23 replies to this topic

[alessandro silva]

Is it possible to have entrants & results for these races? I have only:

Maipokalrennen - Formula Libre?
May, 11, 1947
1 Stuck ?
2? Joa?
3? Brutsch ?

GP Frontières, Chimay - Formula Libre
Date???
1 "B Bira" Maserati
2 Monkhouse Bugatti
3 Rosier Talbot

[Hans Etzrodt]

Alessandro,
The race you are talking about was the 17. Frontières GP at Chimay, Belgium, on 25 May 1947. This F. Libre race went only over 12 laps, a total of 130.44 km. There were supposedly 27 cars at the start but my information is rather sketchy.
1. "B. Bira" (Maserati 4CL) 132.254 km/h or 132.277 km/h
2. P. Monkhouse (Bugatti)
3. L. Rosier (Talbot)
9. A. Pilette (Alfa Romeo)
FL Bira at 141.270 km/h
No times given, no starting grid to be found.
I thought there is a French language book around about these races. Does anybody know more about such a book?

As for the Maipokalrennen, this must have been a minor German event because I have no record and need to do some deep digging later on to see if I can find anything.

[Patrick Italiano]

There's indeed a book on the GP des Frontières. I don't own it, but as far as I recall, as I had it in hands several times, it focuses on touring cars racing, not sure it covers F.libre events.

I can remeber very well the cover, but can't give full record of edition, date, etc. Written and edited in Belgium...

[Don Capps]

Well, there was a 'Maipokalrennen' in 1948, which was for F2 cars & padded out with a few F-Libre machines -- Brutsch raced a Maserati during this period so it was probably a libre event. I don't have any notes with me, but I'll check this evening for what I have.

[fines]

The Maipokalrennen may have been a minor event in the great shape of things, but for Germany it was the first 'real' race meeting after WW2! In 1946 there had been two 'semi-official' meetings at the Ruhestein hill climb and in Karlsruhe, but in Hockenheim on May 11, 1947, Germany rose from the ashes of its own instigation to launch a fightback in the racing world! [/pathetic outburst]

The meeting comprised motorcycle races, sports car races with 1100cc, 1500cc and 2000cc capacity limits and the odd Formula Libre race. The latter attracted only three entries: Egon Brütsch with his 3-litre supercharged Alfa Romeo (a modified Monza?), Leonhard Joa with his ex-Pietsch 4CM Maserati '1553' (1.5-litre supercharged) and Hans Stuck with a new D46 Cisitalia. Guess who won? The smallest of the three cars, and hands down at that! With an average of 141.5 kph (slower than the three fastest sports cars) Stuck beat Joa (117.0 kph) into second place, with Brütsch presumably retiring.

Joa had his revenge at the Eggberg hill climb on August 10, beating Stuck (4'24.9") in the 1.5-litre class with a time of 4'19.8" (90.1 kph), while Brütsch won the 3-litre class (4'37.1", 84.5 kph) with a sick engine from Heinrich Herbster (Bugatti, 4'51.9"), Kurt Kiefer (Maserati) and Franz Braun (BMW). There were no more races for Rennwagen that year.

Back to the Maipokalrennen, which attracted an unbelievable 200,000 strong crowd!!! Imagine that, with transport facilities of a land which back then needed no Marshall-Plan to be in all sorts of trouble!

[alessandro silva]

Thank you everybody.

fines:
I can imagine very well the 200.000 in a ravaged country and the enthusiastic drivers looking for months for tyres and fuel just to enter a small race. It is one of the reasons why I decided to study the 40s.

And now, please, more on the Chimay race!

[Marcor]

17th GP des Frontières (Chimay) 25 May 1947.

45 competitors were entered in this meeting, 18 in the sportscars race and 27 in the Racing car races (Formule libre: racers of all ages, all classes, all capacities).

Yves Giraud-Cabantous won the first race (sportscars). He had won at Chimay 19 years ago, in 1928. A Belgian neophyte was classified 7th, his name: Georges ("Jojo") Berger.

You can find the complete results of this race in the very good website dedicated to the World of Sports cars http://www.angelfire.com/me/krejcimar/ , choose the non-championship races and the year (1947).

2nd race:
1- "B. Bira" Maserati 4CL #2, average speed 132.277 km/h, FL = 141.270 km/h
2- Monkhouse Bugatti 51
3- Louis Rosier Talbot speciale
4- Flahaut Fiat Ballila
...
8- Tony Rolt Alfa Aitken Special 2,9 L
9- André Pilette Alfa Romeo, + 1 lap (had a puncture)

DNF (Had a crash)- Serge Pozzoli Delahaye 135S

In the entrance: Ray Salvadori (to be confirmed), Trillaud (Delahaye 135S 47193


Without competition held in the UK (one exception, the Gransde Lodge meeting on 15 June, 1946), lot's of British drivers often crossed the Channel and the British colony was numerous at Chimay. (see the names of Tony Rolt, Monkhouse and newcomer Ray Salvadori). It was also the debut race of André Pilette, son of Theodore and father of Teddy.

LE GRAND PRIX DES FRONTIERES Tomes 1 and 2 were written by by André Biaumet. I don't know the reference nor the date of publication.

[David McKinney]

“Le Grand prix des Frontières a Chimay” by André Biaumet (Tome 1) has the following details:

1. [2] “Bira” (Maserati 4CL) 59’10 (1)
2. [14] Peter Monkhouse (Bugatti T51) 61’10
3. [27] Louis Rosier (Talbot Spéciale) 62’23
4. [22] Lex Beels (Alfa Romeo 8C-2300MM) 62’24
5. [32] Roy Salvadori (Alfa Romeo P3) 63’34
6. [38] Henri Trillaud (Delahaye 135) 64’21 (6)
7. [24] Harry Schell (Cisitalia D46) 11 laps
8. [10] Tony Rolt (Alfa-Aitken) 11 laps (5)
9. [44] “Lucky” (Alfa Romeo 8C-2300MM) 11 laps
10. [26] Raymond de Saugé (Cisitalia D46) 11 laps
11. [34] “Freige” (Monnier-Fiat 1.5) 10 laps
12. [28] Ted Lund (MG PB s/c) 9 laps
unclassified: [33] Michel Roumani (Bugatti T35)
retirements:
[16] John Bolster (ERA) 3 laps
[20] Arthur Legat (Bugatti 35B) 4 laps (3)
[36] Yves Giraud-Cabantous (Delahaye 135) 4 laps (4)
[40] Gabriel Lascaut (Salmson) 4 laps
[6] George Abecassis (Bugatti T59) 5 laps (2)
non-starters:
[8] Vandervecken (Alfa Romeo)
[12] Steinbach {Alfa Romeo 2900B)
[30] Serge Pozzoli (Delahaye 135)
[48] Guido Barbieri (Maserati 4CL)
[52] Joe Kelly (Riley)
[56] Raymond Sommer (Maserati 4CL)
[58] Henri Louveau (Delage D6)

Note the number of future GP drivers in that list. And you can add “Lucky”, whose real name was André Pilette...”Freige” was Maurice Monnier

[David McKinney]

Getting back to the May 1947 Hockenheim meeting:
There was also a sportscar race which was dominated - unsurprisingly - by BMW 328s or cars derived therefrom. A BMW coupé entered by Ernst Loof, father of the Veritas project, was winner, in the hands of Karl Kling, by a huge margin from a similarly-powered special, with the normal 328s of Toni Ulmen and Karl-Heinz Schäufele third and fourth. The special was Alex von Falkenhausen’s ALFA-BMW, which was not running properly, and which is better remembered today under its later name of AFM.
Von Falkenhausen also ran a BMW 328 with a smaller motor in the 1500 race, and easily defeated the streamlined version of Herrman Kathrein.
The 1100 event went to Emil 'Teddy' Vorster in an MG special from Gottfried Vollmer's twin-cylinder Neander-JAP and Nothalfer in an NSU-Fiat.

[Barry Lake]

David

I just went and moved a whole pile of heavy boxes to get out my book on Chimay by Biaumet, and now I log on and find you've already contributed the information...

Maybe I'll just sit back and absorb all the great detail you continue to contribute. You obviously have a good system there. Mine used to be very efficient but has outgrown the space I have available in the last year or so and I am beginning to struggle. I know where everything is, but sometimes it is just too hard to get to it!

[Barry Lake]

I can't remember which thread it was in but some time ago there was discussion about when and why writers and commentators used to refer to drivers as being "on" rather than "in" their cars.
The Chimay book refers in the results lists, through to 1959, "(driver) sur (car)" - which, of course, means "on".
Do the French still use this expression? Does anyone know?

[Marcor]

In French we say: Bonnier sur Porsche 718 (it's an example)

What is more correct in English: on (sur) or in (dans) ?

[Barry Lake]

Marcor

Currently, in English we say "in" (dans).

In the old days, they used to say "on" (sur), and this persisted with some people at least into the 1950s. Since about that time, however, "in" has become the most common usage.

What the discussion was about, was when English-speaking people stopped saying "on" and began saying "in".

I always thought it was to do with the style of cars. In cars of the 1880s to, say, 1920s, "on" was more accurate.

From the 1930s onwards, it was not so clear whether the drivers were "on" or "in" their cars (racing cars, that is; they certainly were "in" touring cars, for example).

Since the late 1950s, at least, surely "in" is more correct. And you certainly could not correctly say that today's GP drivers are "on" their cars; they are well and truly "in" them - almost vanished, in fact.

[Hans Etzrodt]

The term might have originated from such-and-such a jockey/driver "on" such-and-such a horse/car. Then, one day someone may have noticed that the driver was actually sitting "in" the car, whereas the jockey remained "on" the horse.

I think it is high time to change the term "in" to "inside" the car, because nowadays only the driver's helmet is visible with the rest of his body hidden inside the car's body.

[Sid Rutty]

In regards to Chimay, is the circuit that currently hosts a round of the Belgian Production Car Championship and various bike meets the same layout which hosted the frontieres GP'S ?.If anyone can post some pictures of the circuit in its current form i would be most grateful.Darren's page on his website is the only info i can find on this great track.

[fines]

Originally posted by David McKinney
non-starters:
[8] Vandervecken (Alfa Romeo)
[12] Steinbach {Alfa Romeo 2900B)
[30] Serge Pozzoli (Delahaye 135)
[48] Guido Barbieri (Maserati 4CL)
[52] Joe Kelly (Riley)
[56] Raymond Sommer (Maserati 4CL)
[58] Henri Louveau (Delage D6)

David, do you know whether these drivers actually did-not-start (i.e. were present and practiced, but failed to start) or did-not-appear?

[David McKinney]

Sorry to take so long to reply, Fines - I had to go all the way to the other side of the room to take the book off the shelf, then turn the pages - Whew!
The book (Biaumet's) lists the entries, and simply says 'forfait' alongside those I listed as non-starters. The only exception is Pozzoli, who apparently had an accident in practice.

[Yves]

"Forfait" isn't very informative : does that mean they didn't come at all or missed the start for any reason ? On french, forfait means withdraw by its own decision so this non starters could not be there at all or withdrew for mechanical or other performance reasons.

Just a note to say that Serge Pozzoli is [was ?] a very well known french motor racing historian who managed many publications in France in the past.

Y.

[Barry Lake]

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
I think it is high time to change the term "in" to "inside" the car, because nowadays only the driver's helmet is visible with the rest of his body hidden inside the car's body.

Yes, Hans, I too remember the "good old days" when you could see almost all of the driver's helmet. Aaaahh, the late 1990s; they were the days...

[David McKinney]

My point exactly, Yves. The only information I had was that the entries were 'forfait', so I could not tell Fines whether they had broken down in practice (usually expressed as 'DNS' - did not start) or simply hadn't arrived at the meeting ('DNA')
Serge Pozzoli died about five years ago. His grandson Flavien Marçais is a wellknown driver in historic racing and editor of the excellent French magazine "Le Revue de l'Automobile Historique" which reproduces much material from the Pozzoli archive.

[Marcor]

I've read again the Tome 1 of Le Grand Prix des Frontières à Chimay.

The entry list of the 1947 GP des Frontières said that [8] Vandervecken (Alfa Romeo), [12] Steinbach {Alfa Romeo 2900B), [30] Serge Pozzoli (Delahaye 135), [48] Guido Barbieri (Maserati 4CL), [52] Joe Kelly (Riley), [56] Raymond Sommer (Maserati 4CL), [58] Henri Louveau (Delage D6) were 'forfait'. But the text explicitely said that the two French aces who had to be the starts of the meeting, Raymond Sommer and Henry Louveau, didn't not appear at the circuit. They had nevertheless phoned to the organiser to confirm their arrivals. The public and the organisers were a little bit disappointed. This story is confirmed by the newspaper Les Sports.

[Milan Fistonic]

Originally posted by Barry Lake
I can't remember which thread it was in but some time ago there was discussion about when and why writers and commentators used to refer to drivers as being "on" rather than "in" their cars.
The Chimay book refers in the results lists, through to 1959, "(driver) sur (car)" - which, of course, means "on".
Do the French still use this expression? Does anyone know?

This question obviously caused some concern back in the early fifties as evidenced by these letters to Autosport.

From Autosport September 21, 1951

Race Commentaries

When listening to the B.B.C. race commentaries, how many people, I wonder notice the slightly inaccurate description of the commentators? For example “… and streaking through the bend comes Peter Whitehead on the Jaguar,” or Gonzalez on a Ferrari.”
All very trivial, perhaps, but it would certainly be strange to behold the driver of, say, a Cooper, astride his engine cowling, and surely a little uncomfortable. Yes sir, we have Geoff Duke on a Norton, Lester Piggott on the winning horse, Reg Harris on his bike, but please, “Stirling Moss in his Kieft.”

Weston-Super-Mare M. F. Matthews.


From Autosport September 28, 1951

“In” or “On”

I was delighted to see Mr. Matthews comment about race commentators who habitually seat drivers on rather than in their cars. The same thing has irritated me for years. So do the qualifications “the” and “his”, in view of the fact that the car in question probably belongs to a syndicate of some kind, or alternatively, to the driver’s bank manager, so it isn’t his at all. No reference is intended to either of the people or makes cited by Mr. Matthews.
About this “on” business, though, reference to the General Competition Rules of the R.A.C. will show (page 48), that among the duties of the Clerk of the Course is “to ensure that the correct driver is on each automobile”. Furthermore, and however high the superstructures fore and aft may become, there is no denying that with some cars, more of the driver is on than in, so I suppose I must remain…

U. Quantavite Bothweighs.
Liverpool.


From Autosport October 5, 1951

“In” or “On”

In view of Mr. Matthews quibble as to whether drivers should be seated “in” or “on” their cars by commentators, it would be interesting to discover his reaction to an announcement that “so-and-so got into a snake after Stowe Corner”.
Does he speculate on the digestive powers of boaconstrictors?
No, Mr. Matthews, every sport has its special phraseology and motor sport need be no exception. A race commentary without a sprinkling of motor “slang” would surely bevery dull.

“Another Liverpudlian”.
Liverpool.

[LittleChris]

For info, both Chimay books are available here:

http://www.editions-palmier.fr/

The current circuit is about 2.8 miles compared to the original 6.75 miles.

See below for the layout as was and as is.

http://www.racingcircuits.net/

There is also due to be an article in this months Motor Sport.

[MichaelJP]

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
The term might have originated from such-and-such a jockey/driver "on" such-and-such a horse/car. Then, one day someone may have noticed that the driver was actually sitting "in" the car, whereas the jockey remained "on" the horse.

I think it is high time to change the term "in" to "inside" the car, because nowadays only the driver's helmet is visible with the rest of his body hidden inside the car's body.

Wasn't the term "ride" also used in days gone by, even for cars, as in "Bandini is looking for a new ride for 1966"? I've certainly heard uttered by Pete Aron in the film "Grand Prix", but maybe the scriptwriters got it wrong.

- Michael