24 replies to this topic

[Dan333SP]

Leafing through an old Ferrari book of mine, I got to the section on the development of the 512BBLM. The book mentions that there was some interest in the late 70s among teams in turbocharging a 512BB to compete with the 935s, and apparently a Honk Kong-based collector had one built and called it the "512 Turbo GTP", giving it a body that was "somewhat reminiscent of the Porsche 917". It never ended up racing because of mechanical difficulties in the drivetrain that were too difficult to sort out, but does anyone have a photo of this car? I'd love to know how a 917-like Ferrari Boxer looks...

[arttidesco]

The only turbo 512 BB I have ever heard of is the Koenig version.

The only Ferrari that competed directly against the 935 I know of was the Jolly Club 308 GTB #18935.

Look forward to seeing the mythical Hong Kong 512 Turbo GTP

[Nordic]

The 512BB/LM was a useful tool in the long distance races of the late 70's early 80's and held up pretty well against the 935 hordes claiming a couple of top 10 results at Le Mans with class wins as well.

I recall seeing the 308 turbo at Silverstone, heck it was a monster and produced the biggest flame outs I had ever seen. I think it was used as a bit of the test bed for the 308 GTO that came along later and the F40 that followed that.

Never heard of a 512 turbo GTP. look forward to seeing what other people know about it.

[f1steveuk]

Actually there was a kit (very detailed body, but underneath a pre made chassis with mounts for an electric motor and batteries and "pop on" suspension) I once had, looked standard-ish, but was titled "Ferrari 512BB Twin Turbo", but I cannot recall who made the kit. The decal sheet had racing roundels.

[Damien Duigan]

G'day all,

Believe it was either #19839 or #20647, both early carburettor 512 BBs delivered thru Jacques Swaters' Francorchamps concession to Mai Tam of Hong Kong and prepared by Jean-Louis Château of France in 1977 for competition, with turbochargers for the 1977 Le Mans race, although it was never run.

Sorry, don't have any period photos.

Plenty of turbo conversions done on Boxers; Koenig in Germany, Al Mardikian in California, Norwood in Texas, Escort Racing in California and various one-offs.

Cheers,
Damien

[Dan333SP]

Found a picture of a very odd looking 512 BB model, it has 917 esque headlights but it can't be said to resemble that car in any way other than that. It also says it's from 1984, so I can't imagine this is the car I was asking about, but does anyone know what the story behind this 512 is?

[Damien Duigan]

Found a picture of a very odd looking 512 BB model, it has 917 esque headlights but it can't be said to resemble that car in any way other than that. It also says it's from 1984, so I can't imagine this is the car I was asking about, but does anyone know what the story behind this 512 is?

G'day again,

Different car - #35529, one of the Michelotto BB/LMs built for Fabrizio Violati in 1981 (to replace his earlier spec car #28601) with unique body characteristics. Raced in 1981 then again in 1984 (#27 as run at Le Mans that year). Still part of the Maranello Rosso in San Remo.

Cheers,
Damien

[arttidesco]

I remember seeing #35529 at Le Mans in 1981, plum ugly compared to #31859 for example, though it made all of the correct noises ... until it retired.

[Tuboscocca]

Where is TNF member Nathan Beehl...
he can certainly tell more??
Regards Michael

[Cynic2]

G'day all,

Believe it was either #19839 or #20647, both early carburettor 512 BBs delivered thru Jacques Swaters' Francorchamps concession to Mai Tam of Hong Kong and prepared by Jean-Louis Château of France in 1977 for competition, with turbochargers for the 1977 Le Mans race, although it was never run.


Cheers,
Damien

G'Day, Damien,

There's a picture of the Jean-Louis Chateau BB/Turbo in race trim -- the only one I recall seeing -- either in the Fitzgerald-Merritt-Thompson Ferrari book, or more likely, in Jon Thompson's Ferrari Boxer book. I'll try to get down to my office today to see if i can find them. It seems possible that Nathan would have included a photo in his BB book; again, that's down in my office.

Many (many, many) years ago ESDO models produced a 1/43 scale kit of the JL-Chateau Boxer, also available as a built-up resin model by BOF-ESDO. I had the latter in my collection (which was sold in the late '80s to a gentleman in Jacksonville, Florida). That collection included models of virtually every 512 BB/LM, many of the rarest supplied by Nathan Beehl and Paolo Tron.

As you noted, the other car was supplied to Violati sans body, so that his improvements to the standard BB/LM body could be included in the new body he had built.

I'll try to find the books later today.

David Seibert / Cynic

[Tuboscocca]

G'Day, Damien,

There's a picture of the Jean-Louis Chateau BB/Turbo in race trim -- the only one I recall seeing -- either in the Fitzgerald-Merritt-Thompson Ferrari book, or more likely, in Jon Thompson's Ferrari Boxer book. I'll try to get down to my office today to see if i can find them. It seems possible that Nathan would have included a photo in his BB book; again, that's down in my office.

Many (many, many) years ago ESDO models produced a 1/43 scale kit of the JL-Chateau Boxer, also available as a built-up resin model by BOF-ESDO. I had the latter in my collection (which was sold in the late '80s to a gentleman in Jacksonville, Florida). That collection included models of virtually every 512 BB/LM, many of the rarest supplied by Nathan Beehl and Paolo Tron.

As you noted, the other car was supplied to Violati sans body, so that his improvements to the standard BB/LM body could be included in the new body he had built.

I'll try to find the books later today.

David Seibert / Cynic

Great David/Cynic!!
Page 143 in Thompson's Boxer book.BTW Nothing found in Nathan's book.
B/W photo showing the car in a typical Le Mans garage!!
Thanks Michael

[Cynic2]

Great David/Cynic!!
Page 143 in Thompson's Boxer book.BTW Nothing found in Nathan's book.
B/W photo showing the car in a typical Le Mans garage!!
Thanks Michael

Michael, Damien, et al,

And there are also three B/W photos (undoubtedly the same) on page 255 of "Ferrari", by Fitzgerald, Merritt, and Thompson (Fourth Edition). Two are in a garage that for several reasons appears to be in France rather than Hong Kong.

David

Edited by Cynic2, 10 September 2010 - 16:16.

[Tuboscocca]

Michael, Damien, et al,

And there are also three B/W photos (undoubtedly the same) on page 255 of "Ferrari", by Fitzgerald, Merritt, and Thompson (Fourth Edition). Two are in a garage that for several reasons appears to be in France rather than Hong Kong.

David

David,Damien (like in good old telaio-times!)
Wimpffen has Michael Maitam (F,driver) Chateau as entrant as DNA (page1118).
The 2-volume Moity (Le Mans 1923-92) doesn't mention him.
Maybe the NEW edition (3 Volumes 1923-2010),as they have promised the DNS also!
Best regards Michael

[Tuboscocca]

Michael, Damien, et al,

And there are also three B/W photos (undoubtedly the same) on page 255 of "Ferrari", by Fitzgerald, Merritt, and Thompson (Fourth Edition). Two are in a garage that for several reasons appears to be in France rather than Hong Kong.

David

Just looked at the Fitzgerald/Thompson photos (3):
The (ugly) nose looks a bit like the late 917/30..
I can't see any headlights, no perspexwindows for the headlights.
But on the (what we would today call) splitter is an vertical pin??And beside the car lay two 'naked' big headlights? Was it intended to mount them only in the evening hours???
Just guessing.
Does someone know, whether the car took part in the Le Mans testdays???
It's becoming more and more interesting.
Regards Michael

[Dan333SP]

Great! Thanks for the info, everyone... Cynic, if you had the time or the means it'd be amazing if you could scan the photos from your book, or even just take a pic of them and post them on the forum, I'd love to see this modified bodywork.

[Jesper O. Hansen]

What kind of horsepower would be available from a turbo 512BB? And what would the weight be? I don't know what a turbocharged 5 liter engine should weigh according to the IMSA GTX regulations, but I would bet on something more than the 1100-1150 kgs that the normally aspirated 512 carried at the time.
In other words, would the gain in horsepower validade the gain in weight. The normally aspirated 512 was considered underpowered and overweight - like the BMW M1 - compared to the Porsche 935. Yet, at the 1981 Le Mans race a Charles Pozzi enteret 512 won the IMSA GTX class when all the 935s either failed or were delayed. This was the only blot on the 935 Le Mans cv, winning 11 from 12 possible class wins during 1976-1982.

Jesper

Edited by Jesper O. Hansen, 11 September 2010 - 08:19.

[Tuboscocca]

What kind of horsepower would be available from a turbo 512BB? And what would the weight be? I don't know what a turbocharged 5 liter engine should weigh according to the IMSA GTX regulations, but I would bet on something more than the 1100-1150 kgs that the normally aspirated 512 carried at the time.
In other words, would the gain in horsepower validade the gain in weight. The normally aspirated 512 was considered underpowered and overweight - like the BMW M1 - compared to the Porsche 935. Yet, at the 1981 Le Mans race a Charles Pozzi enteret 512 won the IMSA GTX class when all the 935s either failed or were delayed. This was the only blot on the 935 Le Mans cv, winning 11 from 12 possible class wins during 1976-1982.

Jesper

Jesper , the FMT book says 520 HP,but there were mayor lubrication problems..
IMO 520 is not so much more as the 'normal' 512BBs?
Regards Michael

[AMICALEMANS]

The Chateau 512 BB : pics could be seen here : http://www.autodiva....p...34&start=40

[Dan333SP]

Interesting, that's definitely the car my book was talking about with its 917/30 nose. Not nearly as pretty as the actual BBLMs, but an interesting solution most certainly.

[Tuboscocca]

The Chateau 512 BB : pics could be seen here : http://www.autodiva....p...34&start=40

Thank you great colour photo, AND without headlights!!

Michael

[Tuboscocca]

Interesting, that's definitely the car my book was talking about with its 917/30 nose. Not nearly as pretty as the actual BBLMs, but an interesting solution most certainly.

DAN , may I ask to which book you are referring ('my book').
Thanks Michael

[Dan333SP]

It's a book I found in my brother's closet when helping him move, it's called "The Classic Ferrari" by Geoffrey Eaton. Seems to be written in 1983 as the 126C2 was the last Formula 1 car detailed in the book.

[Tuboscocca]

It's a book I found in my brother's closet when helping him move, it's called "The Classic Ferrari" by Geoffrey Eaton. Seems to be written in 1983 as the 126C2 was the last Formula 1 car detailed in the book.

Thanks. I would like to find such a book too.
Luckily I have it!! Godfrey or Geoffrey Eaton was a important person and archivist(?) of the FerrariClub UK. He also published the club magazine.
regards Michael

[Jesper O. Hansen]

Jesper , the FMT book says 520 HP,but there were mayor lubrication problems..
IMO 520 is not so much more as the 'normal' 512BBs?
Regards Michael

I would have been expecting something like 700-800 bhp, but at 520 the original transmission would likely hold up. That again would suggest that the turbo idea was never fully explored.

Jesper

[arttidesco]

The Chateau 512 BB : pics could be seen here : http://www.autodiva....p...34&start=40

Gosh ! What an ugly monster ! Thanks for sharing