60 replies to this topic

[Quixotic]

For most of my Motorcycle racing life I raced 2 strokes.

Did anyone have a serious 2 stroke racing car?

I seem to remember reading a SAAB 3 cylinder Formula Junior, but that its all I have heard of.

I have seen heaps of road racing sidecars with Yamaha TZ700 engines in them. But nothing on successful 2 stroke cars. And no I do not count Rotaries as 2 strokes!

[Allan Lupton]

Quite a number have been made but none has been successful so far as I can remember.
Fiat tried an Oechselhauser type opposed piston system in 1925, but the exhaust pistons did not stand up to the hard life they had so it did not race.
The Z company of Brno, Czechoslovakia used the duplex two-stoke with a separate blower as did the Trossi Monaco.

[Alexey Rogachev]

F. Junior and F3 in Eastern Europe in the sixties were mostly based on Wartburg 3-cylinder 2-stroke engines. For examlpe: Melkus and SEG (East Germany), Rak (Poland), many home-made cars from Czechoslovakia, Estonia 5 and Estonia 9 (USSR).

Edited by Alexey Rogachev, 15 August 2010 - 09:39.

[Quixotic]

F. Junior and F3 in Eastern Europe in the sixties were mostly based on Wartburg 3-cylinder 2-stroke engines. For examlpe: Melkus and SEG (East Germany), Rak (Poland), many home-made cars from Czechoslovakia, Estonia 5 and Estonia 9 (USSR).

Any pics of those Alexey? Do any of them survive?

[arttidesco]

I am far from an expert in the hallowed halls of TNF, but since I have been here I have learned that DKW, Trabant and Wartburg raced 2 stroke cars with varying degrees of success.

Coenraad Spencer seems to have successfully campaigned a variety of 2 stroke DKWs in races rallying and hillclimbs, whose engines allegedly only have 8 moving parts !

There was a cool looking spyder the Hartmann DKW which was raced but I know very little about.

An unknown Scottish farmer Jim Clark made his racing debut in a #4 DKW and Juan Manuel Fangio appears to have competed in one as well.

I imagine our experts from behind the former Iron Curtain can tell us about the 2 stoke success of the Wartburg and Trabandts in eastern Europe whose engines were almost certainly used in a number specials including this #102 Wartburg Eigenbau seen in the hands of Frank Menzel.

Edited by arttidesco, 15 August 2010 - 10:08.

[Alexey Rogachev]

Right now I may post links to the corresponding pages of my web site: http://www.ussr-auto.../estonia-5.html and http://www.ussr-auto.../estonia-9.html. At least one Estonia 9 has survived in Tallinn (in a very poor state), and one Estonia 5 (of two ever built) is rumoured to be in Sweden. As to big photos, please wait a little, as I need some time to find something on my PC

[vintagecon]

For most of my Motorcycle racing life I raced 2 strokes.

Did anyone have a serious 2 stroke racing car?

I seem to remember reading a SAAB 3 cylinder Formula Junior, but that its all I have heard of.

I have seen heaps of road racing sidecars with Yamaha TZ700 engines in them. But nothing on successful 2 stroke cars. And no I do not count Rotaries as 2 strokes!

There was a swedish formula 2 effort in 1981:
http://forums.autosp...a...st&p=793552

[arttidesco]

Top links Alexy, TGF Google translator :-)

[Bloggsworth]

If I recall correctly, the front engined Elva-DKW was fairly successful. It used an Austin A35 gearbox, and when I drove one I was told not to slow on the over-run in second gear as it set up a vibration which cracked the tailshaft casing. Tim Moore won a Formula Libre race at Debden in 1964 in his black one. It was fun to drive, easy to hang out the back end.

The late, great, Peter Arundell won the John Davy Trophy at the Boxing Day Brands Hatch meeting in an Elva-D.K.W. in 1959

Edited by Bloggsworth, 15 August 2010 - 11:00.

[David McKinney]

The late, great, Peter Arundell won the John Davy Trophy at the Boxing Day Brands Hatch meeting in an Elva-D.K.W. in 1959

But within months most of the Elva owners had realised the A-Type BMC was better suited to purpose - and everyone else was finding the 105E Anglia unit better still.

OTTOMH, only Gerhard Mitter's DKW-powered Juniors remained competitive

[NanningF1fan]

]#102 Wartburg Eigenbau[/url] seen in the hands of Frank Menzel.
[/quote]

It looks just a little out classed!

[Terry Walker]

There was a guy who raced a Lotus 23-sized sports car in the US in the 60s which was powered by a two stroke outboard engine with immense tuned exhaust stacks. I gather it was quite successful, but I can't recall any details now. It was written up in a contemporary US motor racing mag.

[Bloggsworth]

I have a feeling that at that same Boxing Day race I watched Carlsson man-handling a front-wheel drive SAAB 2 stroke through Paddock Bend.

Ron Marchant's Lotus 23, details here, was powered by 6 Ariel Arrow 250 twins attached to a common shaft? Synchronisation was a problem! The Rotorvic engine is now in the Donnington Collection.

Edited by Bloggsworth, 15 August 2010 - 12:06.

[Vitesse2]

In late 1939, Earl Howe announced that he was going to fit a blown two-stroke engine in his ERA. It was supposed to make its debut at the cancelled Zurich meeting in October, having been written up in both Autocar in August and Motor Sport in September, but I've never seen anything else about it (apart from an Italian newspaper report based on the Autocar article). Does anyone know if it ever got anywhere near a track - or even if the engine ever met the chassis?

[arttidesco]

]#102 Wartburg Eigenbau[/url] seen in the hands of Frank Menzel.


It looks just a little out classed!

Well that's historic racing for you

[arttidesco]

In late 1939, Earl Howe announced that he was going to fit a blown two-stroke engine in his ERA. It was supposed to make its debut at the cancelled Zurich meeting in October, having been written up in both Autocar in August and Motor Sport in September, but I've never seen anything else about it (apart from an Italian newspaper report based on the Autocar article). Does anyone know if it ever got anywhere near a track - or even if the engine ever met the chassis?

Couldn't find anything on the net about the 2 stroke ERA, but here is an interesting snipet on a planned 2 stroke inverted Mercury Marine V12 planned by Briggs Cunningham ... that never materialised

[RA Historian]

As mentioned earlier, at the start of Formula Junior racing in the US, several cars were equipped with the two stroke DKW three. Over the course of that year, 1960, they all seemingly were converted to four stroke four cylinder units.

There were some successes. Jim Hall won the Sebring FJ race in March in an Elva-DKW. Steve Wendt won the FJ race at the Road America June Sprints in an Elva-DKW. A 100 mile USAC professional FJ race at Road America July 20, 1960, was won by Curt Gonstead in an MBM-DKW. I imagine that there were others. Alan Connell also had a DKW in his Cooper T-52.

Jeff Miller has won six SCCA class championships over the years with a two stroke Kohler engine in various Lola chassis.

Tom

[Macca]

Not very historic, but from the late 1980s there were quite a lot of 2-strokes in British hillclimbs and sprints in the 500cc class, many of them being built by Jedi and powered by tuned versions of the Suzuki RG500 road bike, a square-four with disc-valve induction.

Paul M

[kayemod]

My memory is vague on this one, it's based on nothing more that a once-read article in Autosport, probably some time in the 70s. Some guy who'd worked at Brabham, and who I'd decided by the end of the article, was clearly a bit of a nutter, claimed to have designed a revolutionary 4wd multi-engined 2 stroke F1 car for them, that according to him, would have been about half as fast again as anything else on the track, whilst being 100% within the existing rules, it looked vaguely like the original Pratt & Whitney Indy turbine car. Autosport checked with Bernie, who denied all knowledge of him, though it seems that he was at one time a Brabham employee on the design staff. It was all a bit sad really, the guy was pictured in a bare rented cottage, somewhere on Dartmoor, huddled over a one-bar electric fire, telling someone like Simon Taylor how his ideas would have revolutionised racing as we know it. As I said, he seemed like an out and out nutter, but the magazine devoted a couple of pages to his ideas. Does anyone else remember this, please tell me I'm not imagining things in my declining years.

[RShaw]

SCCA has run a two-stroke open wheel class for many years. Originally called Formula 440 and usually using a Fuji Heavy Industries 440cc snowmobile engine developing about 70 hp, they would scoot pretty good in a car with a total weight of about 700 lbs. Chassis was tube frame and used rubber doughnuts for suspension. Tranny was a CVT snowmobile unit.
The current formula calls for a 500cc engine, but basic car is similar.

[Hugo Boecker]

Overshadowed by the debut of the Auto Union and Mercedes GP car the little Zoller Voiturettes made their debut too at AVUS in 1934. Theese cars were driven by Ernst von Delius, Gerhard Macher, Herbert wimmer and Karl von Tüssling during that year. At least three cars were built, some sources say five, at the Röhr factory at Ober-Ramstadt. Six xcylinder 16 pistons. They started at the Eifelrennen 34, again with no sucsess. In hillclimbs there was mainly failiure too. A sad story at all, Arnold Zoller died at the end of 1934. The project lived on some years. Wimmer had a special bodied car in 1935 and started in some hillclimbs. In 1937 Gerhard Macher appeared at the AVUS Voiturette race with a streamlined car, but he had to quit after practice and was a non-starter. In 38 he converted this car into a sportscar and did some tests at the Autobahn near Berlin.

[kayemod]

Six x cylinder 16 pistons.

Make that 12 pistons, and I'd agree with you. This engine has long interested me, but I've only read about it, never seen a drawing. As I understand it, there were six paired cylinders, with a single casting that incorporated all twelve heads, and an ingenious intake one side, exhaust the other crossflow arrangement. Can anyone point us in the direction of some better info?

[Alexey Rogachev]

Any pics of those Alexey? Do any of them survive?

Here are some photos of the Wartburg-powered cars from Eastern Europe:

Melkus 61 (Leningrad, 1961, CAMK International Trophy) :


Rak 61 (Leningrad, 1961, CAMK International Trophy) :


Melkus 62 (Leningrad, 1962, CAMK International Trophy) :


Rak 62 (Leningrad, 1962, CAMK International Trophy) :


Estonia 5 (Tallinn, 1962, USSR Championship, round 1) :


Melkus 63 (no. 22), Estonia 9 (66), Melkus 64 (63, 7) (Kaunas, 1966, USSR Championship, round 2) :


Melkus 64 (no. 63), Estonia 9 (66), (Budapest, 1966, the Cup of Peace and Friendship, round 1) :


MGK (Minsk, 1970, the Cup of Peace and Friendship, round 2) :

[lanciaman]

I recall D Sports Racers with two-strokes were not uncommon in SCCA racing in the late 1960s-early 70s. They made an awful racket but killed the mosquitoes.

[D-Type]

Straying beyond out-and-out racing cars, two SAABs ran at Le Mans in 1959 and DKWs in 1957 and 1963. And let's not forget that Jim Clark made his racing debut in a DKW.

I think I read somewhere that under racing conditions the middle cylinder of the 3-cylinder DKW engine tended to overheat, which was one reason they were unpopular for FJ.

Edited by D-Type, 15 August 2010 - 19:16.

[ggnagy]

I recall D Sports Racers with two-strokes were not uncommon in SCCA racing in the late 1960s-early 70s. They made an awful racket but killed the mosquitoes.

One of the more popular 2-strokes in DSR was the Suzuki GT750 "Water Buffalo" usually modified by Ocelot Engineering. Variations of the Rotax 494 and other snowmobile engines have also been used in DSR and the (SCCA) F500 class. Some Outboard Marine engines were used at times in the Modified/SR class, like McCulloch and Mercury.

A few years back (2005 maybe), someone found a loophole in the SCCA FC ruleset, and brought some sort of 2-cycle MC engined car to the Runoffs. It seems that any sub 1100 motor was allowed, as an artifact of the old Formula C rules. The rest of the field protested under the "strained and tortured interpretation" rule, the car excluded from running, and the Formula Car Specification rules rewritten to eliminate the loopholes.

[h4887]

In 1963 a version of the Ginetta G4 with a DKW engine was built for Albrecht Mantzel's team to run in the Nurburgring 1000km. driven by Dieter Mantzel and Peter Ruby. Unfortunately they replaced Ginetta's quick - fill fuel tank with an enormous steel tank which rather compromised the performance and handling. It retired with a fuel blockage. Later it was extensively used as a hillclimber in Switzerland. The Walkletts also worked on another version with the DKW engine in the front but with a rear transaxle. However, this was never completed.

[Tim Murray]

On 28th March 1968 Motoring News published a long article by a Mr C P Treen explaining the engineering theory behind his design for an F1 engine, an X32 two-stroke (!!). I did think at the time that the publication date was just a bit too close to 1st April. However, the article was very technical and made sense, but I never heard anything more about the project.

[philippe7]

There also was this bizarre 4-engines, 4-wheel drive Can-Am car ( late 60's - early 70's ? ) equipped with one two-stroke engine ( snowmobile origin ? ) attached to each of the 4 corners with an automatic transmission ? I've seen photos and read about it somewhere and I can't think where else than on TNF it could have been.....

[RA Historian]

There also was this bizarre 4-engines, 4-wheel drive Can-Am car ( late 60's - early 70's ? ) equipped with one two-stroke engine ( snowmobile origin ? ) attached to each of the 4 corners with an automatic transmission ? I've seen photos and read about it somewhere and I can't think where else than on TNF it could have been.....

Mac's-It Special, as I recall. A two cyl two stroke at each corner. As you no doubt surmise, it didn't work.
Tom

[Lee Nicolle]

Speedway in Oz ofcourse has had had a majority of 2 strokes in Formula 500 cars for a long time. The 'hot' engines were RG500 Suzukis, Rotax and Polaris twins and there was others.Fast and spectacular when they were all running right though most of the time they were loaded up rich or too lean and burning pistons. These days the category includes 600 4 strokes which are far more reliable[and heavier] though the RGs can still be faster. Before the two strokes came in the gun engine was 500 Jawa solo bike engines.
I can vaguely remember someone running a 2 stroke of some sort in a F libre car in the 80s.
There is some very quick ones in hillclimbers at National level.

[philippe7]

Mac's-It Special, as I recall. A two cyl two stroke at each corner. As you no doubt surmise, it didn't work.
Tom

Thank you, Tom, that's the one

For those interested if you scroll down about half way down the page linked below from the CAN-AM thread of the French AUTODIVA forum there is a post about this car . It was powered by four 800cc 2-stroke Rotax twins, and only appeared once for practice of the 1970 Laguna Seca race, driven by Hiroshi Fushida . Hopelessly slow, didn't qualify and wasn't seen anymore after .

http://www.autodiva....p...7&start=240

Edited by philippe7, 16 August 2010 - 01:55.

[bradbury west]

ISTR Bill Milliken's Camber Car is powered by a (flat?) 6 cylinder 2 stroke from a snowmobile, and in terms of failure with a 2 stroke, always remember the Guidobaldi supercharged 8cylinder 2 stroke radial-engined F1 car from 1951/52. He had developed a 10 cylinder blown 2 stroke pre WW2, probably for boat use, but it is very large. The F1 car had suspension pivotting around the axle centre lines to makes the wheels lean into the corners, as had the Arnott sports car in 1957. Something was amiss with the Guidobaldi design as the chassis did the leaning....
Roger Lund

[Allan Lupton]

Make that 12 pistons, and I'd agree with you. This engine has long interested me, but I've only read about it, never seen a drawing. As I understand it, there were six paired cylinders, with a single casting that incorporated all twelve heads, and an ingenious intake one side, exhaust the other crossflow arrangement. Can anyone point us in the direction of some better info?

That's the device normally known as a duplex two-stroke and was seen in cars from the Trojan utility to the Trossi Monaco and Z racers.

always remember the Guidobaldi supercharged 8 cylinder 2 stroke radial-engined F1 car from 1951/52.

I don't!
Was it a duplex too or a uniflow like the two-stroke diesels found in some Foden lorries?

[bradbury west]

I don't!
Was it a duplex too or a uniflow like the two-stroke diesels found in some Foden lorries?

Allan, as a non-engineer I can tell you nothing more. It has been discussed previously on various threads, with a debate about radial engines and even nos of cylinders.
I attach a phot from a magazine cover. I have the rest in the files here, and some photogrpahs of it rebuilt by the Mougins museum staff some time ago, along with the 10 cylinder engine.

Roger Lund

[kayemod]

Doesn't anyone here remember that Autosport article about some ridiculous 2-stroke F1 idea that I mentioned earlier? If it helps to jog anyone's memory, I think it had quite a lot of wheels, maybe eight of them, and all of them driven as far as I can remember. Yes that's what I said, an 8-wheeled F1 car, but I did say that the whole thing was ridiculous, I was surprised at the time that Autosport, which was a fairly serious magazine about motor racing in those days, wasted at least two pages on the story.

[Allan Lupton]

Thanks, Roger.
Just that photo tells me it's a uniflow as there is only one row of cylinders and each has a pushrod operated valve (or valves) which will be the exhaust.
The inlet arrangements don't look too clever. Wonder if it produced as much power as a blown four-stroke of the same displacement.

[Tim Murray]

Doesn't anyone here remember that Autosport article about some ridiculous 2-stroke F1 idea that I mentioned earlier? If it helps to jog anyone's memory, I think it had quite a lot of wheels, maybe eight of them, and all of them driven as far as I can remember. Yes that's what I said, an 8-wheeled F1 car, but I did say that the whole thing was ridiculous, I was surprised at the time that Autosport, which was a fairly serious magazine about motor racing in those days, wasted at least two pages on the story.

Rob, I suspect you may be thinking about the British Lion. This was designed by David Cox, who had worked at Brabham (on the fan car) and was based at the time in Sidmouth, Devon. The car was to be powered by an Allison gas turbine engine and had 12 wheels. Each wheel was driven (and braked) by a hydrostatic hub motor. It featured active micro-processor controlled suspension using interlinked springs, and what amounted to a joystick for driver control. The article appeared in Autosport on 3-Jan-1980, written by our own Doug Nye.

[Tim Murray]

... and serendipitously, while looking for any other mention of the British Lion on TNF, I came across this earlier thread on the Guidobaldi:

The weirdest postwar F1 of all?

Anyway, from that thread, here are DCN's comments on the British Lion:

The Lion story as published in 'Autosport' - I don't know about any other places, except maybe 'Auto Sport' Japan - was by yr fthful srvnt. I cannot recall the name of the designer, but he was ex-BAC/Tornado project, the man who'd talked Gordon Murray into trying surface cooling on the original Brabham BT46 (?) etc etc. His multi-wheeled, multi-drive, turbine-engined Lion scheme was in fact acceptable under the regulations as they then stood, and it certainly promised to be lightning fast in a straight line because its front-wheel sized tyres all round would have presented minimal frontal area. The disturbing fact was that during our interview the designer's wife kept sticking her head around the door, and carolling softly "He's a winner, you know. He's always been a winner....".

Well he lost that one.

[Hugo Boecker]

Make that 12 pistons, and I'd agree with you. This engine has long interested me, but I've only read about it, never seen a drawing. As I understand it, there were six paired cylinders, with a single casting that incorporated all twelve heads, and an ingenious intake one side, exhaust the other crossflow arrangement. Can anyone point us in the direction of some better info?

Of course 12 - 16 were the Auto Unions I guess
Here is a small drawing of the Zoller engine in the Austrian Allgemeine Auto Zetung

[kayemod]

Rob, I suspect you may be thinking about the British Lion. This was designed by David Cox, who had worked at Brabham (on the fan car) and was based at the time in Sidmouth, Devon. The car was to be powered by an Allison gas turbine engine and had 12 wheels. Each wheel was driven (and braked) by a hydrostatic hub motor. It featured active micro-processor controlled suspension using interlinked springs, and what amounted to a joystick for driver control. The article appeared in Autosport on 3-Jan-1980, written by our own Doug Nye.

Thanks Tim. Well, apart from getting the number of wheels and the drive system slightly wrong, thanks for confirming that I was absolutely spot-on with everything else, especially about the bloke being a bit of a nutter. I was surprised at the time that anyone took it seriously enough for it to appear in what was in those days a well respected publication though, hardly Doug's fault, but how on earth did it ever get past the Editor?

[arttidesco]

BOT here are some details of the 4 engined 2 Stroke Macs IT Can Am Project puts David Cox 12 Wheel British Lion project into perspective

[Tweddell]

ginetta g4 , driven by well-known dkw-tuner mantzel, at 1000 km race nurburgring 1963, powered by a dkw engine.

[David McKinney]

The tuner or his son?

[arttidesco]

The tuner or his son?

According to racingsportscars the #80 a Ginetta G6 driven by Wolf - Dieter Mantzel and Peter Ruby the owner Q 53rd (11:37.600) abd DNF.

Can anyone confirm if the car in Tweddells pic is either a G4 or G6 ?

Edited by arttidesco, 18 August 2010 - 13:37.

[David McKinney]

The son, then

[bradbury west]

The son, then

Confirmed as the son by the Ginetta book. It was a G6, of which 3 were made to take the DKW motor.
Roger Lund

[arttidesco]

Thanks David and Roger.

[h4887]

The tuner or his son?

See my post 27. Strangely the picture does not show the very high windscreen which the car was supposed to run to meet the regulations. It was officially a G6, but then the G4 1500 was called a G5, and that never caught on either.

[Graham Clayton]

Speedway in Oz ofcourse has had had a majority of 2 strokes in Formula 500 cars for a long time. Before the two strokes came in the gun engine was 500 Jawa solo bike engines.

Lee,
Back in 1963 Nev Waters raced a TQ speedcar at the Windsor RSL Speedway which was powered by a two-stroke Johnson outboard engine.