I the only Moss collector who has every car he drove at Dundrod? (Answwer - very probably, and it is not necessarily someting to boast about!)

At the risk of advertising myself. I have my own site where I restore Dinky and Crescent models as driver/race/car configuration. i also sell them on Ebay. My Ebay name is anyat-2009 from there you will be able to follow the trail to my site.. I have just finished a Moss Crecent W196 that I will load later today. I also put scale drivers into Brumm, IXO RBA and any other diecast 1:43--its more of a hobby, but I try to make it a self funding hobby

[dmj]

I'm quite confident that in modest price range Brumm would be the best source for Moss-related models. But easiest way to add models to the list would definitely be if you write down a list of those 20 models you already have and the others you know about and then we'd be pleased to add the others...

[Mal9444]

I'm quite confident that in modest price range Brumm would be the best source for Moss-related models. But easiest way to add models to the list would definitely be if you write down a list of those 20 models you already have and the others you know about and then we'd be pleased to add the others...

I have 21 specifically Moss models in 1:43rd scale (plus some others in other scales, notably a 1:18 model of each time he won in the 300slr, with the steering wheels where necessary converted from four-spoke to three-spoke).

1950 Jaguar XK120 # 7 in pale green – RAC TT Dundrod 1950 - repaint of Brumm No 26 Silverstone with added tonneau.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I believe there to be only two of these in the world. I have one and Moss has the other – although I have seen on a Jaguar website a picture of a period-produced one-off, scale unknown.

1951 Jaguar XK120 #26 Silverstone – the original silver Brumm from which the above was fashioned.

1951 HWM # 7 – Dinky repaint

1952 BRM v16 - #8 Ulster GP – Crescent repaint

1952 Jaguar XKC # 7 RAC TT Dundrod – repaint of a Brumm non-Moss car. Another unique model?

1953 Jaguar C-type # 17 – Le Mans - Brumm;

1953 Jaguar C-type # 619 – Mille Miglia – Brumm;

1953 Jaguar C-type longtail # 17 – Le Mans – Brumm;

1954 Jaguar D-type # 12 Le Mans – Brumm (but not truly accurate, it being a fudge-up of their long-nose casting);

1954 Jaguar D-type # 14 – Rheims - Brumm (see above)

1954 Jaguar D-type # 20 OKV 3 RAC TT Dundrod – self-assembled SMTS kit of a ’54 short-nose with special numbers. I believe this model to be unique. It also gives me a full-house of Moss’s appearances in a D-type, my own favourite sports-racer of the period.

1955 Merc W196 # 12 – British GP – Brumm

1955 Merc 300slr 722 – Mille Miglia – Brumm

1955 Merc 300slr # 19 – Le Mans – Brumm;

1955 Merc 300slr # 10 RAC TT Dundrod – self-assembled SMTS kit modified to show rear body damage after the tyre-burst. Two in the world: I have one, Moss has the other.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us
(Moss also has another version, part of a four-car one-off set he bought at auction some years ago.)

1955 Merc W196 streamliner #20 – tested by Moss at Monza but never raced. Maker unknown.

1957 Maserati 450s # 537 Mille Miglia – a really lovely little model by Bang.

1958 Vanwall # 26 Italian GP – Brumm

1959 Cooper T51 # 14 Italian GP – Brumm

1960 – Lotus 19 # 7 Luguna Seca – Quartzo – purchased primarily because this was the car in which he made his decision to retire.

1961 – Maserati Birdcage Tipo 60/61 # 7 – Cuban GP - a really lovely dePrado model.

The percipient will notice that most of the above are by Brumm, which tells you all you need to know about my budget and buying habits. The next on my list to acquire is the Costin-bodied 1956 Le Mans Maserati coupe – just because it is so hideous – and Barry Boor is very kindly prepping for me a UDT-livery BRM. The next build-project will probably be the SMTS kit 1952 BRM V16 as raced in the 1952 Ulster GP, to replace the Crescent. St Martins offer an already-made version, but at £99 that is about double my price ceiling and about 5 times what I would be comfortable paying.

Doug Nye lists no fewer than 82 different types driven by Moss in his career – and not even the GMH has a model of every one - so I appreciate I have a long way to go. I do not have the budget – and I doubt I have the will – to acquire every one myself (why would you?). I try to find a personal connection with each car as well: I saw Moss in it; I have since seen it restored; Moss has told me an anecdote concerning it; something like that.

It is kind of RCH and anyat to offer me their brochures, but as much as anything I was hoping to generate a discussion of what others already have – especially anything unusual. All the same, I could well be tempted by something to represent the very start of his career, in the 500cc Cooper or Keift though if these are made-up SMTS kits they will be beyond my self-imposed budget limits.

Edited by Mal9444, 17 January 2011 - 16:36.

[EDWARD FITZGERALD]

In the last year or so a large collection of S Moss models was offered for sale by the widow of the collector , and I understand the collection was bought by the Haynes Museum , from the photos which appeared at the time it is worth a look, a friend made the Dundrod Merc in the collection using a Brumm model as the base model, there were some one offs in the collection made by various English artisans .

[Mal9444]

In the last year or so a large collection of S Moss models was offered for sale by the widow of the collector , and I understand the collection was bought by the Haynes Museum , from the photos which appeared at the time it is worth a look, a friend made the Dundrod Merc in the collection using a Brumm model as the base model, there were some one offs in the collection made by various English artisans .

Fascinating - thanks. Just Googled the name. I pass the signs for the museum on the way to and from taking/ visiting/ collecting my eldest unmarried to/ at/ from Exter University.

I feel a stop-over coming on.

[Tony Lethbridge]

Fascinating - thanks. Just Googled the name. I pass the signs for the museum on the way to and from taking/ visiting/ collecting my eldest unmarried to/ at/ from Exter University.

I feel a stop-over coming on.

The Haynes Museum is always worth a visit, and is just an hour up the A303 for me. That Moss collection should be well worth seeing.

Creating a one driver collection at reasonable cost is not too difficult. My own little Sir Stirling display is just a dozen cars with pride of place going to a SMTS Monaco Lotus 18 minus side panels which I bought ready built about 20 years ago for the massive amount of £40. It seemed like a fortune at the time, but ,compared with current prices, was a bargain and is still my favourite model. I also have a Junior Schuco Eldorado Special which I picked up for three quid at a collectors fayre, as well as a Corgi Ferrari 156, obtained for 50p and now resplendent in Rob Walker colours in readiness for 1962. Its surprising what you can find at a good toy and train fayre. Best bargain was a superb Renaissance 1954 250F kit reduced from £60 to £20. It was much too tricky for my meagre modelling skills so I swopped with my good friend Pat Gorman, who needed it for his impressive Sir Stirling line-up.

I have assembled a Mike Hawthorn collection, at no massive cost, based mainly on Brumm models, which now numbers 40 plus cars. It includes every Dino 246 that he drove, as well as various Jaguars and his other Ferraris plus racing and road Lancias. I am still searching for a Riley, plus a Cooper Bristol and Connaught to replace my Dinky and Crescent versions. Latest bit of luck came last Sunday morning at the Newton Abbot fayre where a guy was disposing of both his model collection and his library. I picked up a Brumm Hawthorn/ Peter Collins boxed set ( albeit with broken box) of Thin Wall Special and Dino for £15 while Pat got the Stirling/TonyBrooks set of Vanwall and Rob Walker Cooper for the same price.

There are bargains to be had and finding them is great fun.

[Mal9444]

The Haynes Museum is always worth a visit, and is just an hour up the A303 for me. That Moss collection should be well worth seeing.

Creating a one driver collection at reasonable cost is not too difficult. My own little Sir Stirling display is just a dozen cars with pride of place going to a SMTS Monaco Lotus 18 minus side panels which I bought ready built about 20 years ago for the massive amount of £40. It seemed like a fortune at the time, but ,compared with current prices, was a bargain and is still my favourite model. I also have a Junior Schuco Eldorado Special which I picked up for three quid at a collectors fayre, as well as a Corgi Ferrari 156, obtained for 50p and now resplendent in Rob Walker colours in readiness for 1962. Its surprising what you can find at a good toy and train fayre. Best bargain was a superb Renaissance 1954 250F kit reduced from £60 to £20. It was much too tricky for my meagre modelling skills so I swopped with my good friend Pat Gorman, who needed it for his impressive Sir Stirling line-up.

I have assembled a Mike Hawthorn collection, at no massive cost, based mainly on Brumm models, which now numbers 40 plus cars. It includes every Dino 246 that he drove, as well as various Jaguars and his other Ferraris plus racing and road Lancias. I am still searching for a Riley, plus a Cooper Bristol and Connaught to replace my Dinky and Crescent versions. Latest bit of luck came last Sunday morning at the Newton Abbot fayre where a guy was disposing of both his model collection and his library. I picked up a Brumm Hawthorn/ Peter Collins boxed set ( albeit with broken box) of Thin Wall Special and Dino for £15 while Pat got the Stirling/TonyBrooks set of Vanwall and Rob Walker Cooper for the same price.

There are bargains to be had and finding them is great fun.

And like you, I am in no hurry.

But I really do want that Maser coupe...

[raceannouncer2003]

I only have six Moss models. Here are a couple I don't see on your list:

1955 Targa Florio, #104, Collins/Moss, Mercedes 300SLR, 1/43, Brumm S034 (’95 model)
1961 Tourist Trophy, #7, Moss, Ferrari 250GT SWB, 1/43, Bang, 7232

Vince H.

[Mal9444]

I only have six Moss models. Here are a couple I don't see on your list:

1955 Targa Florio, #104, Collins/Moss, Mercedes 300SLR, 1/43, Brumm S034 (’95 model)
1961 Tourist Trophy, #7, Moss, Ferrari 250GT SWB, 1/43, Bang, 7232

Vince H.

Thanks. I have the Targa Florio 300slr in 1:18 scale, and as I also have three versions of the car in 1;43rd (Le Mans, Mille Miglia and Dundrod and the Targa car is 004, the MM/ Dundrod car) I had not bothered to collect it, although I have seen it. I've seen and been tempted by the Bang Ferrari but not yet steeled myself to acquire it.

[Jager]

A quick search of the "Grand Prix Models" database turned up quite a few references. Ignoring the expensive handbuilts and kits, it highlighted a couple of cheaper readybuilt models that weren't on your list :

You may be interested in this Pinko model of the 1956 Le Mans Aston Martin :



Pinko have also done this unusual Lister Jaguar from Sebring in 1959 :



Spark have done this Lotus 19 from Karlskoga :



Finally, would your collection be completed without one of these for only GBP 12.35 :

[anyat]

Hi. I have just spotted a Spark Lotus 19 Karlsloga version on Ebay with a buy it now of 16.99 or near that, the postage is £9 odd as its from Hong Kong. I can vouch for this seller as I have bought from him a lot. he wont admit anything but I think he must buy factory over production as they are all brand new but come usually without display case. i THINK IT FINISHES TONIGHT SO I HOPE YOU GET THIS MESSAGE IN TIME

[RCH]

Hi. I have just spotted a Spark Lotus 19 Karlsloga version on Ebay with a buy it now of 16.99 or near that, the postage is £9 odd as its from Hong Kong. I can vouch for this seller as I have bought from him a lot. he wont admit anything but I think he must buy factory over production as they are all brand new but come usually without display case. i THINK IT FINISHES TONIGHT SO I HOPE YOU GET THIS MESSAGE IN TIME

Interesting, considering the proportion of Spark models I get to what I order I would have thought there was no such thing as over production. From what you say I would think they are returned stock due to damaged packaging.

[D-Type]

For affordable models, I always find the bigger toyfairs a good bet:

I have a Bang model of the Ferrari 250 GT that SCM shared with Graham Hill at Le Mans in 1961 and the Nurburgring Tipo 61, both of which which I got at toy fair for £10-£20. I also have a Porsche 550 which cost me £3 . I have seen the 1959 Le Mans Aston Martin DBR1 (by IXO I think). I think Oxford Diecast produced a SCM version of the Jaguar Mk V11 - and maybe a Mk 2 as well. The Maserati Eldorado was in Poundland a couple of years ago as one of a series of Maseratis so it now turns up at the toyfairs for under a fiver. The Dinky Frazer Nash is the same casting as their prewar BMW 328 and a well worn one is affordable. So it's worth looking about.

And if you go to Goodwood take the time to have a look at Peter Sholto's stall - you never know what he might have!

Edited by D-Type, 18 August 2010 - 23:11.

[Mal9444]

And while on the general subject of Moss - check this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/...mMakeTrack=true

I'm fairly certain it is not Dundrod. Moss's number in 1951 (as in 1950 and again in 1952) was 7. (Supplementary - did he, as the previous year's winner, get to chose the number and thus go for 7? In 1954 - there was no TT in 1953 - he was # 20 in a D-type, and in 1955 #10 in the SLR.)

Also, I never heard of or saw fencing like that in use anywhere at Dundrod.

So where would the photo have been taken?

I have sent the question to the eBay seller.

Edited by Mal9444, 14 November 2010 - 21:58.

[Tony Lethbridge]

And while on the general subject of Moss - check this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/...mMakeTrack=true

I'm fairly certain it is bot Dundrod. Moss's number in 1951 (as in 1950 and again in 1952) was 7. (Supplementary - did he, as the previous year's winner, get to chose the number and thus go for 7? In 1954 - there was no TT in 1953 - he was # 20 in a D-type, and in 1955 #10 in the SLR.)

Also, I never heard of or saw fencing like that in use anywhere at Dundrod.

So where would the photo have been taken?

I have sent the question to the eBay seller.

I think its Le Mans 1951. I've just checked Whyte and Stirling is pictured there in No.22

[Tim Murray]

I think its Le Mans 1951. I've just checked Whyte and Stirling is pictured there in No.22

Agreed. The photo I've just looked at (in the Profile Publication on the C-type) shows Moss in car 22 at Le Mans 1951. The car has a dent below the left-hand headlight, and an additional light behind the grille. Both these can be seen in the eBay photo.

Edit: If you have access to the Robert Edwards biography of Moss, what appears to be the same photo (slightly cropped) appears on page 77, captioned as Le Mans 1951.

Edited by Tim Murray, 19 August 2010 - 20:16.

[Mal9444]

Agreed. The photo I've just looked at (in the Profile Publication on the C-type) shows Moss in car 22 at Le Mans 1951. The car has a dent below the left-hand headlight, and an additional light behind the grille. Both these can be seen in the eBay photo.

Edit: If you have access to the Robert Edwards biography of Moss, what appears to be the same photo (slightly cropped) appears on page 77, captioned as Le Mans 1951.

I do and you are quite right.

It will be interesting to see if Classic Car Photos a) answer my question and b) alter their eBay description.

[Tony Lethbridge]

I was talking to a collector friend the other evening about the Sir Stirling collection at the Haynes museum, and he has seen it and recommends a visit. We are planning to go at the end of September. He also sent me a photocopy of an article about the collection which appeared in the February 2009 issue of Octane magazine.

The collection belonged to the late Stuart Leake who displayed it at the Historic Motorshow at Stoneleigh where it was seen by Sir Stirling. Among the the models pictured in the article is the winning 300SLR for the 1955 Dundrod TT complete damaged bodywork.

[Mal9444]

The collection belonged to the late Stuart Leake who displayed it at the Historic Motorshow at Stoneleigh where it was seen by Sir Stirling. Among the the models pictured in the article is the winning 300SLR for the 1955 Dundrod TT complete damaged bodywork.

I suppose it was a bit self-conceited to think that I would be the first Moss-fan/ Dundrod geek to think of that.

[Mal9444]

The collection belonged to the late Stuart Leake who displayed it at the Historic Motorshow at Stoneleigh where it was seen by Sir Stirling. Among the the models pictured in the article is the winning 300SLR for the 1955 Dundrod TT complete damaged bodywork.

I suppose it was a bit self-conceited to think that I would be the first Moss-fan/ Dundrod geek to think of that.

[Tony Lethbridge]

I suppose it was a bit self-conceited to think that I would be the first Moss-fan/ Dundrod geek to think of that.

Don't worry. Some of us thought we were the only ones with a sharknose Ferrari in Rob Walker colours carrying the number 7.

[Mal9444]

Don't worry. Some of us thought we were the only ones with a sharknose Ferrari in Rob Walker colours carrying the number 7.

Ah, the things that might have been...

[Tim Murray]

It will be interesting to see if Classic Car Photos a) answer my question and b) alter their eBay description.

Did you ever get any feedback, Malcolm? I see they've relisted the photo, still describing it as taken at Dundrod:

http://cgi.ebay.com/...em=370435395255

[Mal9444]

Did you ever get any feedback, Malcolm? I see they've relisted the photo, still describing it as taken at Dundrod:

http://cgi.ebay.com/...em=370435395255

I had no reply to my first message, and saw that no one had bought the photo. When it was relisted I emailed to them again, pointing out it was Le Mans, not Dundrod, and asking why they insisted on continuing to misrepresent the picture.

I immediately rceived the reply 'Because my father took this photograph.'

I replied:
'Thank you for your reply - but I assure you that your father did not take this picture at Dundrod: he (or someone else) took the picture at Le Mans, I believe in 1952. There is no watlle fencing at Dundrod, but there is at Le Mans. In 1952 Moss drove this C-type at Le Mans with the race number 22, and retired with a broken oil pipe. There was no RAC TT in 1952. Moss drove a different C-type at Dundrod in 1953 with the race number 7, but stopped with a broken oil pipe short of the finish line and when Peter Collins in the Aston Martin DB3 crossed the finish line to win Moss pushed the C-type across to be classed as a finisher. Moss's cars at Dundrod were: 1950 Jaguar XK120 #7 - 1st; 1951 Jaguar XK120C # 7 - 1st; 1953 Jaguar XK120C #7 - oil problem, pushed across; 1954 Jaguar XK120D # 20 - oil problem, pushed across to be classified 8th; 1955 Mercedes-Benz 300slr #10 - 1st.

I hope this helps you correctly caption the picture.'

... which under the circs I felt was fairly reasonable and helpful.

Evidently the seller did not because I have not had a reply and the picture is still last time I looked) offerred for sale with the incorreect caption.

[Tim Murray]

It's definitely not Le Mans 1952. At this race Stirling drove the ill-fated 'droop-snoot' C-Type number 17. I'm happy with our earlier conclusion of Le Mans 1951 - the dent below the l/h headlight confirming it for me. It would be interesting to learn, if the seller's father did take the photo, how it came to be in the Robert Edwards biography.

[raceannouncer2003]

Le Mans, I believe in 1952. There is no watlle fencing at Dundrod, but there is at Le Mans. In 1952 Moss drove this C-type at Le Mans with the race number 22, and retired with a broken oil pipe.

1951

Vince H.

[Mal9444]

It's definitely not Le Mans 1952. At this race Stirling drove the ill-fated 'droop-snoot' C-Type number 17. I'm happy with our earlier conclusion of Le Mans 1951 - the dent below the l/h headlight confirming it for me. It would be interesting to learn, if the seller's father did take the photo, how it came to be in the Robert Edwards biography.

Thanks Tim and Vince - in my defence I was writing from memory (and thought the long-nose C was '53 - again from that ever-fallible memory). Checking in both Robert's book and Doug's My Cars My Career the car is XKC 002, which is indeed the car Moss later used to win at Dundrod in '51.

Edited by Mal9444, 23 September 2010 - 18:41.

[Mal9444]

http://cgi.ebay.co.u...=item4151cb5e93

A bit beyond my price range, I'm afraid - but highly desirable.

I've asked them if it is available as a kit.

[RCH]

I've asked them if it is available as a kit.

Yes it will be, probably around 40 quid.

[D-Type]

http://cgi.ebay.co.u...=item4151cb5e93

A bit beyond my price range, I'm afraid - but highly desirable.

I've asked them if it is available as a kit.

Grand Prix Models have the kit in stock at £46.95

Edited by D-Type, 02 October 2010 - 21:33.

[Barry Boor]

A couple of points; the B.R.M in British Racing Partnership pale green is in the pipeline but I have recently obtained some proper wheels for it, rather than the plain silver ones on the Corgi model. I haven't forgotten, Mal.

Also, I have a Brumm Cooper T.53 that I have re-painted in Rob Walker colours. Apparently Stirling practised it at Zandvoort in 1961 but raced the Lotus.

Talking of Lotuses, I also managed to grab a metal kit of a Lotus 18 recently that someone has started to build into Stirling's Monaco car - WITH side panels. The trouble with this one is that it purports to be 43rd scale but is actually a bit on the large side. One of these fine days I'll get on and build it as I will the other 9 or 10 kits I have laying around the place.

[Mal9444]

Well - since no one else would buy it for me for Christmas, I bought it myself for the somewhat (to me) eye-watering sum of £99.00. For a chap who likes to pay not more than £10 or £15 for a model this was a bit of a leap. But of course, it is in a different class and category altogether from yer average 1/43rd-scale.

I speak of the SMTS Moss Lake Garda 500cc Cooper by SMTS. I tried and tried to get a kit, at around £41.00 - but anytime I contacted them they always seemed to be out of stock. So eventually I gave up and bought a built-kit.

Of course, it is vastly superior to anything I with so many thumbs could ever achieve, much as I like SMTS kits.

So here it is, in all its glory, about to set a new lap time for my raised bed...








... and before I get a lecture on how much per hopur an honest model-maker is worth, I know.

I am very pleased with it.

Edited by Mal9444, 17 January 2011 - 16:27.

[D-Type]

Well - since no one else would buy it for me for Christmas, I bought it myself for the somewhat (to me) eye-watering sum of £99.00. For a chap who likes to pay not more than £10 or £15 for a model this was a bit of a leap. But of course, it is in a different class and category altogether from yer average 1/43rd-scale.

I speak of the SMTS Moss Lake Garda 500cc Cooper by SMTS. I tried and tried to get a kit, at around £41.00 - but anytime I contacted them they always seemed to be out of stock. So eventually I gave up and bought a built-kit.

Of course, it is vastly superior to anything I with so many thumbs could ever achieve, much as I like SMTS kits.

So here it is, in all its glory, about to set a new lap time for my raised bed...








... and before I get a lecture on how much per hour an honest model-maker is worth, I know.

I am very pleased with it.

At Garda surely it had a 1000cc JAP engine? [/pedant mode]
Don't worry they're externally identical except possibly for the exhaust and SMTS will have got it right

It looks gorgeous! I'm jealous.

Like you built models are beyond my budget, but I may succumb for the last few Champions to complete my set - drivers (Brabham 1966, Fittipaldi 1974) and manufacturers (Williams 1981, Ferrari 1983). Does anyone know if these were ever done as diecasts?

Barry, how true to scale are the Corgi BRM and Vanwall?

[Barry Boor]

Interesting question, Duncan.

It goes like this; according to statistics I have found on the web the BRM wheelbase was 2286 mm. The Corgi model has a wheelbase of 52.5 mm, so clearly MUCH smaller. (Sorry - I'm being silly!) 52.5 mm translates to 2257 mm. In order to match the real car the model actually needs a wheelbase of 53.2 mm - approximately. So you see, it's actually pretty close.

The Corgi Vanwall is a different matter. It has a wheelbase of 50 mm - 2150 in real terms. The real car had a 2292 wheelbase so the model is over 3 mm too small.

This can be seen by comparing it to the Brumm Vanwall. Brumm are not noted for supreme accuracy but their model's wheelbase is 53 mm - only 0.3 less than it should be to match the real car.

I've never been keen on the Corgi Vanwall but I do love their BRM.

[Mal9444]

At Garda surely it had a 1000cc JAP engine? [/pedant mode]
Don't worry they're externally identical except possibly for the exhaust and SMTS will have got it right

It looks gorgeous! I'm jealous.

Duncan you are quite right about the 1,000cc engine. But now I raise a query on the car itself. Facing page 68 of the (and my) first Moss book, the one by Robert Raymond published in 1953, there are photographs of the Lake Garda car and the Monacco car - and they are clearly different vehicles.

The lower photograph is my model: race no 46, and the upper picture of the Lake Garda car, race number 22. The Lake Garda car is a different colour, has no elephant-ear intakes, no panier tanks and has an exhaust pipe emerging from the front end of the engine compartment just behind the driver's right elbow.

The SMTS box describes the model as "Cooper 500 Stirling Moss Monacco Lake Garda".

The above book seems clearly to say that the same car, with different engines, was used at both venues: so does the book have the wrong photo?

I'll ask around.

[RCH]

http://img267.images...da1resized.jpg/

http://img220.images...da2resized.jpg/

http://img515.images...co1resized.jpg/

http://img209.images...co2resized.jpg/


Above you should find some pictures of the SMTS Cooper in both Lake Garda and Monaco forms. Hope this helps. SMTS would use the same kit for both, including the parts to make up for either version. Afraid the colour of the photos says more about my photography than the actual model colour!

Edited by RCH, 25 January 2011 - 13:17.

[Tim Murray]

Duncan you are quite right about the 1,000cc engine. But now I raise a query on the car itself. Facing page 68 of the (and my) first Moss book, the one by Robert Raymond published in 1953, there are photographs of the Lake Garda car and the Monacco car - and they are clearly different vehicles.

The lower photograph is my model: race no 46, and the upper picture of the Lake Garda car, race number 22. The Lake Garda car is a different colour, has no elephant-ear intakes, no panier tanks and has an exhaust pipe emerging from the front end of the engine compartment just behind the driver's right elbow.

The SMTS box describes the model as "Cooper 500 Stirling Moss Monacco Lake Garda".

The above book seems clearly to say that the same car, with different engines, was used at both venues: so does the book have the wrong photo?

I'll ask around.

I think the Robert Raymond book is wrong. In My Cars, My Career (and in DCN's Cooper Cars) there's a photo of Stirling standing behind his car at Lake Garda, which has all the trimmings attached (pannier tanks, elephant's ears etc) and is wearing #46. This Cooper was a Mk III. The car he used at Monaco in 1950 was a Mk IV.

[D-Type]

Oh dear - I've done it now! Open can on the floor - worms all over the place!

Malcolm, don't worry too much. You will turn out to have one or the other. Unlike Brumm, SMTS will have modelled whatever they modelled accurately (or as accurately as SCM's memory and contemporary photos allow). It looks as though you have ended up with the Lake Garda car, which I would rate it as the more significant

Edited by D-Type, 25 January 2011 - 17:46.

[Mal9444]

Oh dear - I've done it now! Open can on the floor - worms all over the place!

Malcolm, don't worry too much. You will turn out to have one or the other. Unlike Brumm, SMTS will have modelled whatever they modelled accurately (or as accurately as SCM's memory and contemporary photos allow). It looks as though you have ended up with the Lake Garda car, which I would rate it as the more significant

Curiouser and curiouser. Thanks to everyone. If the filenames on RCH's pictures are correct, I have the Lake Garda car - but take a look here:
http://cgi.ebay.co.u...3-/160509403223

That definitely shows SMTS selling the other one as the Lake Garda car - and of course this is the car shown in the book as the Lake Garda car. Perhaps that is where SMTS draw their authority for saying which car is which.

Moss confirms that in Monaco he used a Mk 4 Cooper - but I'm afraid I do not have Doug's book nor do I know my Coopers well enough to tell a Mk 4 from anything else.

I suppose, given the fallability of caption writers and book editors, the definitive answer by now can be found only in the race programmes for either event, to check the race numbers.

[Tim Murray]

Sorry, Malcolm, but in my mind there is absolutely no doubt that the Lake Garda car was #46. It is shown as such on the entry list for the Lake Garda race, as published in the relevant Sheldon Black Book, and, as stated earlier, in photos in My Cars, My Career and Cooper Cars. There would have been no need for any additional tankage for the Monaco race as the final of this event was run over 16 laps, or 31.6 miles By contrast, the final of the Lake Garda race was 101.74 miles. I don't have access to the Robert Raymond book so can't check, but it does sound as if he got his captions muddled.

[Mal9444]

Sorry, Malcolm, but in my mind there is absolutely no doubt that the Lake Garda car was #46. It is shown as such on the entry list for the Lake Garda race, as published in the relevant Sheldon Black Book, and, as stated earlier, in photos in My Cars, My Career and Cooper Cars. There would have been no need for any additional tankage for the Monaco race as the final of this event was run over 16 laps, or 31.6 miles By contrast, the final of the Lake Garda race was 101.74 miles. I don't have access to the Robert Raymond book so can't check, but it does sound as if he got his captions muddled.

Tim - please do not apologise. I am delighted to have your assistance, along with that of Duncan and RCH. I am also delighted to have my little model.

Thanks to all.

[RCH]

As Tim says the Lake Garda car would have needed greater tankage, hence the pannier tanks. The two I sold were built from kits by a professional model maker, I no longer have the instructions but they would have detailed which of the unique parts were for which version. You should be able to make out the labels he has applied to the baseplates. He is out on his dates I think but got the races right.

Looking at the Ebay item you show it looks as though the box has been ticked for "built" as opposed to kit but whether it is not Monaco or Garda has not been crossed out as SMTS intended. Maybe the seller is under the impression the cars were the same?

On closer inspection the box is ticked Monaco... they used to cross out the wrong one in my day. I suspect the seller has used the wrong photo.

Edited by RCH, 26 January 2011 - 13:35.

[Mal9444]

Thanks to everyone. I think we now all agree that I have the Lake Garda car, that it is a Cooper MkIII T9 with Moss-inspired additions, such as the panier tanks and the bolstered seat and that Moss raced it with both a 500cc JAP and a 1,000cc JAP.

And that either the captions in the Robert Raymond book or the photos themselves have been put in the wrong place. Looking again at those photos it is now quite plain that the one that claims to be "Moss on the Cooper at Lake Garda. 1950" is taken at Monaco (I'm quite sure that if I could find a way of scanning and posting the photo any number on TNF, starting with a certain Mr B Boor, could tell us exactly where at Monaco) and the one that says "Moss on the Cooper on his way to win the 500cc race at Monaco. 1950" is not taken at Monaco.

And in fairness to SMTS from whom I bought the model, although the description says STIRLING MOSS COOPER 500 the box label is clearly ticked Lake Garda.

Now to start saving for the Mk 4

Edited by Mal9444, 26 January 2011 - 16:44.

[robjohn]

I'd be grateful for sound information on the colour of the early works D-types that Moss and others drove in 1954, particularly in the TT at Dundrod. The only photos I have or can find are black and white (grey, really). Written sources say or take it for granted that they were very dark green. John Baxter's Motor Racing Team Colours & Markings, for example, lumps all works C and D-types from 1951-57 as a very dark BRG. However, two later paintings depict them as closer to mid-greens, something like a modern Sherwood green. I don't know how good the artists' sources were.
I saw the 1954 TT as a 14-year-old but can't really remember such details. Now I'm building or rebuilding a few models of Ulster TT cars and would like to get them right.
Was the 1951 C-type the very dark green, almost black?
And if I may stray from Moss, the Ferrari that Bobby Baird raced in the 1951 TT appears in another painting as a fairly rich red, darker than the usual Ferrari colour, almost maroon, at least on-line. This was the Frenchman Jean Lucas's car, not Baird's own Ferrari. Any ideas or, better still, facts?
Robin B

Edited by robjohn, 13 February 2011 - 10:04.

[Mal9444]

I'd be grateful for sound information on the colour of the early works D-types that Moss and others drove in 1954, particularly in the TT at Dundrod. The only photos I have or can find are black and white (grey, really). Written sources treat them as very dark green. John Baxter's Motor Racing Team Colours & Markings, for example, lumps all works C and D-types from 1951-57 as a very dark BRG. However, two later paintings depict them as closer to mid-greens, something like a modern Sherwood green. I don't know how good the artists' sources were.
I saw the 1954 TT as a 14-year-old but can't really remember such details. Now I'm building or rebuilding a few models of Ulster TT cars and would like to get them right.
Was the 1951 C-type the very dark green, almost black?
And if I may stray from Moss, the Ferrari that Bobby Baird raced in the 1951 TT appears in another painting as a fairly rich red, darker than the usual Ferrari colour, almost maroon, at least on-line. This was the Frenchman Jean Lucas's car, not Baird's own Ferrari. Any ideas or, better still, facts?
Robin B

To answer the 1954 question: I too was there and do remember vividly (albeit
I was only 10 ) the Moss car, the first sighting with my own eyes of The Hero. For many years I thought those D-types were black - only later did I learn that they were very dark green. Since you'll know of which I speak: think of an RUC uniform of the time. The Brumm D-type models are often very accurate in colour - as is the so-called Hawthorn-Bueb D-type that regularly appears at the Goodwood Revival. Martyn Wainwright's 1950s Motorsport in Colour has a picture of Moss in the D-type at the hairpin (in colour, natch) and the car looks so black as to be almost blue, if you follow me.

Nearly all D-type 1:43rds you can buy are long-nose cars and of course the 1954 cars were short-nose. SMTS do (or did) a short-nose kit of OKV 3 (the reg number of the D-type Moss drove, although it was a temproary transfer of that number to a one-off 2.5 litre-engined car, not the 'regular' OKV 3). I have built this and numbered it 20, for Moss at the '54 TT although that is not the configuration in which SMTS sell it.

The C-type colours I can be less sure about, not having seen the cars 'in the flesh' in period. Barry Boor and I have corresponded on the subject and I believe the 1951 car to have been mid-green and the '53 car to have been dark green.

I have seen quite a few paintings of cars at Dundrod and in many the colours are, simply, wrong. I would not trust any painting without independently checking the colour. Rarely are the paintings contemporary and the artists, like we, have to rely on photos either black-and-white or colour.

Of the cars I have in my modest collection in addition to the Moss cars (which include his 1950 winning XK120, a further 13 are non-Moss Dundrod TT cars, ranging from such obscure vehicles as Ian Titterington's 1955 TR2 to Fango's '54 Lancia, the DB Panhards of '54 and '55, Hawthorn '54 Ferrari and '55 D-type, Collins DB3S (winner '53), the Bonier/Lohens Maserati A6GCS of '54 (beautifully rendered in pale blue for me by B.Boor) and even Bob Berry's short-lived, short-nose, finless D-type. Of course, since no manufacturer other than SMTS in kit has to my knowledge ever produced a Dundrod car, all the foregoing are re-works of the same car produced for some other race or driver or both.

Do we feel a new thread coming on?

Edited by Mal9444, 13 February 2011 - 10:38.

[RCH]

I think that most of the evidence seems to point to the works D Types being a very dark green. However Martin Morris's car (which I think was one of the first D Types) raced in the '70s/'80s in a much lighter green. Don't have the material on hand at present to check this out. When I bought my business, Model Garage, the stock included a large batch of short nose D Type resin models of the '54 Dundrod car, made by a manufacturer I have never heard of before or since. That was 18 years ago I sold the last one last year.

[Mal9444]

I sold the last one last year.

How very annoying...

[robjohn]

Thanks, gentlemen, for your information. Malcolm's comparison with the RUC uniform is a good one.
I did realise there could be artistic licence in the paintings I mentioned, and the more vivid greens perhaps seemed more appealing to the artists than the near-black. Still, use of the BRG term over the years hasn't always been helpful, nor can modern photos of such cars later in their lives be relied on for what they were in their youth.
And as several of you have been saying earlier, proprietary models are not always 100% accurate. I have two models of the 1953 Le Mans-winning C-type in distinctly different dark greens, and on one the inner aero screen is the wrong way round.
The link Malcolm gave in a 2006 thread on OKV3 does work now. Try http://www.motorspor...arpages/146.htm or go to the home page for others.
Malcolm mentioned the Bob Berry finless D-type of the 1955 race. The narrative in John Moore's little TT book describes it as an Ecurie Ecosse car, but it was entered by Jack Broadhead. From other sources it appears to have been one of the 1954 cars, XKC403 = OKV2. Why finless?
There are potential early-1950s TT cars in the Ixo and Metro 1:43 diecast ranges, though I have just two: an Ixo C-type in 1953 Le Mans livery and a Metro 1954 A6GCS Maserati with (I think) Mille Miglia numbering. Most of my cars are 1:32 plastic models, including slotcars, not really for running but because I like the size and the potential for a little reworking. The Baird Ferrari will come from an old Revell static kit and the Merc 300SLR and most of the Jaguars from slotcars. I have a resin Kieft-Bristol and its creator plans to do a Jupiter.
Another little quirk for Moss modellers: the way his helmet was raked back in his early years.
Finally, greetings to Malcolm as a (presumably) compatriot, contemporary and fellow Dundrod-inspired enthusiast. I was lucky enough to see the Ulster Trophy races too, with Farina in an Alfa 159, Bira, the Lago-Talbots, 4CLTs, BRMs, Thinwall Specials, etc. Great days.
Robin

Edited by robjohn, 14 February 2011 - 10:56.