632 replies to this topic

[Allen Brown]

I didn't understand that either but was reluctant to display my ignorance. Does he mean that the A35, as it would have been allowed to have any spec of A-series engine, could have been using the sort of thing they have in the Mini Miglia Championship?

[ianselva]

I didn't understand that either but was reluctant to display my ignorance. Does he mean that the A35, as it would have been allowed to have any spec of A-series engine, could have been using the sort of thing they have in the Mini Miglia Championship?

I doubt that ,the Mini Miglia Formula is a fairly restricted class whereas I'm sure the A35s and A40s were pretty well ultimate A series mods .
However A series motors have had 16 Valve heads , 8 port crossflow heads ,wild cams and steel cranks since the 60s

[Kingsleyrob]

Looks much the same as my A40 under the bonnet, apart from the extra carburettor ...



Rob

Edited by Kingsleyrob, 12 October 2010 - 18:37.

[h4887]

Does that A35 still have the hydro-mechanical brake arrangement? It was never up to much on the one I had in 1966, although the poor thing was hard-pressed to reach 70mph unless you could find a long enough hill

[Kingsleyrob]

Well, the A40 pic drew a deathly silence, so time for a change of direction.

I spotted a nice pair of Bristols amongst the the pre-66 displays. Which reminds me, these lovelies did a very good interpretation of a number of Andrews Sisters' songs.



Rob

[Tony Matthews]

Well, the A40 pic drew a deathly silence, so time for a change of direction.

I spotted a nice pair of Bristols amongst the the pre-66 displays. Which reminds me, these lovelies did a very good interpretation of a number of Andrews Sisters' songs.



Rob

Where's my Wanner?

[Kingsleyrob]

Where's my Wanner?

Well Tony, at the risk of making an ar*e of myself in front of an international audience, I haven't a clue what you are on about.

Are the men in white coats behind you? Or behind me?

Here's one of the Bristols I spotted - very rare - from 1948 I recall.





Rob

Edited by Kingsleyrob, 12 October 2010 - 20:56.

[Norman Jones]

Well Tony, at the risk of making an ar*e of myself in front of an international audience, I haven't a clue what you are on about.

Are the men in white coats behind you? Or behind me?

Here's one of the Bristols I spotted - very rare - from 1948 I recall.





Rob

Er wanner make Greese guns ....greese nipples.....

[Kingsleyrob]

Er wanner make Greese guns ....greese nipples.....

Ahaa! Thanks Norman. So, I have made an ar*e of myself in front of an international audience.

Not for the first time, and no doubt not the last. If only I'd Googled "Wanner" instead of "Where's my Wanner". I thought it was going to be an Andrews Sisters song.

You got me there Tony. If I was coming to the Hertfordshire film show I'd buy you a pint, or a cup of tea.

Rob

Edited by Kingsleyrob, 12 October 2010 - 21:16.

[Tim Murray]

That Bristol is unusual. The grille is too long and narrow for a production 401, and they didn't have the horizontal(ish) crease in the bodywork behind the rear wheel. I'm guessing it's ane early 401 prototype. Do you have any more info on it, Rob?

[bradbury west]

That Bristol is unusual. The grille is too long and narrow for a production 401,

Ahead of its time, methinks. The grille is very much like the BMW 302 saloon grille.
Where's that copy of Palawan's Setright Bristol tome when you need it.?
Roger Lund

[Alan Cox]

That Bristol is unusual. The grille is too long and narrow for a production 401, and they didn't have the horizontal(ish) crease in the bodywork behind the rear wheel. I'm guessing it's ane early 401 prototype. Do you have any more info on it, Rob?

Here are the details from a Christie's sale catalogue when the car was sold in 2000
http://www.christies...t...938837&sid=

[Kingsleyrob]

Thanks Alan, that should fill in some gaps for the curious Tim and Roger.

I recall when chatting to the owner that it didn't come out of the factory painted red, but I can't remember what the original colour was.

Here's another photo. I'm not a huge Bristol fan, but I did find the lines of this one quite mesmerising. The interior and dash is impressive too.



Rob

Edited by Kingsleyrob, 12 October 2010 - 22:56.

[Tim Murray]

Thanks Alan. It's a good thing we all have different tastes - I much prefer the styling of the production 401s (sorry Rob!).

[Jack-the-Lad]

I spotted a nice pair of Bristols amongst the the pre-66 displays.



Rob

"Bristols"? I've never heard them called that before.....

[Tim Murray]

Comes from Cockney rhyming slang, Jack, as in 'Bristol City'.

[Penkhull]

Alan, thank you for posting the Christies Auction description.

As is often the case with the auction houses, they do not have all the facts quite correct.
In particular, the car is one of six bodied by Touring of Milan on what is essentially a Bristol 400 chassis.
In chronology terms the car sits between the Filton-built 400 and the 401, and in many ways is the prototype for the Bristol 401, as Tim suggests.
The car is quite a bit lighter than a production 401, due to more extensive use of aluminium and perspex.
A batch of six chassis were sent by Bristol and AFN to Touring in Milan for them to body.
About half were returned to Filton in partially-bodied state, in order to demonstrate to the Filton workforce the Superleggera principle which was to be applied to the bodying of the production 401.

Two cars currently exist in roadworthy state, this car being the more original, having spent its life until recently in Italy (reputedly as Sr. Anderloni's personal car), Switzerland and Austria.
In addition there are three more cars which still exist in various partially complete states.
Two of the incomplete cars were recently offered for auction by Coys.

[Tony Matthews]

Ahaa! Thanks Norman. So, I have made an ar*e of myself in front of an international audience.

Not for the first time, and no doubt not the last. If only I'd Googled "Wanner" instead of "Where's my Wanner". I thought it was going to be an Andrews Sisters song.

You got me there Tony. If I was coming to the Hertfordshire film show I'd buy you a pint, or a cup of tea.

Rob

A feeble joke, as usual from me, Rob, and not worth a pint or a cuppa, but it was a generous thought. I had to Google it myself, as although I own a Wanner, my brain was sure it was Wanger, which would have been more apt. If it was an Andrews Sisters song it must have been "I Wanner go home."

[David Birchall]

Back on track. Did you realise that the BMW/Frazer Nash numbering system was continuous?
(Did you care)
Prewar the BMW cars were 327, 328 etc. Postwar, after the Allies take over, the Frazer Nash and Bristol numbers were 400+ then BMW, as they regained control returned to the 500 series serial numbers, then 600, 700 etc.
Ain't that special? Bristol and FN were just an interlude....

[Allen Brown]

One of those Bristols belongs to the brother of a regular poster here. I was sitting right next to it for a good part of the Saturday. Beautiful car.

[Barry Boor]

Sadly, a former poster.

[275 GTB-4]

Reading this thread meandering around and even getting into handbag territory was almost as funny as this lot....

[NoNoiseLimits]

I know, I know. I'm a little late to add comment to this thread but i felt compelled to comment on a couple of points. I have actually joined the forum to allow me to do this, and it is a good community here so i think i'll be back more often!!

With regards to Frank Synter pondering the pace of Richard Attwood, you are correct in mentioning the extra half litre that car has. Also, i am told it has a six speed gearbox too. So, more power across the whole rev range plus an extra cog would make the car very difficult to beat.

Now, back to the big can of worms. Or kettle of fish depending on your point of view! I am in a fortunate position to have been involved with the recreations of both the Sharknose and the Lancia D50's. Everybody will have their own view on whether these cars should race or not, but the fact remains that they are NOT being passed off as original cars. Jim Stokes Workshops, the workshop responsible, have always been honest about the recreation, and the large amount of original parts involved, as i believe are the cars' owners. The D50's were recreated from thousands of photographs, and almost 100Kgs of original Lancia(and some Ferrari) drawings. They are faithful reproductions, down to the smallest detail. There are many more "original" cars out there that have less original parts than these cars. Because they have been around since they were first retired, they have been used, developed and repaired to the point where originality isn't really an option. The D50's have original engines, gearboxes and a whole bunch of other original parts, which were in all probability the components which won a world championship. These cars are not as fast as some of the Dino's and 250F's, which have now had over 50 years of continuous development. So how can one lay claim to have a car which is completely original? Unless you are fortunate enough to uncover a fantastic barn find, of course.

The 156 Sharknose is a similar situation. Both D50's and the 156's suffered from Enzo's idea that last years racing cars hold little value and should be scrapped. A quick look inside Michael Dregni's book, "Inside Ferrari", will illustrate the point, with photographs of some of the world's most fantastic racing cars being cut up for scrap. Big piles of 312 bodywork being cut up are hard to understand. So, Mr Beakins wanted to recreate Olivier Gendebean's Sharknose because of a sense of national pride, and a fascination for this car. Any of you who are interested will no doubt have found the project website, so i will only summarise here. The car was started as a complete recreation, because original parts were generally non-existant. But Jim Stokes Workshops knew of a pair of original heads for the rare 60 degree V6. New blocks were cast, but before machining was completed, an original bottom end surfaced through a contact of Jim Stokes. So the engine is based on original castings, with all moving parts made new. Major repair work was carried out to the heads, which had seen use on a 2.5 litre Dino in between the original racing era and the late nineties. The transmission is also an original factory piece since the majority of it was identical to various SP Dinos at the time. Detail differences were dealt with during the build. The car is no longer run by Jim Stokes Workshops, but shortly before it left it spent hours on a rolling road working on engine tuning. The end result was more power than Ferrari claimed originally, but driveability had suffered. There was no time too address this before Goodwood, so the car was up on power from last year but incredibly difficult to drive, hence the similar lap times. The car is currently being run by another company, who will hopefully be able to sort the driveability issue before the forthcoming season. It would be great to see it at least in the mid-field next year, and Jan should be able to get more out of the car if it is easier to drive. With Ian Rowley helping with development, it can only improve, and I for one can't wait to see it.

[RA Historian]

Everybody will have their own view on whether these cars should race or not, but the fact remains that they are NOT being passed off as original cars. Jim Stokes Workshops, the workshop responsible, have always been honest about the recreation, and the large amount of original parts involved, as i believe are the cars' owners.

For this I am very thankful. I have no problem with people recreating cars, especially those for which the originals no longer exist, as long as they are up front and truthful about the car. No Noise points out that this is true in the cases he cites.

My problem is with those who built replicas and then try to pass them off as the real thing. Yes, there are people who do that (!) and one notorious perpetrator was at Goodwood this year.

Where did the original Lancia D-50 V-8s come from? I am impressed that such rare engines could be located and resurrected years after their conveyances were scrapped.

While I am at it, and this is an aside and I am probably the only person bothered by it, I continue to get annoyed at the use of nicknames for cars that never were used when the cars were new. To my knowledge, Ferrari never called its 156/61 "Sharknose" (sic). Add to that 'Bobtail', 'Gullwing', 'Silver Arrows', 'Teardrop', and others. Yes, I am too pedantic and a curmudgeon. My fate in life.
Tom

[kayemod]

While I am at it, and this is an aside and I am probably the only person bothered by it, I continue to get annoyed at the use of nicknames for cars that never were used when the cars were new. To my knowledge, Ferrari never called its 156/61 "Sharknose" (sic). Add to that 'Bobtail', 'Gullwing', 'Silver Arrows', 'Teardrop', and others. Yes, I am too pedantic and a curmudgeon. My fate in life.
Tom

You're absolutely right as far as Ferrari, Cooper, Mercedes etc are concerned, their makers never referred to them as such in period, but the media and general public did. Certainly I can remember discussions and reports about Ferrari sharknoses from the time they first appeared in 1961, I think Autosport called them that when they were first revealed to the press.

[NoNoiseLimits]

The Lancia V8's were kept by Ferrari until Sir Antony Bamford saw them whilst visiting the factory and enquired about their origins. Sir Antony bought the job lot of engines and gearboxes(i am led to believe in the seventies) and kept hold of them until Lancia enthusiast Anthony Maclean managed to put together a group of people who wanted the cars recreated and the project came to fruition. I believe this was around 1997/1998. The first recreated car was Robin Lodge's, and IIRC first turned a wheel at Donington in March 2000.

Ferrari had used the engines, i believe in the 801. Also, they may have been used in either a sportscar, or possibly a powerboat project, since at least one of them had been run at an enlarged capacity. Apparently Ferrari had dabbled with boats at some point in this era. Either that or maybe one was not exactly legal in it's single seater usage....

Jim Stokes was afforded the opportunity to partially strip one of the two remaining original cars for research purposes. It would be amazing if one day one(or both!) of the originals could be returned to running condition.

The Chris Rea 156, was only ever meant to be a film car. It was built to look the part in the film that Chris made, so it only needed to look right when driven by a camera at speed, and when viewed when stationary at certain angles. This is not meant to sound as if I am slating the Rea car, but to state that it was built for a different purpose than Mr Beakin's, which it served very well. I believe that the difference between Jan's faithfull reproduction and Mr Rea's film car is the defining difference between a RECREATION, and a REPLICA. I admit to knowing nothing about what has happened with the Rea car since John Bosch took ownership, but i believe it has been retro fitted with more original parts than it had when built, but that some of these parts are not historically correct.

I agree with you about using nicknames of the cars, sometimes it annoys me too, but i am also guilty of doing it myself! The one that always gets me is GT40, Ford only ever called it a GT. The 40 is misleading on two counts, because apparently they left the factory at 39.5" high, and ride height would have varied between cars due to differing set ups.

Happy new year!!

Edited by NoNoiseLimits, 31 December 2010 - 17:56.

[NoNoiseLimits]

As a side note, you mention people who pass off cars as something they are not. There are many instances of this that i can think of, and i can assure you that there were many shocked faces at the meeting where Ferrari announced their idea of a Historic Passport to acknowledge originality of their cars. Certain people instantly became very concerned about the financial values of their supposedly original cars!! But Ferrari have not helped the situation themselves in the past, certain cars out there have one chassis number on the chassis, another on the body parts, and an unconnected number on the engine. A fair amount of this seems to have come from the factory at various times in the cars histories.

[Giraffe]

The truth is that the Beakin 'recreation' probably has more original parts on it than many an old 'original' racecar today. The difference is only that the 'original' has had it's component parts replaced over a much greater timespan. I appreciate a car's design which is the nub of it for me, the car itself merely being the execution of it. It's a bit like going to see a musician perform a song; it doesn't lose value or significance to me because it's not the first time he has performed it with the very same instrument.

As far as specific originality goes, I simply stick to DCN's mantra that I post once again here:

The classic and historic car world is riven with self-serving deception - and also self-serving self-deception. In truth the actual history of any artefact is never within the gift of any, inevitably temporary, owner. There was an early Lotus sports-racing car, sold to the US, returned years later as a bent and battered relic, and then 'restored' basically by having its chassis frame replaced by new. The owner of the time later sold the discarded original frame into other hands, while specifying that "the history does not go with this frame". In other words he attempted to specify that "the history" of the car and its American ownership would only "go" with the recreated car, assembled around the replacement, approximately one year-old, chassis frame.

This is fundamentally indefensible nonsense. The history of the original, discarded, now-sold chassis frame is utterly indelible, and plainly remains so until the day that the last vestige of that structure is finally melted down or corrodes away. Some things are not within the gift of mere man, and this is one of them. As for chassis plates - schmassis plates - a minor consideration in the factual scheme of things.

DCN

Edited by Giraffe, 01 January 2011 - 11:06.

[RA Historian]

No Noise, thanks a lot for your posts. They are quite informative. I especially appreciate your info on the Lancia V-8s. Never heard that before.

Hope to see you post regularly on TNF. You have already added quite a bit to our (my) knowledge.

Tom

[doc knutsen]

For this I am very thankful. I have no problem with people recreating cars, especially those for which the originals no longer exist, as long as they are up front and truthful about the car. No Noise points out that this is true in the cases he cites.


While I am at it, and this is an aside and I am probably the only person bothered by it, I continue to get annoyed at the use of nicknames for cars that never were used when the cars were new. To my knowledge, Ferrari never called its 156/61 "Sharknose" (sic). Add to that 'Bobtail', 'Gullwing', 'Silver Arrows', 'Teardrop', and others. Yes, I am too pedantic and a curmudgeon. My fate in life.
Tom

Do not despair,pedants are numerous in many corners of the World.;) I think you will find that the term "Silberpfeile" was used by the media as well as by the manufacturers themselves, for the pre WWII German Grand Prix effort, ie both the Auto Unions and the Mercedes. I seem to recall Monkhouse's book using that term for its title. It was also applied to the mid-Fifties M-B F1 and sports-racers. Audi uses the term in its current 2011 calendar, featuring the pre-WWII bolides in modern circuit settings. And RTL used to apply the term to the Mclarens of the recent past, only they were referred to as "Mercedes-McLaren", especially when they won.
Now, about the "Toothpaste tube" Connaught...

Edited by doc knutsen, 01 January 2011 - 15:36.

[Tim Murray]

The Boxgrove Priory Trust was this year's charity, so I paid a visit there Thursday evening.
This is the stained glass window dedicated to Pilot Officer Billy Fiske, who was buried in the graveyard.

As previously noted here by Doug Nye, Billy Fiske also has a memorial plaque in St Paul's cathedral in London:

[Giraffe]

I admit to knowing nothing about what has happened with the Rea car since John Bosch took ownership

John Bosch pictured in the car.


By giraffe138 at 2011-01-05

[Giraffe]

There were many stars at Goodwood today ............. Patrick Moore


By giraffe138 at 2010-09-19

In memory of the recently deceased Sir Patrick Moore who was a historic motor sport enthusiast, pictured here at the Goodwood Revival, 2010.

RIP Sir Patrick.

Edited by Giraffe, 11 December 2012 - 17:16.