100 replies to this topic

[jimjimjeroo]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...canada-10978569

RIP

[johnmhinds]

Sounds like bad stewarding if they were allowed to stand anywhere they wanted to.

And running that kind of race at night is just crazy.

Edited by johnmhinds, 15 August 2010 - 11:33.

[Clatter]

Sounds like bad stewarding if they were allowed to stand anywhere they wanted to.

No different to many rally stages.

[sKunk]

WRC will cancel a stage of spectator safety is questionable.

[Grenada]

Dreadful. I suppose this is what can happen without all the safety procedures in on-track racing.

[saudoso]

Sad thing to happen.

But blaming the race driver when you are in the middle of the desert watching a night race is precious. I bet they will sue the driver's ass also.

[threep]

Looking at some of the videos on Youtube from last year it looked like an accident waiting to happen. Unlike rally stages the "course" seems less defined. And when you add in all the dust and the darkness, and what appears on the face of it to be an absence of any marshalling, any accident in the vicinity of spectators is likely to be very serious.

The US is a curious mix of litigiousness and individual freedom, there are probably no marshals because to provide any would be an invitation to sue should anything go wrong. So the spectators were free to stand where they wanted and at their own risk. Still, my condolences to their families none the less.

[krapmeister]

Sad thing to happen.

But blaming the race driver when you are in the middle of the desert watching a night race is precious. I bet they will sue the driver's ass also.

Don't worry - someone will be sueing someone that is for certain...

[chrisblades85]

RIP. No body deserves to die while watching a sport they love.

[Jimisgod]

Rallying at night sounds suicidal, and now homicidal if the organisers are found to be negligent. I was under the belief that WRC scanned the stage and halted (with the help of the local authorities) people from going in the most dangerous areas (outside fast turns etc.)

R.I.P however the people should have known a bit better that to stand too close. Reminds me of that drag racing funny car that crashed in the Mid West a few years back. Is the US less stringent on spectator safety?

[cheapracer]

RIP. No body deserves to die while watching a sport they love.

With no disrespect meant to those involved as the circumstances are unclear, you may want to visit this website for other incidents ...

http://www.darwinawards.com/

[saudoso]

With no disrespect meant to those involved as the circumstances are unclear, you may want to visit this website for other incidents ...

http://www.darwinawards.com/

The JATO tale is the best ever...

[whitewaterMkII]

Rallying at night sounds suicidal, and now homicidal if the organisers are found to be negligent.

It wasn't rallying, it was off road racing, which in almost all their races, has laps that are run at night. Temperatures in the area the race was held are at this time of year in the 100 degree plus range which I imagine determined how much of this race was run after dark. Their biggest race on the schedule is the Baja 1000, which much of is run at night. Seeing as this race was four 50 mile laps I don't think anyone could expect the organizers to control access to all of the course.
Theses type of accidents in off road racing are not as uncommon as one might think, the Baja 1000 in particular has had a number of these incidents, especially since some spectators actually create hazadous areas for the race vehicles for their own enjoyment. I don't know if that was case in this incident, but take a look at some you tube vids of off road racing and you will definitely see a lot of spectators watching from extremely stupid positions.
Lucerne Valley is not all that far from me, maybe an hour from my door, and as I have a lot of friends that either attend or participate, I hope no one I know was involved. If I get more details from anyone I'll post 'em.
My sympathy to all who either lost friends or were in any way involved.

[billm99uk]

Sad thing to happen.

But blaming the race driver when you are in the middle of the desert watching a night race is precious. I bet they will sue the driver's ass also.

And he'll probably countersue the crowd for throwing rocks at him

[Mandzipop]

RIP to those who lost their lives.

[pingu666]

RIP
the beauty of these events is the freedom you have to stand and watch from where you want, but its pretty obivous your taking a risk if your close to the course
there gnarly events, but thats how they should be

[FlatOverCrest]

Unfortunately...this is one of the biggest reasons why the US simply is not ready to host a WRC round. Their idea of 'Off-road' racing and rallying is completely different. Rallying at night in Europe and other parts of the world is a perfectly safe thing and in fact the most spectacular form of rally driving you can see. The US 'Rally' Championship is gaining momentum... but it still has a long way to go, to educate the populace about where to stand...but even the rally championship is streets ahead of this 'Offroad Racing'.

This 'Off-road racing' or more akin to 'Dune Buggy racing' has about as much to do with Rallying as the Gumball Rally does...

Unfortunately, spectators in the US for both off-road and rallying, tend to think its their 'right' to stand whre they like, in fact even during Rally New York, a couple of residents that lived on stage routes decided they would leave their house while the stage was 'Live' despite being told they couldnt and that they agreed they would not go onto the road. The net result was a Subaru Impreza flying over a crest to be faced with a local in their car coming toward them and I understand the cars missed by a matter of inches.

When I was in the States I went to a couple of these races to see what it was like. Lots of converted pick-up's, buggies, beatles, that sort of thing...and their idea of 'safety' was shall we say... a little antiquated!! Sure the sport is fast and loud, with dirt flying everywhere... but the fan base are ...how shall we say...not the sharpest knives in the drawer! Unfortunately....it is incidents like this..where the actions of stupid people standing in stupid places, gives ammunition to the sandalistas looking to ban motorsport for being too dangerous...

Unfortunately..in California, there are many MANY people quite anti-motorsport and many of these people against are also in the legal profession and as another poster commented above... the law suits will be flying...

It's a great shame when people are killed and condolences to their families... but if the cars were able to reach them when having an accident, then they were simply stood too close and unfortunately...sometimes marshals can only to do so much to tell people where is safe and where is not to stand...often it simply requires some common sense as to where to stand!

[Slowinfastout]

There's a vid on CNN (don't actually see anything you wouldn't want to see, don't worry)...

Can't really blame the driver... they're racing through a tunnel of people '80s Group B rally style..

At some point I think the spectators should be responsible for their own actions and using their heads would be a good idea... otherwise we end up having silly laws and having stuff banned because of a minority of fools, very typical.

RIP anyway..

[whitewaterMkII]

gee, thanks, FOC.
Any other way you can think of to denigrate the US, California, racefans, or off road racing?
Don't look now, but your arrogance is showing...

[Slowinfastout]

Oh it wasn't really at night as in pitch-dark...

http://www.cnn.com/2...dex.html?hpt=C1

[billm99uk]

gee, thanks, FOC.
Any other way you can think of to denigrate the US, California, racefans, or off road racing?
Don't look now, but your arrogance is showing...

If you think that's rude, you should see some of the comments on slowinfastout's CNN thread

[whitewaterMkII]

If you think that's rude, you should see some of the comments on slowinfastout's CNN thread

No thanks, that was quite enough for someone who's first job in racing back in 1975 was in an off road race shop...

[ron_dennis]

gee, thanks, FOC.
Any other way you can think of to denigrate the US, California, racefans, or off road racing?
Don't look now, but your arrogance is showing...

The idiots who attacked the driver aside, don't you know it's a European pass-time to knock the yanks? It's an old Europe thing, but still better than the hobby practiced in new Middle East.

I've seen crazy things with spectators in Britain too, I was at Kielder people often put themselves in positions where they risked their lives for a good view.


http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Neil_Horan

[whitewaterMkII]

The idiots who attacked the driver aside, don't you know it's a European pass-time to knock the yanks?

No doubt, but why?
It just makes them seem dumber than a bag of rocks.

[billm99uk]

If you think that's rude, you should see some of the comments on slowinfastout's CNN thread

My favorite? "...and the driver was going way too fast"

It's a RACE madam, y'know

[Jambo]

I attend a lot of road racing events here in Northern Ireland and there is always the warning that motorsport is dangerous. Sadly at events like these this can prove to be the case. Am very sorry for the 8 people that have been killed but think it is wrong for the driver to be treated as such.

Road racing here has moved on a lot, many viewing spots that I would have stood in in the past are now prohibited and maybe sports like these have to "grow up" in the same way.

Unfortunately even then things cannot always be safe, at the Ulster Grand Prix yesterday there was an incident involving two spectators who were hit by debris and they, along with the rider are currently in hospital.

This post seems rather disjointed to me but my basic points are spectators have to be responsible themselves to some degree but even then bad things can and do happen.

[johnmhinds]

Oh it wasn't really at night as in pitch-dark...

http://www.cnn.com/2...dex.html?hpt=C1

Looks like the cars were running too close together.
The faster car came up to the slow car and had nowhere to go because the crowd was stood right next to the track.

And you can see them all turn their backs to the oncoming cars every time some passes which is a big no no in rallying.

Crazy that the drivers even wanted to race under such conditions. There is no way i'd race with guys with pickup trucks and beer stood at the side of the track.

Edited by johnmhinds, 15 August 2010 - 17:29.

[Slowinfastout]

It wasn't rallying..

Basically, it looks like the safety aspect was entirely up to the spectators themselves, something I don't have a problem with, but that's a personal thing.

The drivers are there to race, and they'll do mistakes. It's part of the game.

Now if you wanna stand where the likelihood of a mistake is the greatest, without any protection, it's your call to make.

It's like crossing a road without looking left and right, mommy told you not to do that, didn't she?

You can't build a society entirely based on stupidity, we'd need to ban forks and maybe even spoons..

[johnmhinds]

You can't blame the spectators and let the drivers get away with it scott free though.
They are just as stupid as the fans for knowing all the risks and then still racing on a track with no marshalling.

There is no way in hell i'd race somewhere with people sitting on camping chairs drinking beer right next to the track.

If you aren't going to go to the trouble of defining a track and then fencing off the spectators to minimise the risks you know about then you shouldn't be racing.

[Arska]

If you aren't going to go to the trouble of defining a track and then fencing off the spectators to minimise the risks you know about then you shouldn't be racing.

Correct, the race administrators didn't take good care of keeping the spectators away from the most dangerous spots. In any case, don't blame the driver for making a mistake while racing.

[whitewaterMkII]

Correct, the race administrators didn't take good care of keeping the spectators away from the most dangerous spots. In any case, don't blame the driver for making a mistake while racing.

I'd say that about 95% of spectator injuries are due to them being in a stupid place to watch a race from.

[Arska]

I'd say that about 95% of spectator injuries are due to them being in a stupid place to watch a race from.

I wouldn't go that far. Remember Le Mans 1955, 80+ dead? Surely nobody in those times considered the deceased spectators to be in a dangerous spot. Even now most people would consider those spectators to be far enough from the track, I bet. Contrast that to this latest incident in USA. Just about anyone with a functional brain can see from the video that the spectators are far too close to the track for any kind of comfort.

[FlatOverCrest]

gee, thanks, FOC.
Any other way you can think of to denigrate the US, California, racefans, or off road racing?
Don't look now, but your arrogance is showing...

Speaking the truth is arrogance? Unlike many on this side of the pond, I have actually been to some of these races and comparing them to a National european rally or even a european or World Championship event..then I am sorry....but the organisation is frankly shocking.... and the stupidity of 'Some' and you will note I did not say 'ALL' in my first post... then 'some' are incredibly stupid and almot get what they deserve. Yes there are 'some' equally stupid in Europe... but the attitude I persoanlly witnessed was of 'some' people saying to marshalls while drinking a beer ... "Yeah we will be fine...dont worry...we have been watching this for years.." while then continuing to stand on what was basically the outside and exit of a corner!!

Seriously....who the hell sits next to a motorsport course in a damn deckchair drinking beer with not form of barrier between them and the cars? Beyond the height of lunacy. You can make that a 'Dont attack the racefans or the US' insult all you like..but stupidity..is still stupidity...no matter what your nationality.

As to the other observations... I can merely compare european motorsport safety standards to those 'which I saw'. I am sorry again if that is uncomfortable for you, but half the cars I saw would not be allowed within 10 miles of even the most basic grass track racing circuit here in the UK...let alone a national rally.

So dont look now...but the safety observations sting, because they are the truth... if you dont like that, well then fine....its not arrogance but personal opinion formed on observations seen at first hand. You may have produced the safest Off-road car in the United States since 1975 to the highest of standards...unfortunately... I didnt see you...or any vehicle even vaguely close to that at the couple of events I saw in California and I lived there for 4 years...

[whitewaterMkII]

I wouldn't go that far. Remember Le Mans 1955, 80+ dead? Surely nobody in those times considered the deceased spectators to be in a dangerous spot. Even now most people would consider those spectators to be far enough from the track, I bet. Contrast that to this latest incident in USA. Just about anyone with a functional brain can see from the video that the spectators are far too close to the track for any kind of comfort.

I should hace said 'recent'.
Enclosed circuit spectator injuries are rare, in relation to attendance numbers. The last fatality at at an enclosed track I can remember was when a wheel got off an indy car at Charlotte, I believe.

[whitewaterMkII]

Speaking the truth is arrogance? Unlike many on this side of the pond, I have actually been to some of these races and comparing them to a National european rally or even a european or World Championship event..then I am sorry....but the organisation is frankly shocking.... and the stupidity of 'Some' and you will note I did not say 'ALL' in my first post... then 'some' are incredibly stupid and almot get what they deserve. Yes there are 'some' equally stupid in Europe... but the attitude I persoanlly witnessed was of 'some' people saying to marshalls while drinking a beer ... "Yeah we will be fine...dont worry...we have been watching this for years.." while then continuing to stand on what was basically the outside and exit of a corner!!

Seriously....who the hell sits next to a motorsport course in a damn deckchair drinking beer with not form of barrier between them and the cars? Beyond the height of lunacy. You can make that a 'Dont attack the racefans or the US' insult all you like..but stupidity..is still stupidity...no matter what your nationality.

As to the other observations... I can merely compare european motorsport safety standards to those 'which I saw'. I am sorry again if that is uncomfortable for you, but half the cars I saw would not be allowed within 10 miles of even the most basic grass track racing circuit here in the UK...let alone a national rally.

So dont look now...but the safety observations sting, because they are the truth... if you dont like that, well then fine....its not arrogance but personal opinion formed on observations seen at first hand. You may have produced the safest Off-road car in the United States since 1975 to the highest of standards...unfortunately... I didnt see you...or any vehicle even vaguely close to that at the couple of events I saw in California and I lived there for 4 years...

Sounds like you went to an off-road race thinking it was a rally.
Sorry you can't tell the difference, you might have been able to tell the difference if you would have noticed that a rally car wouldn't last 5 miles on an off road course. Even if you do think the 'car' safety was below your FIA standards, how you explain the fact there are few if any driver fatalities in off road racing?
BTW, thanks for leaving California, we have enough imports as it is to annoy us natives...

[pingu666]

the trophy trucks ive seen have looked strong. well a strong spaceframe and disposable bodywork xD

[johnmhinds]

God only knows why whitewaterMII is taking this personally.

This isn't a European racing vs American racing debate, it's a bad track management vs good track management debate.
If this has happened in Europe we would still be blaming everyone involved for doing the same stupid things.

The fact that some people in this thread are condoning the actions of the people involved here is baffling.

The race organisers should have fenced off the track, fans shouldn't have been standing/sitting so close and the drivers shouldn't have been racing through a tunnel of fans.
Everyone involved was to blame in some way, and they should all pay the price for their stupidity.

I'm only sorry that the fans had to pay with their lives.

Edited by johnmhinds, 15 August 2010 - 19:36.

[fastlegs]

The thing that I find surprising is that this sort of thing doesn't happen more often in off road and rally racing.

When you stand too close to a race course with no protection between you and the race cars/trucks you are definitely placing yourself in harm's way.

[stevewf1]

When was the last time that many spectators were killed at a race?

[mclarensmps]

Always sad to read about a story like this.

[Lee Nicolle]

It is quite funny that the Rally enthustiasts are canning off roaders. I watch World Championship rallying on TV and the crowds are so close [and larger] to the action it is scarey. And this on an event held on the roads. Dakar type events are the same.
This is very sad but they were standing watching the cars jump and were too close. It is quite hard to police a 50 mile lap in comparison to a 5k stage!!
This is one of the reasons that I consider offroading, rallying etc to dangerous too take part in, spectacular is it can be.

[Rubens Hakkamacher]

WRC will cancel a stage of spectator safety is questionable.

I've never seen a "safe" spectator rally stage. It's no different than off road racing in California, people stand on the side of the road.

[wingwalker]

Just awful.


WRC was mentioned, and yes, personally I think WRC will change considerably after a similar accident which I believe is bound to happen sooner or later.

[primer]

I've never seen a "safe" spectator rally stage. It's no different than off road racing in California, people stand on the side of the road.

You make it sound as if it is all an act of god and humans are helpless.

On a corner you want to be standing on the inside rather than outside, definitely safer. But yes, if you hang close to the 'track' on straights a car can hit you. BTW, check this rally accident compilation and you will see how few (if any) people got hurt, and most who got hurt put themselves where it was clear to anyone with common sense a car would come crashing if driver lost control. Also, in WRC crowds know where to stand (and where not to), for the most part.

I am not blaming organizers for this incident. It would be like blaming the rail company after someone jumped in front of a speeding train.

WRC was mentioned, and yes, personally I think WRC will change considerably after a similar accident which I believe is bound to happen sooner or later.

WRC has already had its share of acccidents, and made changes to minimize injuries to spectators. Not sure what more you want from them, ban spectators from stages entirely? On youtube there are videos where you can see how much more dangerous rallying was in the past, and in comparision how sanitized it is now.

Edited by primer, 15 August 2010 - 22:40.

[Ian G]

Very Sad...we had a narrow miss in a desert Rally based in Alice Springs last year(may have been 2 years ago), overpowered 'preying mantis' type buggy lost control and ploughed thru the middle of about 20 people on a dry creek bed,no one hurt but aparently it was very close and hushed up by organisers.

[Rubens Hakkamacher]

Unfortunately...this is one of the biggest reasons why the US simply is not ready to host a WRC round. Their idea of 'Off-road' racing and rallying is completely different. Rallying at night in Europe and other parts of the world is a perfectly safe thing

WRC has been lucky. Every stage you can see people that are in danger, it is NOT a "perfectly" safe thing unless you're standing in the trees on the inside of the apex.

Unfortunately, spectators in the US for both off-road and rallying, tend to think its their 'right' to stand whre they like,

Yanks don't have a clue, unlike the smart guys you can see at every WRC stage on the side of the road, next to 110 mph jumps and at the exit of turns. They're so much smarter than the Yanks, it's almost magical how safe they are. Just like all of these smart, perfectly safe people:

http://www.automobil.....road show.jpg
http://i3.photobucke...lcheth75RAC.jpg

in fact even during Rally New York, a couple of residents that lived on stage routes decided they would leave their house while the stage was 'Live' despite being told they couldnt and that they agreed they would not go onto the road. The net result was a Subaru Impreza flying over a crest to be faced with a local in their car coming toward them and I understand the cars missed by a matter of inches.

So true, nothing like that has EVER happened outside the U.S..

When I was in the States I went to a couple of these races to see what it was like. Lots of converted pick-up's, buggies, beatles, that sort of thing...and their idea of 'safety' was shall we say... a little antiquated!!

Yeah, you'd NEVER see something like this:

http://upload.wikime...iatYump1_SM.jpg

- outside of the U.S..

[FlatOverCrest]

1: WRC has been lucky. Every stage you can see people that are in danger, it is NOT a "perfectly" safe thing unless you're standing in the trees on the inside of the apex.

2:Yanks don't have a clue, unlike the smart guys you can see at every WRC stage on the side of the road, next to 110 mph jumps and at the exit of turns. They're so much smarter than the Yanks, it's almost magical how safe they are. Just like all of these smart, perfectly safe people:

3:So true, nothing like that has EVER happened outside the U.S..

4:Yeah, you'd NEVER see something like this:
- outside of the U.S..

Ok if you want to play silly games, I am more than happy to answer.

1: WRC has not been LUCKY as you call it, it has had numerous horrific accidents and as a result the push for safety continues with every event. As such, a stage safety officer can now cancel a stage he feels is not safe, or where people refuse to move from what is considered a stupid position. For the record...did I state WRC was 'Perfectly safe'? in which case...please do not insinuate that I have.

2: Again..you failed to even bother your backside to READ properly that I used the word 'SOME', I did not state 'ALL' Yanks... your generalisation is reaching at best. Of course there are people in the rest of the world that stand in idiotic positions, in fact there were even some on Rally Finland..... but I merely commented on the attitude of those that I saw with my own eyes at an off-road event in the US. If you cannot deal with that, then fine...but trying to create an arguement stating things I have not said, is frankly moot and pointless.

3: Accidents happen all the time, but it's understanding what can be done to make it safer and the fans in attendance understanding what 'their' own responsibilities are. If they get hit, yes it's their fault, but they also then potentially affect the future of the sport, through no fault of the drivers. Again if you dont grasp that from my own observations, people didnt really seem to care about where they stood, and had a different view to the consequences, then you miss the point I am trying to make and it does not involve wrapping myself in my personal national flag and getting all defensive about the said stupid few.

4: You have chosen to take a picture of a 'Road Rally' car, which is nothing like a 'Stage Rally Car' as both events are completely different. a night road rally, uses public roads and should be to local speed limits, as opposed to closed Road Stage Rallying. Therefore the safety requirements are deemed less as they should not actually be any different to any other road user. The fact that some wannabe stage rally drivers, wish to put in safety cages and harnesses to their road going shoebox, is fine by me and whatever makes them feel good. But dont compare that type of car from a full blown Stage Rally Car.

When you want to take a calm minute an think about what I actually wrote and then come back with a reasoned discussion as to what I saw and how I have compared that to years of European competition, then feel free to discuss further, otherwise I think Primer summed it up perfectly.

[goldenboy]

Im a little ignorant of all things rally and off road so Im admitting I dont know much about it, but when I see where the spectators are in WRC Im fuc*ing horrified!!!!!!! And my thoughts are well, if they are stupid enough to put themselves in that position they only have themselves to blame. They run out to help push cars back over before they have even finished rolling. And if the safety in WRC is better than what everyone is saying about the event in the US... Well.

I have seen a family member killed by a car crossing a pedestrian crossing, and I know there is a difference for the rest of your life how you react to respecting dangerous situations involving motor vehicles. Which sadly, people who have never been impacted by mv accidents, a lot of the time do not have.

Once you see first hand what a car can do, the only word I can think of when I see people doing this kind of thing - MADNESS

Edited by goldenboy, 16 August 2010 - 00:52.

[HP]

One thing that can be hoped from this sad tragedy is that it helps to educate spectators to look for better positions to view such events. Worldwide, not just for that particular race.

[Mat]

Very hard to control spectators along a 50mile route. But I do believe race organisers should make SOME effort to ellimate the risk to spectators. No-Go zones after all jumps would be a start...