29 replies to this topic

[john winfield]

I've just been looking at the Silver City Trophy programme from August 1960. I believe that this was the first 'big' meeting on the extended circuit but perhaps someone knows if some smaller events were organised as trial runs before Brands' big day.

The circuit map is interesting, much as I remember it from the late 1960s except for two small details. On the outside of Hawthorns is the 'Portobello Grandstand' - must have been a good viewing point. When was that removed I wonder? Perhaps it was there throughout the 1960s and was demolished when the Hawthorns run-off was extended after Jo Siffert's accident. Also, between Clearways and Top Straight is the 'Little Britches Grandstand'. I was just wondering about the name - anyone know why Little Britches?

[David McKinney]

Also, between Clearways and Top Straight is the 'Little Britches Grandstand'. I was just wondering about the name - anyone know why Little Britches?

A nod to Knickerbrook at Oulton Park, perhaps?

[pete53]

The circuit map is interesting, much as I remember it from the late 1960s except for two small details. On the outside of Hawthorns is the 'Portobello Grandstand' - must have been a good viewing point. When was that removed I wonder? Perhaps it was there throughout the 1960s and was demolished when the Hawthorns run-off was extended after Jo Siffert's accident. Also, between Clearways and Top Straight is the 'Little Britches Grandstand'. I was just wondering about the name - anyone know why Little Britches?

I think it must have gone a before 1968 as that was the first time I ventured round the long circuit (during the course of the BOAC 500). I don't recall seeing a grandstand in that spot but I could be wrong. In fact I have just randomly plucked out a Brands programme from 1964 and whilst showing grandstands it doesn't indicate one at Hawthorns.

[john winfield]

A nod to Knickerbrook at Oulton Park, perhaps?

Not sure where this is going, David, but there's 'Bretelles' at Dijon-Prenois - I think that can mean braces, straps or bra-straps, depending on context!

[john winfield]

I think it must have gone a before 1968 as that was the first time I ventured round the long circuit (during the course of the BOAC 500). I don't recall seeing a grandstand in that spot but I could be wrong. In fact I have just randomly plucked out a Brands programme from 1964 and whilst showing grandstands it doesn't indicate one at Hawthorns.

Thanks Pete. Glad I wasn't going mad as I don't remember one either, having walked around the track, also at a BOAC 500, a year later
than you. If it wasn't there for the GP in 1964 then perhaps it was never built, just wishful thinking in the 1960 programme.

[pete53]

Thanks Pete. Glad I wasn't going mad as I don't remember one either, having walked around the track, also at a BOAC 500, a year later
than you. If it wasn't there for the GP in 1964 then perhaps it was never built, just wishful thinking in the 1960 programme.

However John, an October 1963 programme has a circuit map that includes the Portobello Grandstand so perhaps it was there for a couple of years. Anyone else remember it?

[Tim Murray]

In the programme for the 1964 British (European) GP there's a large aerial photo of the track. At Hawthorn's there's a large area cleared of trees etc, but nothing on it looking like a grandstand. The other grandstands, including Little Britches, are very obvious, and marked. Perhaps the cleared area indicates that they had something planned which never came to fruition, or maybe, as Pete suggests, it had been and gone..

[David McKinney]

Not sure where this is going, David, but there's 'Bretelles' at Dijon-Prenois - I think that can mean braces, straps or bra-straps, depending on context!

Or suspenders, if that takes you fancy (Mind you, that might be the American type of suspender, which it not nearly so exciting)

[taylov]

In the programme for the 1964 British (European) GP there's a large aerial photo of the track. At Hawthorn's there's a large area cleared of trees etc, but nothing on it looking like a grandstand. The other grandstands, including Little Britches, are very obvious, and marked. Perhaps the cleared area indicates that they had something planned which never came to fruition, or maybe, as Pete suggests, it had been and gone..

..and on page 29 of the same programme are a series of in-car photos and again, no sign of the Grandstand in either of the shots of Hawthorn Bend.

Tony

[sterling49]

From my earliest visits to Brands (1961) I never knew of any stands out on the long circuit, ever, but I have been frequently known to be wrong ! What Brands were pretty adept at doing though, was constructing stands of scaffolding, just for the big events, I do remember they did this regularly for the Grand Prix, but again do not remember any on the long circuit..................I really did not know that any of the stands had names, save for the Main Grandstand opposite the Start/Finish line, but stands from Clearways, along the top straight, around to Paddock were erected and dismantled for the big meetings regularly. I was at Brands yesterday and was thinking now of how few stands there are along this stretch now, in the 60's they were dotted right the way along..........................but knowing my memory these days, this was probably all a dream and they were there all of the time !

[glyn parham]

I really did not know that any of the stands had names, save for the Main Grandstand opposite the Start/Finish line, but stands from Clearways, along the top straight, around to Paddock were erected and dismantled for the big meetings regularly. I was at Brands yesterday and was thinking now of how few stands there are along this stretch now, in the 60's they were dotted right the way along..........................but knowing my memory these days, this was probably all a dream and they were there all of the time !

It is quite possible that there were plans for a grandstand at Hawthorns and planning permission was never granted by the local council (although I do believe that the old start line grandstand was built without permission or permission had lapsed and was never renewed) and would certainly explain the clearing. I have fond memories of watching many of the big race meetings in the old scaffold grandstands along the top straight and like Sterling I can remember them being built and removed again after said events when attending clubbies on the short circuit.

Glyn

[Rob29]

Don't remember the name 'Little Britches' but I certainly sat in an open stand in that area for the the first Brands British(European) GP in 1964-Druids in '66.There are of course plenty of places to watch in standing mode but few people now bother.Was watching sidecar racing on TV yesterday and south bank was totally deserted.Stands were even built there for the GPs.100.000 crowds being reported-fleets of buses ferrying people from London & Swanley.
The startline stand I recall the only decent one at a british circuit,with bar & toilets built in,was erected in 1955-lasted 40 years.

[RJE]

It is quite possible that there were plans for a grandstand at Hawthorns and planning permission was never granted by the local council (although I do believe that the old start line grandstand was built without permission or permission had lapsed and was never renewed) and would certainly explain the clearing. I have fond memories of watching many of the big race meetings in the old scaffold grandstands along the top straight and like Sterling I can remember them being built and removed again after said events when attending clubbies on the short circuit.

Glyn

I must admit I can never remember any grandstands out on the long circuit, right from the very begining.

The scafolding stands were, as you say, put up just for big meetings although they were often there the following weekend if you were lucky. It was something to do with local planning laws that only allowed temporary buildings be erected for a few days in each year.

[bradbury west]

Also, between Clearways and Top Straight is the 'Little Britches Grandstand'. I was just wondering about the name - anyone know why Little Britches?

I cannot remember exactly, and Google gives little information, but I recall from my childhood the expression "little britches" being used as an affectionate term towards active children trying hard, based on a character from cowboy stories or films or some such, where the child looked very small on horseback. Possibly the child was an orphan, usual tearjerk stuff. It may have been some reference to the stand standing alone on the top straight looking small, relative to the top banking, like a child on horseback, which led to this late use of a previous expression. The again, I might be completely wrong
Roger Lund

[john winfield]

I cannot remember exactly, and Google gives little information, but I recall from my childhood the expression "little britches" being used as an affectionate term towards active children trying hard, based on a character from cowboy stories or films or some such, where the child looked very small on horseback. Possibly the child was an orphan, usual tearjerk stuff. It may have been some reference to the stand standing alone on the top straight looking small, relative to the top banking, like a child on horseback, which led to this late use of a previous expression. The again, I might be completely wrong
Roger Lund

Thanks Roger - interesting possible explanation. Thanks to everyone else too for the information regarding the Portobello stand that perhaps never was!

[Greystone]

I cannot remember exactly, and Google gives little information, but I recall from my childhood the expression "little britches" being used as an affectionate term towards active children trying hard, based on a character from cowboy stories or films or some such, where the child looked very small on horseback. Possibly the child was an orphan, usual tearjerk stuff. It may have been some reference to the stand standing alone on the top straight looking small, relative to the top banking, like a child on horseback, which led to this late use of a previous expression. The again, I might be completely wrong
Roger Lund

Digging back into the mists of time I'm sure I remember that, back in the 60s/70s era, there was a small children's playground on the outside of the circuit around the exit of clearways area - swings, slides that sort of thing. Perhaps some connection?

Andrew

[pete53]

Digging back into the mists of time I'm sure I remember that, back in the 60s/70s era, there was a small children's playground on the outside of the circuit around the exit of clearways area - swings, slides that sort of thing. Perhaps some connection?

Andrew

I think you are right - at least about there being a children's play area in that location. Whether it has a connection to "Little Britches" .. will we ever know?

[arttidesco]

As I recall when Silverstone and Brands were alternating the British GP late 70's to mid 80's the scaffold stands at Paddock Hill and Copse corners would go up accordingly.

[David McKinney]

Digging back into the mists of time I'm sure I remember that, back in the 60s/70s era, there was a small children's playground on the outside of the circuit around the exit of clearways area - swings, slides that sort of thing. Perhaps some connection?
Andrew

Makes sense to me - as has been pointed out, "little britches" was once a term for playful kids. I'm sure I remember it being applied to me, though it has to have been a good 60 years ago...

[Bloggsworth]

I was there that day and found a tree on the inside of Hawthorns, climbed it and took some photographs on my modified Brownie 127. I remember an MG coming into Hawthorns flat chat, the driver didn't seem to lift off, the car departed the circuit and disappeared into the trees at head height. A short while later a sheepish looking driver emerged from the brush swinging his helmet.

I also remember being there for the INTERCONTINENTAL Formula race the following year, and watching my first racing E-Types and Stirling Moss's 250 Berlinetta with the Rob Walker cigar striped nose.

And the day that Doc Sheppard in his A40 beat the Jaguars in the saloon car race.

I must dig out the photos, I'm sure I have some.

Edited by Bloggsworth, 07 September 2010 - 17:32.

[LittleChris]

Not sure where this is going, David, but there's 'Bretelles' at Dijon-Prenois - I think that can mean braces, straps or bra-straps, depending on context!

Can also mean bypass hence Bretelle Sud ( section built to by pass Gueux village from 1952 ) and Bretelle Nord ( section from what later became Courbe Annie Bousquet to Muizon replacing the Hovette - Garenne road ) at Reims. The Bretelle at Dijon I believe was the short section used for the 1974 French GP before the extension down the hill and back up the other side was built. Must say that bra straps sounds more interesting though

Edited by LittleChris, 07 September 2010 - 21:49.

[Thundersports]

Digging back into the mists of time I'm sure I remember that, back in the 60s/70s era, there was a small children's playground on the outside of the circuit around the exit of clearways area - swings, slides that sort of thing. Perhaps some connection?

Andrew

There was as a child in the 70s I used to enjoy using them....
They had a scaffold stand at Dingle Dell in the late 80s which had a wooden fence round it that used to have stakes from it go "missing" allowing access.

[taylov]

Found my old copy of "The Book of Brands" published in 1960 at the time of the track extension. Its a 36 page softback with a shot of Graham Hill in the front-engined Lotus on the cover.

Page 6 states "For spectators there are now three temporary grandstands, at Paddock Bend, Hawthorn Bend and Clearways (marked "Little Britches" on the map)...." The map of the circuit shows that an area of trees had been cleared halfway round Hawthorns with the seating providing views down Pilgrim's Drop and along the Portobello Straight.

Tony

[Stephen W]

I've just been looking at the Silver City Trophy programme from August 1960. I believe that this was the first 'big' meeting on the extended circuit but perhaps someone knows if some smaller events were organised as trial runs before Brands' big day.

The circuit map is interesting, much as I remember it from the late 1960s except for two small details. On the outside of Hawthorns is the 'Portobello Grandstand' - must have been a good viewing point. When was that removed I wonder? Perhaps it was there throughout the 1960s and was demolished when the Hawthorns run-off was extended after Jo Siffert's accident. Also, between Clearways and Top Straight is the 'Little Britches Grandstand'. I was just wondering about the name - anyone know why Little Britches?

In my copy of the 1962 R.A.C. Motor Sport Year Book (aka Blue Book) as well as the Main Grandstand there are ...

Paddock Hill Grandstand, Portobello Grandstand (at Hawthrorn Hill & Bend, and Little Britches Grandstand on the exit of Clearways. These are the only grandstands at the circuits as the text confirms this. Total capacity for the grandstands is given as 3,250.

[john winfield]

Just resurrecting this old thread having seen Blackjack1967's post in the YouTube thread. He has linked footage, uploaded by machina machina, of Stirling Moss taking a Cooper around the new Brands extension in 1960. And there, at around 1.02, is the Hawthorns/Portobello grandstand. 

 

I would imagine the stand provided good viewing but, looking at the posts above, it must have been dismantled in around 1962/3, never to return.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=b56Df8IaoFo

[pete53]

Just resurrecting this old thread having seen Blackjack1967's post in the YouTube thread. He has linked footage, uploaded by machina machina, of Stirling Moss taking a Cooper around the new Brands extension in 1960. And there, at around 1.02, is the Hawthorns/Portobello grandstand. 

 

I would imagine the stand provided good viewing but, looking at the posts above, it must have been dismantled in around 1962/3, never to return.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=b56Df8IaoFo

Well done John. A 10 year wait for the answer but all the sweeter for it. As you say, a good spot to view from. I wonder why it went? It was obviously an ideal spot to erect a TV camera with a view of Pilgrims Drop, Hawthorn Hill and out to Westfield - could it be that the stand hindered positioning a camera there? Just a thought.

[john winfield]

Well done John. A 10 year wait for the answer but all the sweeter for it. As you say, a good spot to view from. I wonder why it went? It was obviously an ideal spot to erect a TV camera with a view of Pilgrims Drop, Hawthorn Hill and out to Westfield - could it be that the stand hindered positioning a camera there? Just a thought.

 

What's ten years on TNF, Pete, when you're having fun?    Your TV camera suggestion is a definite possibility. And maybe the ravages of the severe winter in 62/63?

 

Another prosaic reason could be simple economics. Ten years later I remember many people were reluctant to base themselves 'out in the country' because there were such good views to be had, and so much activity to watch, in the main bowl of Brands. If, as someone suggested, the Portobello grandstand was regularly dismantled and re-erected (or needed repair after that bad winter), perhaps low spectator demand/ticket sales back in the early 1960s didn't warrant the cost. 

[Doug Nye]

I started work at Brands Hatch in 1963.  I think the Hawthorns stand was considered not to have paid for itself in bookings.  Apart from seeing cars approaching, braking, cornering and accelerating away the view was of only that one corner - whereas the 'stadium view' from almost anywhere in the pits/valley section would have been infinitely preferable. Out at Hawthorns the longeurs between races would have been a real bore...nothing to watch there save a few marshals perhaps eating their sandwiches...

 

DCN

[Paul Parker]

I started work at Brands Hatch in 1963.  I think the Hawthorns stand was considered not to have paid for itself in bookings.  Apart from seeing cars approaching, braking, cornering and accelerating away the view was of only that one corner - whereas the 'stadium view' from almost anywhere in the pits/valley section would have been infinitely preferable. Out at Hawthorns the longeurs between races would have been a real bore...nothing to watch there save a few marshals perhaps eating their sandwiches...

 

DCN

I first went to Brands Hatch for the British GP in 1964, via the Central Line underground and then overland (cannot remember which mainline station in London, that dropped me off somewhere in Kent) where I took a local bus to the circuit.

 

It was a wonderful day, I saw most of the F1 teams and drivers that were accessible and also a very determined Jack Sears winning the GT race after being hauled in by an official because he had started in the wrong place as had Stewart in the Coombs Lightweight E type who moved to pole position and Salvadori in the Atkins Cobra to the second spot leaving Sears on the outside slot.

 

Hard to imagine now that this was nearly 56 years ago as I write this. 

[pete53]

I first went to Brands Hatch for the British GP in 1964, via the Central Line underground and then overland (cannot remember which mainline station in London, that dropped me off somewhere in Kent) where I took a local bus to the circuit.

 

It was a wonderful day, I saw most of the F1 teams and drivers that were accessible and also a very determined Jack Sears winning the GT race after being hauled in by an official because he had started in the wrong place as had Stewart in the Coombs Lightweight E type who moved to pole position and Salvadori in the Atkins Cobra to the second spot leaving Sears on the outside slot.

 

Hard to imagine now that this was nearly 56 years ago as I write this. 

That would probably have been Swanley Station that you disembarked at Paul. For many years London Transport laid on special buses, green country service vehicles, to take racegoers from Swanley Station to the circuit, and back afterwards. This just wasn't for big meetings but lesser ones too.

 

I was there that day too to witness my first ever Grand Prix and to revel in seeing all the top drivers of that era. It was the day after my 11th birthday. I recall managing to edge my way to a spot on the fence at the stretch down from Druids to Bottom Bend.

 

The Sear's Cobra incident that you mentioned famously resulted in a bit of argy-bargy in the pit lane between the official and John Willment (or was it Jeff Uren??)

 

If my memory serves me well adult admission was £1 and that included the programme and race card.